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US - Azerbaijan relations | A new paradigm

Talking about trust, Turkey joined Korea war for Americas interest did America joined our war against pkk?

Note that Turkey joined NATO after the Korean War started. Do you think that's coincidence? Isn't it more reasonable to believe that Turkey's show of good faith, in turn, gave NATO confidence that Turkey would be a trusted partner?

Turkey didn't join selflessly, it has gained immensely from NATO membership (e.g. NATO paid for much of Turkey's air defense network, the US trusts Turkey enough to set up an F-35 assembly line there, etc.). Let's not pretend that this is a one-sided relationship, with only Turkey giving, and only the US taking.

Where is the main money source of pkk, not European countrys who give political asylum to pkk members who later deal drugs and recruit fighters from Europe?
And you come here and say we arent trustable because we dont want to join a war in a clusterfuck called Middle East... :disagree:
Seems like Turkey needs to gain Wests trust but West doesnt need to gain Turkish trust for you, pretty much explains why 70% of Turks wanted to join EU in 2004 but 70% are against it today.

I am perfectly comfortable with Turkey refusing to help the US in its attempts to crush ISIS before it turns into a major threat, so long as Turkey at no point in the future asks for NATO assistance against ISIS. Is that a fair deal?

If what you say is true, and Turkey doesn't trust NATO, shouldn't Turkey leave NATO?

Come on, @xenon54 , you're a level-headed fellow. I'm sure you don't view the relationship that simplistically.
 
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I'm sure Azeri diaspora has some influence. But it would also be dishonest to deny that it is totally dwarfed by the Armenian diaspora. The Armenian-American community is older, larger and more established. They produced celebrities like Kim Kardashian, Cher, and Andre Agassi. They made nearly all US states recognize the Armenian genocide, which has become a household name (whereas Khojali is, unfortunately, fairly unknown).

As I told you before, the number of states supporting our cause, is passing half of states very soon. About the so called Armenian genocide, it is not the case though, and only a limited number of cities have accepted it.
What matters is that we have abundant resources of money while Armenians and their diaspora are poor. If they have Kardashian, we can buy Tori Black( :lol: ) and lindsay lohan.
Also, you forgot the huge number(more than 100K) of South Azeris who live in USA, and are not considered in statistics as Azerbaijanis ;) But are active supporters of Azerbaijan in USA ;) Also, Turkish American society consisted of huge businessmen, ... are also supporters of Azerbaijan.
If these Armenian immigrants could have such huge influence, they would not let states to accept Khojali genocide one after another one ;) Every thing happens with a reason in this world ;)
I don't believe this is true. The more Europe's energy security exacerbates, the more it will have to depend on US shale oil developments. It's one reason the US has applied such immense pressure for the EU to sanction Iran, even though it is so totally contrary to Europe's interests.
What it has to do with gas?
Are you saying Azerbaijan started the Chechenya insurgency, or is capable of starting another one? I find it hard to believe, because 1. They are Sunni, and you are Shia, 2. They are Caucasian, and you are Turkic. They only point of commonality is "Islam", but as your contempt for the "Ummah" has shown, that's not a very strong link at all.
You are totally wrong. I don't blame you since you are not a caucasian and our region is not famous in the world, but is one the most complicated regions of the world.

Armenians are not indigenous people of Caucasus, but are Eastern Anatolians. and are hated by caucasians(even by christian caucasians like georgians) because they are russian stooges, not indigenous, occupied caucasus lands, and betrayed caucasians in the past.
On the other hand, We are the Caucasians(almost half of Caucasus population are Azeraijanis ;) ) Also, Remember the thousands of Chechens and Dagestanis who fought for Azerbaijan against Armenia. Also, in contrast to ME, we are not sectarian, and care more for our blood than religion. That's how we have hold a country consisted of 70/30 percentage of Shia/Sunnis united. A few number of Chechen, living in a valley located in Georgia(less than 10,000 person), are the only exception who are Naqshbandi sufis, and are religious. Even they love shia imams. They are famous for the leaders they provided in Syria, but this valley is an exception in Caucasus.

