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U.S. Sends Second Carrier to Asia Amid Tensions with China

I understand that sending CBGs into China's back yard can be seen as threatening. I also understand that China has the right to intercept spy planes off of its coast.

The problem in this particular case, though, is our history. Remember the first Hainan Island incident. A Chinese fighter jet should have no reason to behave like this towards a slow, unarmed, unescorted plane. It should intercept and shadow, sure, but don't play chicken in the air. The first time a collision happens, tempers flare, but diplomacy can soothe the situation. The second time, I have no idea what would happen, but why would China risk this? I see zero payoff for China to send a mentally unstable (or incompetent) pilot to do this kind of patrol when we already saw what happened the last time China sent out a mentally unstable/incompetent pilot in 2001.

Compounding the problem is that China could have responded neutrally, saying something along the lines of "we take these allegations seriously, and will investigate.". You see? No apology, no loss of face, but simultaneously reassure the US that China is a rational actor, with a professional military--and most importantly, that the political echelon is actually in control of the military, which is quietly an open question here in the US. Instead, the Chinese government issued some internally inconsistent statement (to put it diplomatically) about international law, and China's rights. Of course, this is not evidence of a "responsible power" who respects and upholds the rules of the game, and of course it does not demonstrate "a new type of great power relationship.". If we don't know what to expect from China (since it doesn't follow "the rules") then we will be suspicious of China. If we are suspicious, next time we will send the plane with a fighter escort.

Now the US is sending spy planes with fighter escorts to gather intel on China. Naturally, tensions will rise. What has China gained by having its incompetent pilot harass our unarmed planes? Escalation. For a leadership that prides itself on pragmatism, this is a terrible blunder, and possibly a display of incompetence in itself (or again, possibly a sign that the political echelon does not control the military, which is terrifying).

Finally, the US has decades of experience with challenges to our territorial airspace by the USSR, so when Russia sent its Tu-95s within 50 miles of California, we didn't buzz them, barrel roll on top of them, or play chicken with them. We handled it professionally (just like Russia does with our patrols). Why shouldn't we expect the same of China? Chinese leaders and Chinese soldiers are not children who pull pranks. This is serious business, not the time to play games. The proportional response by China is to mirror our actions by sending patrols to the US, like the USSR used to do.

In short, I understand Chinese discomfort, but the Chinese reaction seems calculated to increase tensions, which will only increase the discomfort. What is China playing at, here?

Lol mentally unstable? only the mentally unstable can't live in peace but find opportunity to stir up the trouble thousand miles away from their own homeland.:coffee:
 
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Lol mentally unstable? only the mentally unstable can't live in peace but find opportunity to stir up the trouble thousand miles away from their own homeland.:coffee:

thousand miles can now be traveled in less than 2 hrs underwater
 
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Lol mentally unstable? only the mentally unstable can't live in peace but find opportunity to stir up the trouble thousand miles away from their own homeland.:coffee:

Hawaii, Guam, Saipan, alliances with Japan and the Philippines--we are a Pacific power, and we are not going anywhere. China can recognize this, and work with us through clear and open lines of communication, and we both get richer and prosper. Or China can play chicken with us and see how many times it wins (remind me, what is China winning, exactly?), and what happens when it finally goes too far (remind me, how does China benefit from this outcome?). If buzzing an unarmed spy plane is not a mentally unstable act, you will be able to easily and clearly explain how China benefits from this, especially in the context of the Hainan Island incident. I am open minded and await your response.

China is benefitting immensely from the status quo. It's beyond me why China would prefer a tinderbox scenario to the status quo.
 
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I understand that sending CBGs into China's back yard can be seen as threatening. I also understand that China has the right to intercept spy planes off of its coast.

The problem in this particular case, though, is our history. Remember the first Hainan Island incident. A Chinese fighter jet should have no reason to behave like this towards a slow, unarmed, unescorted plane. It should intercept and shadow, sure, but don't play chicken in the air. The first time a collision happens, tempers flare, but diplomacy can soothe the situation. The second time, I have no idea what would happen, but why would China risk this? I see zero payoff for China to send a mentally unstable (or incompetent) pilot to do this kind of patrol when we already saw what happened the last time China sent out a mentally unstable/incompetent pilot in 2001.

