Type 052D DDG News & Discussions

[Dante80]

Submarine are unable to do the global projection needed for a major naval power. Soviet make such mistakes, PLAN will not follow. How do you support amphibious operation with submariner? How do you provided air defense for marine landing? Humanity mission , evacuation and rapid search and rescue operation with helo?

Submarine can’t do that.

The Soviet Union did not really have a "global projection" strategic mandate. Thus, they really did no mistake. PLAN also does not have a global projection strategic mandate. The far seas fleet (when it will be commissioned as such) is going to work on the africa<->asia trade route line.

PLAN needs (and has under development) a pretty substantial submarine and ASW program for four main reasons.

1. A nuanced, dependable and substantial second strike capability against counterforce decapitation strikes, as part of the Nuclear Triad.
2. The ability to guard against point 1.
3. The ability to achieve naval supremacy inside the second island chain (which is a difficult theater for PLANs SS and SSG fleet).
4. The capability of countering USNs extensive and substantial SSN program and doctrine of operations.

 

[Beast]

The Soviet Union did not really have a "global projection" strategic mandate. Thus, they really did no mistake. PLAN also does not have a global projection strategic mandate. The far seas fleet (when it will be commissioned as such) is going to work on the africa<->trade route line.

PLAN needs (and has under development) a pretty substantial submarine and ASW program for four main reasons.

1. A nuanced, dependable and substantial second strike capability against counterforce decapitation strikes, as part of the Nuclear Triad.
2. The ability to guard against point 1.
3. The ability to achieve naval supremacy inside the second island chain (which is a difficult theater for PLANs SS and SSG fleet).
4. The capability of countering USNs extensive and substantial SSN program and doctrine of operations.

The China indeed have a global strategic plan. President Xi has reshaped the whole PLA and making PLAN and PLAAF the priority to have global projection. Increasing PLAN marine strength from 25000 to at least 100000 is a statement of this plan.

China are no more content with just local defense. With China trade and investment going global, such global power projection is needed to safeguard the asset. China strategies dont always stay the same, it will changes according to time and circumstances need.

 

[english_man]

To get back on topic, I count 17 052Ds in all (active, building, fitting out). I haven't seen any concrete evidence for PLAN building the 18th hull. Do we have more information on this?

Yes, i thought it was 17 052D's...........but according to the Chinese WIKI page on the 052D.........both the 18th & 19th vessels (no's 163 & 164) are under early slipway construction stages at Jiangnan shipyard. When completed, they are apparently due to join the 2nd Destroyer detachment at the Southern fleet!
Further reference is that there will be a 20th vessel (no 124), due to be built at Dalian, and will join the 10th Destroyer detachment at the Northern fleet.

Just had another look at the 052D page................and its said there are 8 052D's in active service, with another one the "Guiyang" to become the 9th sometime mid year?

For further reference, Chinese WIKI also confirms there are 6 055's being built as of now, of which the first 4 will be joining the 1st Destroyer detachment at the Northern fleet, and the 5th and 6th vessels to be joining the 9th Destroyer detachment at the Southern fleet.

Whoever the person, or people are who keep updating the Chinese Navy pages at the Chinese WIKI site, they seem very clued up with the developments of the Chinese Navy, as they seem to be very accurate with their info.....so far!

 

[LKJ86]

 

[samsara]

Yes, i thought it was 17 052D's...........but according to the Chinese WIKI page on the 052D.........both the 18th & 19th vessels (no's 163 & 164) are under early slipway construction stages at Jiangnan shipyard. When completed, they are apparently due to join the 2nd Destroyer detachment at the Southern fleet!
Further reference is that there will be a 20th vessel (no 124), due to be built at Dalian, and will join the 10th Destroyer detachment at the Northern fleet.

Just had another look at the 052D page................and its said there are 8 052D's in active service, with another one the "Guiyang" to become the 9th sometime mid year?

For further reference, Chinese WIKI also confirms there are 6 055's being built as of now, of which the first 4 will be joining the 1st Destroyer detachment at the Northern fleet, and the 5th and 6th vessels to be joining the 9th Destroyer detachment at the Southern fleet.

Whoever the person, or people are who keep updating the Chinese Navy pages at the Chinese WIKI site, they seem very clued up with the developments of the Chinese Navy, as they seem to be very accurate with their info.....so far!

My earlier post (end of September 2017) about the transition from Type 052D to Type 052E seems to be accurate. 052D ends up in 20 units is the most likely outcome.