I'm inclined to believe that if there is any foreign hand capable of directing the Chechens, it would only be Saudi Arabia. Maybe ISIS too. But not you.
Saudis have no influence in Caucasus. We are not into ummah stuff like others, and to be honest, we look down on Arabs(I, personally do not favor looking down on any ethnicity). So, no caucasian would be influenced by an arab, nor consider them equal ;) But, read about Imam Shamil and such people who were favoring Azeri Qajar turks for decades. I, as a Qajar myslef, know it very well.
Anyway, for your final points:
1. I think in 2008, Russia was still holding out for a "reset" in relations with the US, and so didn't want to act too forcefully in Georgia. But that reset happened and amounted to nothing, and now Russia knows that the West will only settle for Russia's complete destruction, and won't pull back any punches anymore. Now if Georgia acts insolently, Russia will decisively carve out a land corridor from South Ossetia to Armenia and dismantle the BTC pipeline, Crimea-style.
Wrong. Russia had rights on crimea, as a consistent part of Russia until 1950s and as a region with overwhelmingly Russian population. Russia cannot do so in georgia, since the georgian capital is located at the middle of such route, and the region is purely georgian and Azeri, and no ossetian or Russian live in that route. Russia has no capability to do so, since EU, USA, Turkey(with more than 100 billions of dollars trade with russia in next coming years) would fiercely oppose it.
2. South Azerbaijan is not a contiguous territory and can't connect to Azerbaijan's Caspian ports unless transiting through hostile Iranian territory. Unless you want to airlift oil supplies now?
I said in long term. The situation of South Azerbaijan has gotten very heated, if you know the internal situation of that region.
 
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Note that Turkey joined NATO after the Korean War started. Do you think that's coincidence? Isn't it more reasonable to believe that Turkey's show of good faith, in turn, gave NATO confidence that Turkey would be a trusted partner?
Ofcourse its not, its probably the reason why Turkey joined NATO in the first place, there was a serious treat of a Soviet invasion and Europeans needed a bullwark against soviets, its something like a symbiosis.


Turkey didn't join selflessly, it has gained immensely from NATO membership (e.g. NATO paid for much of Turkey's air defense network, the US trusts Turkey enough to set up an F-35 assembly line there, etc.). Let's not pretend that this is a one-sided relationship, with only Turkey giving, and only the US taking.
No im not implying that NATO membership was something bad, in fact it was the best thing that happened in 90 years of Republic history, our price was being the first target of Soviet nuclear arsenal in case of a war for 4 decades.


I am perfectly comfortable with Turkey refusing to help the US in its attempts to crush ISIS before it turns into a major threat, so long as Turkey at no point in the future asks for NATO assistance against ISIS. Is that a fair deal?
If Isis is a treat to a NATO member then its Turkey, in contrary to most NATO members isis allready killed security personnels, kidnapped Embassy staff and attepted a bomb attack.

Turkey allready offered help to Coalition but under the condition that we dont stay alone later but west doesnt want to set boots on ground. Turkey demands a buffer zone since 3 years now, who knows if isis would be that strong today if we established a buffer zone in the beginning. Ofcourse Erdogan also did many wrong things such as letting the border open but than again we would see headlines such as ''Turkey is leaving refugees to death''


If what you say is true, and Turkey doesn't trust NATO, shouldn't Turkey leave NATO?
Come on, @xenon54 , you're a level-headed fellow. I'm sure you don't view the relationship that simplistically.
I didnt bring up the trust issue, it was you so i presented you just a couple exsamples from our point of view regarding trust.

No matter what we are discussing here it wont change the reality that the only Alliance Turkey can be a member is NATO since our place is between democratic nations.
I wont bring up Turkic union which is utopia under these circumstances anyway.
 
