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***** USA This is the Wrong Time to Physically Confront China Now *****

Willing to escalate to a new military conflict/war with China now?

  • Yes, it is worth the risk now

    Votes: 20 32.3%
  • No, but in the near future, yes

    Votes: 9 14.5%
  • No, we should resolve this peacefully and diplomatically instead and work together on global issues

    Votes: 19 30.6%
  • No, we should concede to China's sovereignty and work together on global issues

    Votes: 14 22.6%

  • Total voters
    62
You might wanna read my post again. I said I thought you were uncomfortable with China and the U.S. being at odds, not that you're uncomfortable being Chinese. How you feel doesn't affect me in any way so I don't know why it would be unfortunate for me.

I've spent quite a bit of time answering all your questions. Now why don't you tell me what the US should do in light of China's actions?
@DrawingDead , my country of origin and adopted homeland are one and the same (the USA). You need to keep in mind that America's population of citizens is DIVERSE to this day.

As for Washington, we should concede to China's interests in their backyard and negotiate with her neighbors to settle all their disputes. All this unnecessary tension between Washington and Beijing distracts us from effectively moving this world forward and tackling global issues together. We in the West cannot do this alone.
 
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@DrawingDead
As for Washington, we should concede to China's interests in their backyard and negotiate with her neighbors to settle all their disputes. All this unnecessary tension between Washington and Beijing distracts us from effectively moving this world forward and tackling global issues together. We in the West cannot do this alone.

Concede to China's interests? And let them swallow up everything they can? Thanks for the suggestion. But we're not that stupid.

China doesn't help with any international issues. China doesn't do anything unless it sees financial gain in it. To pretend like they are a major player in the international arena outside their immediate financial interests is a fallacy that only the Chinese and a couple of their followers believe. Everyone else can see China for what it really is.

"We in the west" may not be able to do it alone but unfortunately, it is our burden to carry. Counting on China to help with anything that doesn't benefit China at the expense of others would show extremely poor judgement on our part.

Edit: Read this post by a Chinese member. Pay particular attention to the part about possession being 9/10ths of the law. That what's really going on SCS today. To pretend like we are somehow harassing the poor Chinese is a fallacy that will find no takers outside Chinese community and that of China's lackeys

Who Would Win A Conflict In The South China Sea: The Infographic
 
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Concede to China's interests? And let them swallow up everything they can? Thanks for the suggestion. But we're not that stupid.

China doesn't help with any international issues. China doesn't do anything unless it sees financial gain in it. To pretend like they are a major player in the international arena outside their immediate financial interests is a fallacy that only the Chinese and a couple of their followers believe. Everyone else can see China for what it really is.

"We in the west" may not be able to do it alone but unfortunately, it is our burden to carry. Counting on China to help with anything that doesn't benefit China at the expense of others would show extremely poor judgement on our part.

Edit: Read this post by a Chinese member. Pay particular attention to the part about possession being 9/10ths of the law. That what's really going on SCS today. To pretend like we are somehow harassing the poor Chinese is a fallacy that will find no takers outside Chinese community and that of China's lackeys

Who Would Win A Conflict In The South China Sea: The Infographic
@DrawingDead , stop being so paranoid. China is not going to swallow/annex the neighboring countries around the South China Sea. Your fear of China has gotten the best of you. China has huge economic weight and huge population. Their burden will be the world's burden. We cannot reject China's help in the long-term on global issues.
 
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@DrawingDead , stop being so paranoid. China is not going to swallow/annex the neighboring countries around the South China Sea. Your fear of China has gotten the best of you. China has huge economic weight and huge population. Their burden will be the world's burden. We cannot reject China's help in the long-term on global issues.

China isn't offering to help. So there is nothing to reject.
 
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We don't need the US to collapse. That's not part of our calculus. In a few years, White warhawks are going to retire. Hispanic population is becoming majority and elect their first mexican president. Latino nations tend to be a lot less aggressive than WASP nations. So really all we need to do is to hold the line for a couple of decades and everything will be fine.
 
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Did you lose your memory and forgot about AIIB by China? Infrastructure building and financing throughout Asia is a big step so far. The world will benefit from it.

If that was the criteria for allowing a state to encroach on other state's space, we should pretty much inherit the world along with the other developed countries for 70 years of doing that through the IMF and World Bank.
 
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If that was the criteria for allowing a state to encroach on other state's space, we should pretty much inherit the world along with the other developed countries for 70 years of doing that through the IMF and World Bank.
China's AIIB has not violated any country's space. You are speaking in abstract terms.
 