Compounding the problem is that China could have responded neutrally, saying something along the lines of "we take these allegations seriously, and will investigate.". You see? No apology, no loss of face, but simultaneously reassure the US that China is a rational actor, with a professional military--and most importantly, that the political echelon is actually in control of the military, which is quietly an open question here in the US. Instead, the Chinese government issued some internally inconsistent statement (to put it diplomatically) about international law, and China's rights. Of course, this is not evidence of a "responsible power" who respects and upholds the rules of the game, and of course it does not demonstrate "a new type of great power relationship.". If we don't know what to expect from China (since it doesn't follow "the rules") then we will be suspicious of China. If we are suspicious, next time we will send the plane with a fighter escort.

Now the US is sending spy planes with fighter escorts to gather intel on China. Naturally, tensions will rise. What has China gained by having its incompetent pilot harass our unarmed planes? Escalation. For a leadership that prides itself on pragmatism, this is a terrible blunder, and possibly a display of incompetence in itself (or again, possibly a sign that the political echelon does not control the military, which is terrifying).

Finally, the US has decades of experience with challenges to our territorial airspace by the USSR, so when Russia sent its Tu-95s within 50 miles of California, we didn't buzz them, barrel roll on top of them, or play chicken with them. We handled it professionally (just like Russia does with our patrols). Why shouldn't we expect the same of China? Chinese leaders and Chinese soldiers are not children who pull pranks. This is serious business, not the time to play games. The proportional response by China is to mirror our actions by sending patrols to the US, like the USSR used to do.

In short, I understand Chinese discomfort, but the Chinese reaction seems calculated to increase tensions, which will only increase the discomfort. What is China playing at, here?

2001 was a different time, what happened then was a defense of national pride rather than national security. 100 years of humiliation has left China ultra sensitive. China can be seen as a person with a chip on his shoulder, over thinking anything and everything.

I doubt China felt threatened at the time, but 5 years from the Strait crisis and add to the constant US pressure, especially regarding the harsh WTO conditions, which worked to our favor as it turned out, made China desperate to take a stand.

So while the incident seems innocent and isolated, but in reality it's resentment built up over years of tension.


The harsh truth right now is China lacks the efficiency and command structure to effectively tackle these situations, our military doctrine and command structure as well as other military ideologies are changing, but it's a slow process, the old timers need to be replaced first.

Give us 10 years, and we can more effectively handle these incidents, but today, we simply can't.

Side note, our pilots flying 200+ hours, they are on par with American pilots in terms of hours, maybe they lack experience in terms of international exercises, but they don't lack the skill the Americans have. So you have nothing to worry about. The days of us bumping planes is over. We are no longer that weak.


You must also consider, China isn't the USSR, USSR can never challenge US on the economy side of things, we will surpass US on total national strength by no later than 2023. Which means USSR had to deal with things in a way that saves them face while also not being able to do what Americans can.

We on the other hand could do what America could in time, so we want to leave that option open for the future. By 2020, even conservative estimates puts Chinese military spending at about 250 billion dollars a year, and that doesn't include quite a few things like R&D, nuclear and related projects. J-20 budget is not included in the budget, neither are any of our engine programs.




The Chinese end game and Russia is not the same, we are not trying to discourage such actions, we are holding firm until we can do the same. Remember 2000 years of imperial history makes us a very much imperial nation, it's just at present we can't. Not to worry, if history is any guide, we have withdrew into ourselves a few times, and each time, we came out swinging. One of the reasons we are not only the last remaining ancient civilization, but also bigger than ever.

Hawaii, Guam, Saipan, alliances with Japan and the Philippines--we are a Pacific power, and we are not going anywhere. China can recognize this, and work with us through clear and open lines of communication, and we both get richer and prosper. Or China can play chicken with us and see how many times it wins (remind me, what is China winning, exactly?), and what happens when it finally goes too far (remind me, how does China benefit from this outcome?). If buzzing an unarmed spy plane is not a mentally unstable act, you will be able to easily and clearly explain how China benefits from this, especially in the context of the Hainan Island incident. I am open minded and await your response.

China is benefitting immensely from the status quo. It's beyond me why China would prefer a tinderbox scenario to the status quo.

We are benefiting because we are going to go the distance, we are like a successful **** star, to use a bad analogy, we are willing to go further hence we are successful, but it's hardly a desirable situation.