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Excellent points. It's no coincidence that all 5 of these points were once upon a time seen as the value Turkey could provide, but Turkey's attempted rapprochement with Iran undermined #1, Turkey's unwillingness to help in areas that don't directly threaten its own homeland undermines #2, for #3, Azerbaijan is a supplier vs. Turkey's role as transit point, #4 was undermined by the AKP, and again, AKP is busy undermining #5. Again, it's going too far to say that Azerbaijan could replace Turkey, but it's clear that the attraction to Azerbaijan is based on the same factors that attracted us to Turkey.

Thanks for the insight.
1) am no expert, but that was a farce of the govt imo. I still cannot understand why Turkey ever stood up for Iran, especially a huge fail in my book was during the sanction voting at UN in 2010. Not sure what was going on in the minds of the decision makers. However, let's hope Erdogan and Davutoglu realize by now that Iran is up to no good.
2) which areas are you talking about? I am sure Turkish people and govt know better for ourselves in what areas it's safe and profitable to commit and where not. Turkey is one of the few nato countries that keeps investing in its military while most nato countries are forced to tone down their expenditure, plus it has contributed a lot under UN and nato in Korea, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Sudan, current refugees etc. not enough?
4) no such thing. the world, through mainly western media influence, has been screaming Turkey becoming a second 2nd Iran since akp took the helm, but Turkey, despite all its flaws, is in fact more democratic than before. i dont blame you, i blame the one who manages what you get to see and read.
5) If the Turkish govt stops meddling too much with Arab affairs and put more pressure on Iran, it would be better. US on the hand should stop behaving hypocritically towards Turkey, which is actually the cause why the US is kinda shunned among Turks which in turn is represented in the politics, and act like a real ally for a change. Besides, i greatly worry about any promises the US make to Azerbaijan, simply because i just cant see the US committing seriously to help Azerbaijan, like entering a war to protect Azerbaijan from Russia or Iran. An increasing assertive Russia means that alternatives and counterbalances must be sought in the Caucasus. Turkey will become more relevant in nato again and co-operation between the west and Azerbaijan will probably hit higher levels, that is for sure if Russia keeps going on like this.

Nonetheless, as a Turk i see potential between Azerbaijan, the US and Turkey once the US and Turkey come up with a sincere strategy that hopefully will fix the mistrust between our countries. US blames Turkey for its incomprehensible strategy, Turkey blames the US for the same thing. A sincere change is needed from both sides, but especially from the US' side, if i may say so.
According to this research, Turks are among the nations that view US very negatively. Aside from this survey, a big part of the Turkish members on PDF also have their fair share of complaints about the US. So, I am not that shocked to see such scores. Want co-operation, respect and attraction, then please also question the shortcomings of your country towards us.
Chapter 1. Attitudes toward the United States | Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project



Talking about trust, Turkey joined Korea war for Americas interest did America joined our war against pkk?

Where is the main money source of pkk, not European countrys who give political asylum to pkk members who later deal drugs and recruit fighters from Europe?
And you come here and say we arent trustable because we dont want to join a war in a clusterfuck called Middle East... :disagree:
Seems like Turkey needs to gain Wests trust but West doesnt need to gain Turkish trust for you, pretty much explains why 70% of Turks wanted to join EU in 2004 but 70% are against it today.
bro, Gulen is literally in the US. it's known that this bastard's organization is capable of infiltrating up to high ranks and leak sensitive tapes (like that MIT tape). for the sake of Turkiye (not akp or any party), this Gulen organization must get shut down. Yet USA doesnt kick him out of the US. Imagine Snowden being in Turkey, US would have threatened Turkey to get him back to the US. hypocrites, as i wrote before, yet we are the one to be blamed for causing bad ties with the US.
 
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but there is no shortcut to rebuilding trust with America and Europe (and it appears Turkey is not be interested in rebuilding relations with Israel at all, so we'll put that aside as a non-possibility).

Look pal, we not your legionnaires. If your trust against Turks will deteriorate because we are not fighting and sacrificing Turkish people's life to clean out your mess.... than we don't your trust nor your friendship.
 