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WEEKEND EDITION MAY 29-31, 2015
Pivot Insanity
Why is Obama Goading China?
by MIKE WHITNEY
US Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter is willing to risk a war with China in order to defend “freedom of navigation” in the South China Sea. Speaking in Honolulu, Hawaii on Wednesday, Carter issued his “most forceful” warning yet, demanding “an immediate and lasting halt to land reclamation” by China in the disputed Spratly Islands.

Carter said: “There should be no mistake: The United States will fly, sail, and operate wherever international law allows, as we do all around the world.” He also added that the United States intended to remain “the principal security power in the Asia-Pacific for decades to come.”

In order to show Chinese leaders “who’s the boss”, Carter has threatened to deploy US warships and surveillance aircraft to within twelve miles of the islands that China claims are within their territorial waters. Not surprisingly, the US is challenging China under the provisions of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, a document the US has stubbornly refused to ratify. But that’s neither here nor there for the bellicose Carter whose insatiable appetite for confrontation makes him the most reckless Sec-Def since Donald Rumsfeld.

So what’s this really all about? Why does Washington care so much about a couple hundred yards of sand piled up on reefs reefs in the South China Sea? What danger does that pose to US national security? And, haven’t Vietnam, Taiwan and the Philippines all engaged in similar “land reclamation” activities without raising hackles in DC?

Of course, they have. The whole thing is a joke. Just like Carter’s claim that he’s defending the lofty principal of “freedom of navigation” is a joke. China has never blocked shipping lanes or seized boats sailing in international waters. Never. The same cannot be said of the United States that just recently blocked an Iranian ship loaded with humanitarian relief–food, water and critical medical supplies–headed to starving refugees in Yemen. Of course, when the US does it, it’s okay.


The point is, Washington doesn’t give a hoot about the Spratly Islands; it’s just a pretext to slap China around and show them who’s running the show in their own backyard. Carter even admits as much in his statement above when he says that the US plans to be “the principal security power in the Asia-Pacific for decades to come.” China knows what that means. It means “This is our planet, so you’d better shape up or you’re going to find yourself in a world of hurt.” That’s exactly what it means.

So let’s cut to the chase and try to explain what’s really going on, because pretty soon no one is going to be talking about Ukraine, Syria or Yemen because all eyes are going to be focused on China where our madhatter Secretary of Defense is trying to start a third world war.

Here’s the scoop: Washington has abandoned its China policy of “containment” and moved on to Plan B: Isolation, intimidation and confrontation. In my opinion, this is why the powerbrokers behind Obama dumped Hagel. Hagel just wasn’t hawkish enough for the job. They wanted a died-in-the-wool, warmongering neocon, like Carter, who is, quite likely, the most dangerous man in the world.

Carter’s assignment is to implement the belligerent new policy of incitement and conflict. His actions will prove to the skeptics that Washington is no longer interested in integrating China into the US-led system. Rather, China has become a the biggest threat to Washington’s plan to pivot to Asia. And, just to remind readers how important the pivot is to America’s future, here’s an Obama quote I lifted up from Tom Engelhardt’s latest titled “Superpower in Distress”:

“After a decade in which we fought two wars that cost us dearly, in blood and treasure, the United States is turning our attention to the vast potential of the Asia Pacific region….As we end today’s wars, I have directed my national security team to make our presence and mission in the Asia Pacific a top priority.”

The so called pivot is Washington’s “top priority”, which means that China’s unprecedented ascendency must be slowed and its regional influence curtailed. Thus, the dust up over the Spratly Islands will be used in the same way the US has used other incidents, that is, by demonizing China’s leaders in the media, by assembling a coalition that will publicly oppose China’s activities, by implementing harsh economic sanctions, by launching asymmetrical attacks on China’s currency and financial markets, by excluding China from critical trade agreements, and by inciting social unrest (color-coded revolution) through the support of dissidents living in China. These are the all-too-familiar signs of US meddling directed at “emerging rivals” who threaten US global hegemony. China now finds itself at the top of the list.

US powerbrokers know that bullying China involves significant risks for themselves and the world. Even so, they have decided to pursue this new policy and force a confrontation. Why? Why would they embark on a strategy so fraught with danger?

The answer is: They don’t see any way around it. They’ve tried containment and it hasn’t worked. China’s growing like crazy and its regional influence threatens to leave the US on the outside looking in. Carter even admitted as much in a recent speech he gave at the McCain Institute at Arizona State University. He said: “We already see countries in the region trying to carve up these markets…forging many separate trade agreements in recent years, some based on pressure and special arrangements…. Agreements that…..leave us on the sidelines. That risks America’s access to these growing markets. We must all decide if we are going to let that happen. If we’re going to help boost our exports and our economy…and cement our influence and leadership in the fastest-growing region in the world; or if, instead, we’re going to take ourselves out of the game.”