America benefits far more in the current political system, than we do.

China being recognized will not only further us diplomatically and politically, but also economically.

We are not playing Chicken, this time it is you that is making more than it is. Yea it works both ways.


Hainan was a different time as I said, you can't use that time to judge today. Why? We grew 26 times our original size since 89, while America grew 3 times. We are a completely different nation every few years.

In terms of benefits, we don't really benefit, one of the draw backs of lack of experience.
 
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Hawaii, Guam, Saipan, alliances with Japan and the Philippines--we are a Pacific power, and we are not going anywhere. China can recognize this, and work with us through clear and open lines of communication, and we both get richer and prosper. Or China can play chicken with us and see how many times it wins (remind me, what is China winning, exactly?), and what happens when it finally goes too far (remind me, how does China benefit from this outcome?). If buzzing an unarmed spy plane is not a mentally unstable act, you will be able to easily and clearly explain how China benefits from this, especially in the context of the Hainan Island incident. I am open minded and await your response.

China is benefitting immensely from the status quo. It's beyond me why China would prefer a tinderbox scenario to the status quo.

To be honest, I think we cannot rule out the factor of rightt wing components of the Chinese military leadership , who act opposite to the political leadership. The recent Chinese Premier's visit to India and promise of a cease in Chinese border incursion was dismantled last week when PLA had entered 25 km deep into Indian territory. While I do believe that for the most part the Chinese military swear fealty to the CPC, there are segments of the military brass that propose actions that are contrary to political positions. Thus said, it is important for the United States and partners to be cautious about the situation. This might visualize a 'crack' within the system. Contingency plans should be prepared.

Hainan was a different time as I said, you can't use that time to judge today. Why? We grew 26 times our original size since 89, while America grew 3 times. We are a completely different nation every few years.

Naturally because China was considered a 3rd world in the late 80s, as compared to the United States, a post-industrialized nation. Given the introduction of China to the WTO, the linear growth was expected. The United States , like many of the highly industrialized nations, cannot industrialize further because it has already reached saturation point. Its simple economics.

Yit = Ait. F( Kit, Hit, Lit) i = country t =time


Y= output over time= Gross National Product

K= Stock of Capital;H= Human capital; L = Labour

A = Total Factor Productivity TFP


upload_2014-8-23_20-24-4.png
 
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2001 was a different time, what happened then was a defense of national pride rather than national security. 100 years of humiliation has left China ultra sensitive. China can be seen as a person with a chip on his shoulder, over thinking anything and everything.

I doubt China felt threatened at the time, but 5 years from the Strait crisis and add to the constant US pressure, especially regarding the harsh WTO conditions, which worked to our favor as it turned out, made China desperate to take a stand.

So while the incident seems innocent and isolated, but in reality it's resentment built up over years of tension.


The harsh truth right now is China lacks the efficiency and command structure to effectively tackle these situations, our military doctrine and command structure as well as other military ideologies are changing, but it's a slow process, the old timers need to be replaced first.

Give us 10 years, and we can more effectively handle these incidents, but today, we simply can't.

Side note, our pilots flying 200+ hours, they are on par with American pilots in terms of hours, maybe they lack experience in terms of international exercises, but they don't lack the skill the Americans have. So you have nothing to worry about. The days of us bumping planes is over. We are no longer that weak.


You must also consider, China isn't the USSR, USSR can never challenge US on the economy side of things, we will surpass US on total national strength by no later than 2023. Which means USSR had to deal with things in a way that saves them face while also not being able to do what Americans can.

We on the other hand could do what America could in time, so we want to leave that option open for the future. By 2020, even conservative estimates puts Chinese military spending at about 250 billion dollars a year, and that doesn't include quite a few things like R&D, nuclear and related projects. J-20 budget is not included in the budget, neither are any of our engine programs.




The Chinese end game and Russia is not the same, we are not trying to discourage such actions, we are holding firm until we can do the same. Remember 2000 years of imperial history makes us a very much imperial nation, it's just at present we can't. Not to worry, if history is any guide, we have withdrew into ourselves a few times, and each time, we came out swinging. One of the reasons we are not only the last remaining ancient civilization, but also bigger than ever.