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North or South Azerbaijan?

Note that Turkey joined NATO after the Korean War started. Do you think that's coincidence? Isn't it more reasonable to believe that Turkey's show of good faith, in turn, gave NATO confidence that Turkey would be a trusted partner?

Turkey didn't join selflessly, it has gained immensely from NATO membership (e.g. NATO paid for much of Turkey's air defense network, the US trusts Turkey enough to set up an F-35 assembly line there, etc.). Let's not pretend that this is a one-sided relationship, with only Turkey giving, and only the US taking.
Turkey went to war for your interests in Korea. Which war did US support us? On Cyprus? Did do anything about PKK during your 10 year occupation of Iraq? It must be give and take. Not only take take and take. And afterwards insult us because we don't clean up your mess.

Azerbaijan will be joining the Eurasian Union.
Yes, but without China
 
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US congressman on the payroll of Azerbaijani oligarchs are not enough to change US policy in the Caucuses, and even if they would, Russia's influence and geographical proximity is still enough to combat American influence in their backyard. Besides, the Armenian lobby is far more influential than the Azerbaijani lobby. Turks are strategically shortsighted (Davatoglu being the prime example of Turkish stupidity), so this is nothing more than rhetoric support for the exchange of money. Similar to US congressman declaring their support for MEK, only for some good old dollars.
 
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Excellent points. It's no coincidence that all 5 of these points were once upon a time seen as the value Turkey could provide, but Turkey's attempted rapprochement with Iran undermined #1, Turkey's unwillingness to help in areas that don't directly threaten its own homeland undermines #2, for #3, Azerbaijan is a supplier vs. Turkey's role as transit point, #4 was undermined by the AKP, and again, AKP is busy undermining #5. Again, it's going too far to say that Azerbaijan could replace Turkey, but it's clear that the attraction to Azerbaijan is based on the same factors that attracted us to Turkey.

Thanks for the insight.

1) USA should stop supporting PKK terrorist organisation.
2) USA should stop bombing civilians.
3) USA should stop treating Muslims as potential terrorists.
4) USA should respect human rights.
5) USA should stop dictating international trade and international relations of sovereign countries.

Then we can talk about cooperation.
 
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Some people here are angry at Turkey, not because of ISIS issue, but because Turkey dared to criticize Israel.

On topic, the Armenian lobby in the US can crush the Azerbaijan lobby with one punch. It's no contest.
 
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I suspect that Azerbaijan will increasingly be viewed by Washington as the ally that it always wished Turkey would be. I realize that Turkey and Azerbaijan share much stronger bonds than the US and Azerbaijan could establish, and therefore this would not be an attempt to drive a wedge between the two. However, I suspect that as far as security interests are concerned, we probably have more in common with Azerbaijan than we do with Turkey (whose foreign policy has been essentially incomprehensible in the last several years).

It is not unreasonable to expect a rapid strengthening of ties, especially if the nuclear negotiations with Iran fail.
you do realize that Azerbaijan is a horrible totalitarian regime
 
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you do realize that Azerbaijan is a horrible totalitarian regime

Yes, that has not been an impediment before. Turkey also does not have the best history of democracy, but it's still a member of NATO. This is about interests, and the interests of the US and the interests of Turkey have severely diverged. Azerbaijan's and the US's interests are converging.
 
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Yes, that has not been an impediment before. Turkey also does not have the best history of democracy, but it's still a member of NATO. This is about interests, and the interests of the US and the interests of Turkey have severely diverged. Azerbaijan's and the US's interests are converging.
then say it like it is dont make aizerbaidchan something up to be that it isnt, you spoke about values
 
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then say it like it is dont make aizerbaidchan something up to be that it isnt, you spoke about values

Shared values provide good political cover, and make collaboration easier. That said, we have collaborated many times in the past with dictators who do not share our values, if the strategic interests were compelling enough. Azerbaijan presents such a case. Is Russia any different?
 
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