See? It’s all about markets. It’s all about money. Here’s more from Carter’s speech: (The) ” Asia-Pacific…is the defining region for our nation’s future”… “Half of humanity will live there by 2050″ and that “more than half of the global middle class and its accompanying consumption will come from that region.”….”There are already more than 525 million middle class consumers in Asia, and we expect there to be 3.2 billion in the region by 2030…President Obama and I want to ensure that… businesses can successfully compete for all these potential customers. ….Over the next century, no region will matter more… for American prosperity.”

This is why the Obama administration is making a general nuisance of itself in the South China Sea. It’s so the big US mega-corporations will have new customers for their IPADs and toaster ovens.

For that, they are willing to risk a nuclear war.


MIKE WHITNEY lives in Washington state. He is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (AK Press). Hopeless is also available in a Kindle edition. He can be reached at fergiewhitney@msn.com.
Why is Obama Goading China? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
 
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WEEKEND EDITION MAY 29-31, 2015
Pivot Insanity
Why is Obama Goading China?
by MIKE WHITNEY

So what’s this really all about? Why does Washington care so much about a couple hundred yards of sand piled up on reefs reefs in the South China Sea? What danger does that pose to US national security? And, haven’t Vietnam, Taiwan and the Philippines all engaged in similar “land reclamation” activities without raising hackles in DC?

Of course, they have. The whole thing is a joke. Just like Carter’s claim that he’s defending the lofty principal of “freedom of navigation” is a joke. China has never blocked shipping lanes or seized boats sailing in international waters. Never. The same cannot be said of the United States that just recently blocked an Iranian ship loaded with humanitarian relief–food, water and critical medical supplies–headed to starving refugees in Yemen. Of course, when the US does it, it’s okay.


The point is, Washington doesn’t give a hoot about the Spratly Islands; it’s just a pretext to slap China around and show them who’s running the show in their own backyard. Carter even admits as much in his statement above when he says that the US plans to be “the principal security power in the Asia-Pacific for decades to come.” China knows what that means. It means “This is our planet, so you’d better shape up or you’re going to find yourself in a world of hurt.” That’s exactly what it means.
So Ashton Carter is a warhawk eh? If it happens, this will be much worse than the bloody fiasco of the Vietnam War.
 
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OK, since many posts were edited and erased, the last part of this conversation lacks in logic.
Here is a logic stand.
I'll invite members to use their Internet connections to research the islands under construction
or expansion by China as well as international law of the seas. This way they'll discover that :
the average distance to mainland China of the reefs being worked on in the "Chinese meridional
sea" ( Subi, Cuarteron and other Spratleys ) is 550 NM while Philippines are from 300 to less than
200 NM away.
south-china-sea.jpg

Then they can research the real ( not imaginary claims by any given government )
status of these waters to find that they're international ones. Last, they can check the veracity of
"attacks" or provocation by American planes and vessels by checking that these were in such
international space at the time of the alleged mishaps.
For referral, the red line below is that of China's claims versus the lawful lines of territorial waters
of the nations that also share this body of water and simply can't be expected to move somewhere
else or submit to Beijing.
1088px-South_China_Sea_vector.svg.png

Last are the shipping lines and the Strait of Malacca, one of the energy transport choke points on our planet :
maplngbig.png


Now, all honest posters will be equipped to judge who is honest and who is just greedy.
But having checked the above, ask yourselves : We heard China's contentions but how about
South Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia, Indonesia and even more so Vietnam?
Don't they deserve liberty and international waters too?
Half baked articles ( the above byMike Whitney ) by an outlet that describes its own work thus :
"Ours is muckraking with a radical attitude and nothing makes us happier than when CounterPunch readers write in to say how useful they've found our newsletter in their battles against the war machine, big business and the rapers of nature."
Welcome to CounterPunch
although they since delete that page as some posts were in this thread, it won't change facts.

BTW, I'm rather left wing myself which means I support the right to freedom and existence of
ALL nations … not that of the one which complains the loudest solely.

Good day all, Tay.
 
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Carter even admitted as much in a recent speech he gave at the McCain Institute at Arizona State University. He said: “We already see countries in the region trying to carve up these markets…forging many separate trade agreements in recent years, some based on pressure and special arrangements…. Agreements that…..leave us on the sidelines. That risks America’s access to these growing markets. We must all decide if we are going to let that happen. If we’re going to help boost our exports and our economy…and cement our influence and leadership in the fastest-growing region in the world; or if, instead, we’re going to take ourselves out of the game.”

That says it all. Loud and clear: It is great power competition and all the talk about freedom of navigation, China's expansion and gobbling up stuff etc. is just a facade.

This is actually what China knows US knows China knows.
 
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