We are benefiting because we are going to go the distance, we are like a successful **** star, to use a bad analogy, we are willing to go further hence we are successful, but it's hardly a desirable situation.

America benefits far more in the current political system, than we do.

China being recognized will not only further us diplomatically and politically, but also economically.

We are not playing Chicken, this time it is you that is making more than it is. Yea it works both ways.


Hainan was a different time as I said, you can't use that time to judge today. Why? We grew 26 times our original size since 89, while America grew 3 times. We are a completely different nation every few years.

In terms of benefits, we don't really benefit, one of the draw backs of lack of experience.

1). China is not benefitting? And yet you grew your economy 26x by your calculation since 1989? Please reconcile. I see that as a tremendous benefit.

2). You dismiss an event from 13 years ago as "a different time," but reach back decades and even centuries to justify your grievances against the rest of the world? Please reconcile.

3). I don't doubt that China is proud of its imperial history, but if it wishes to become an imperial power once again, it should realize that any acts to realize such ambitions will be interpreted as hostility, and will be met with hostility. I suppose that since China is the center of the world and doesn't need anyone else (per the logic of point #1), China would be fine with a hostile world. But as Mike Tyson said, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." Things are great for China right now, but it's China's right to derail all of that in the name of ego.

I tend to think you're not reading the political echelon correctly, based on the policies and priorities pursued since 1989, but it's clear that Chinese thinking is increasingly inscrutable to me, so it's equally likely that I am wrong. But if I am wrong, we can conclude that the CCP is not a pragmatic actor, after all.
 
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Anyone know the total number of fighter aircrafts in service in Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and the Philippines against the total number of fighter aircrafts in service in China?
 
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1). China is not benefitting? And yet you grew your economy 26x by your calculation since 1989? Please reconcile. I see that as a tremendous benefit.

2). You dismiss an event from 13 years ago as "a different time," but reach back decades and even centuries to justify your grievances against the rest of the world? Please reconcile.

3). I don't doubt that China is proud of its imperial history, but if it wishes to become an imperial power once again, it should realize that any acts to realize such ambitions will be interpreted as hostility, and will be met with hostility. I suppose that since China is the center of the world and doesn't need anyone else (per the logic of point #1), China would be fine with a hostile world. But as Mike Tyson said, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." Things are great for China right now, but it's China's right to derail all of that in the name of ego.

I tend to think you're not reading the political echelon correctly, based on the policies and priorities pursued since 1989, but it's clear that Chinese thinking is increasingly inscrutable to me, so it's equally likely that I am wrong. But if I am wrong, we can conclude that the CCP is not a pragmatic actor, after all.

1) I never said not benefiting, I said not benefiting as much if we were in a position of power. You must admit, in the current scheme of things, America is benefiting far more, and one of the reasons for the pivot is to hold onto those advantages.

2) I'm not sure what's tripping you up, they are two different aspects. 13 years ago was a different time, back then SU-27 was our only fourth gen fighter, and air force today has two generals in the military committee.

The grievances we drew from is more or less the same, but the situation is different. Our capabilities have changed, you wouldn't approach a situation the same given more experiences and choices would you?

The end result differ only in details, but the overall goal has not changed. In the grand scheme of things, China still wants America out, but only this time, we don't have to bump a plane out the sky to make a stand.


3) Things are not great for China right now, but they will be. 7 years war made the alliance go up against Prussia, and threatened its existence, but by the end, Prussia was part of the great power of Europe. Hostility is expected, but once some realize that it's futile they will relent.

During the warring states, the hegemon always had to war to prove itself, and Qin even faced a 6 nation alliance, but after the alliance was crushed, so was any other attempt on containing Qin.

To be the dominant power, you have to take risks.



Your American thinking is just that, American. You haven't really thought about it in terms of Chinese situation from China's perspective. Why would you, but if you could, you would see, a lot of these supposed dangers are not much more than a last ditch effort to contain a force that cannot be contained.

We are actually a lot closer to victory than total ruin.


China is pragmatic, but like always, nothing is 100%, mistakes, inexperience, interests and other things occasionally get in the way. The reason you can't understand these policies is because, for one, it's not 100% consistent, and America never went through this, due to the uniqueness, only the new world can offer.
 
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Hawaii, Guam, Saipan, alliances with Japan and the Philippines--we are a Pacific power, and we are not going anywhere. China can recognize this, and work with us through clear and open lines of communication, and we both get richer and prosper. Or China can play chicken with us and see how many times it wins (remind me, what is China winning, exactly?), and what happens when it finally goes too far (remind me, how does China benefit from this outcome?). If buzzing an unarmed spy plane is not a mentally unstable act, you will be able to easily and clearly explain how China benefits from this, especially in the context of the Hainan Island incident. I am open minded and await your response.

China is benefitting immensely from the status quo. It's beyond me why China would prefer a tinderbox scenario to the status quo.

US can cozy and build any alliance it wants but if at the expense of China's interest then we certainly not gonna sit idlely. When you sent your spy plane to our border and expect us to be nicely and work with you in order to get richer and prosper? you just don't send the right message. As for the air intercept incident, each has it own interpretation, China has not considered it as violation of international rule by buzzing around the spay plane.

And sorry to say this, China worked hard to earn what we deserved, we didn't get any free lunch from US.: our people have to work with sweat and blood in order to product cheap good to lowering American inflation, not to mention that we have to pollute our environment with that...so China is not the only one who benefitting in this relation.
 
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There are 90 F-18s and assorted fighters per Carrier, the fact that there are 2 means that these CBGs can launch oer 180 fighters at any given time. Let's be pragmatic as well, we all know that 1 CBG may have 3-5 nuclear submarines attached, one sub has the capability to launch strategic thermonuclear warheads. So, imagine 2 CBGS = 6-10 Nuclear Subs.

This does not take into consideration Ticonderoga Class Cruisers and their Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, not including the destroyers.

Its a threat, especially for the PLAN's South Sea Fleet.

You have many good points. But there are no SSBN attach to a carrier battle group. So there are no strategic warheads accompany any carriers. Carriers are not strategic weapons in today's sense. They are more for fighting theater warfare. When push come to shove. US will only rely on SSBNs. Any surface ships are useless. Even a moderate technology subs can sink the surface ship.

Hawaii, Guam, Saipan, alliances with Japan and the Philippines--we are a Pacific power, and we are not going anywhere. China can recognize this, and work with us through clear and open lines of communication, and we both get richer and prosper. Or China can play chicken with us and see how many times it wins (remind me, what is China winning, exactly?), and what happens when it finally goes too far (remind me, how does China benefit from this outcome?). If buzzing an unarmed spy plane is not a mentally unstable act, you will be able to easily and clearly explain how China benefits from this, especially in the context of the Hainan Island incident. I am open minded and await your response.

China is benefitting immensely from the status quo. It's beyond me why China would prefer a tinderbox scenario to the status quo.

Its a game of cat and mouse. The Chinese brass need to remind their CCP handler that they are important. But they won't start a war as the Chinese military is making a lot of money building frigs and washer and dryer that you use every day.
 
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China is no Iraq or Syria. China has 9.5 million square kilometers of territory. HUGE weapons inventory. Never ever mess with China.
 
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You have many good points. But there are no SSBN attach to a carrier battle group. So there are no strategic warheads accompany any carriers. Carriers are not strategic weapons in today's sense. They are more for fighting theater warfare. When push come to shove. US will only rely on SSBNs. Any surface ships are useless. Even a moderate technology subs can sink the surface ship.

United States Strike Group is composed of 1 carrier, 1 or 2 cruiser, a destroyer squadron, the carrier air wing (70-80 units), and attached submarines (can be SSNs or SSBNs), a logistic ship and a supply ship.


Attached is a US Navy Strike Group in fanning position:

U.S.+Navy+%28USS+John+C.+Stennis+the+CVN-74%29+John+C.+Stennis+aircraft+carrier+battle+group+show+of+force+on+the+fleet+in+the+Pacific.+John+C.+Stennis+aircraft+carrier+battle+group+was+ordered+to+the+deployment+6th+%281%29.jpg


Note, the subs usually are dispatched before the CBG , or one is covering the flank.
 
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Not a single American serviceman or servicewoman needs to die for nothing near / over / in China. But if American servicemen and servicewomen must die, then so be it. China is not a Non Nato Major Ally. China is a global rival of America.

Over a million Japanese soldiers got killed or amputated in China between 1937 and 1945. No country can conquer China.
 
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