“Article mentioned that China's Type 052D destroyer procurement number is more than 16 ships, has gradually entered the end of construction, at the same time it's also mentioned that the Type 052E destroyer will be the next successors and PLAN Aegis destroyer ship procurement may reach 40 units, and mentioned that Type 055 destroyer units in service may reach 12~20 units.”（小飞猪观察）

有文章提到，我国的052D驱逐舰采购数量超过16艘，目前已经渐渐的进入了建造尾声，同时还提到052E驱逐舰也将会采购这一数量，海军的“神盾”级驱逐舰将达到40艘，同时还提到055驱逐舰的服役数量也会有12艘-20艘。（小飞猪观察）

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-navy-plan-news-discussions.84213/page-266#post-9893962

 

[帅的一匹]

Six 052c/eighteen 052D/DDG/eighteen 052E/twenty 055/and thirty 054A Frigates and eighty 056 corvettes.

 

[LKJ86]

View attachment 469839

 

[wulff]

The development of Chinese submarines is in secret, and no news is good news.

The subsurface domain is indeed where PLAN is figured to be most vulnerable (both submarine and anti-submarine warfare to be exact). Have in mind though that the fact they "appear investing the least" does not really say much. This impression is simply the result of profound secrecy in this sector of PLAN procurement.

Which - btw - should say a lot about how important PLAN considers its submarine program to be.

To get back on topic, I count 17 052Ds in all (active, building, fitting out). I haven't seen any concrete evidence for PLAN building the 18th hull. Do we have more information on this?

You know nothing

Six 052c/eighteen 052D/DDG/eighteen 052E/twenty 055/and thirty 054A Frigates and eighty 056 corvettes.

That last post is exactly why I said the PLAN appears to be investing the least in its subsurface force. Since 2002-03 the ships they have inducted/are building:

6 055 (at least 8 planned)
6 052C
19 052D (26 planned) (some say 40)

2 054
30 054A
24 054B planned (likely)

6 071 (likely more to come)
2 075 under construction (at least 4 planned)
2 aircraft carriers (3rd being built)

That is 100+ blue water ships that will join the fleet by ~2025. I'm leaving out the 46 or so 056s and the 13-14 replenishment ships they have built as well.

On the other hand, when it comes to SSNs, the PLAN has hardly got 5 (or maybe 6 or 7 max):
2 093
2 093 with the modified sail (those are the ones seen in the recent fleet review)
1 093B with the VLS hump (the one that surfaced off the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands in January)


That is 5 confirmed (correct me here) compared to the 50+ the USN has. This is a massive disparity in numbers (notwithstanding the huge qualitative advantage the USN has over the PLAN in terms of technology, and in trained crews).

5 boats in service for a class that was first launched way back in 2002.

The next-gen submarine (095 class) will not be launched till 2020 at the very least with commissioning to be in 2022 or even later. From what we have heard, only 8 boats planned to be built by 2030.

I suspect this situation has some relation to the rumors of PLAN top brass being dominated by proponents of carrier aviation.

 

[english_man]

@wulff

I don't think its a case of the Chinese top naval brass ignoring the sub-service fleet, as they do have a pretty decent non nuclear submarine fleet............but probably that out of all the high tech hurdles to overcome, getting a first class nuclear sub design correct, has has been the hardest to overcome. I suspect the Chinese Navy have got to the point now where they don't want to build a few subs quickly which turn out to be mediocre, but have spent the recent years in making sure the design of the next class of nuclear submarine is going to be very good, and hence can be built eventually in a decent number to satisfy the Navy.
Anyway, i would hazard a guess they have a good design now, otherwise they wouldn't of built this new submarine construction facility?............as they say all good things come to those who wait!

 

[LKJ86]

That last post is exactly why I said the PLAN appears to be investing the least in its subsurface force. Since 2002-03 the ships they have inducted/are building:

6 055 (at least 8 planned)
6 052C
19 052D (26 planned) (some say 40)

2 054
30 054A
24 054B planned (likely)

6 071 (likely more to come)
2 075 under construction (at least 4 planned)
2 aircraft carriers (3rd being built)

That is 100+ blue water ships that will join the fleet by ~2025. I'm leaving out the 46 or so 056s and the 13-14 replenishment ships they have built as well.

On the other hand, when it comes to SSNs, the PLAN has hardly got 5 (or maybe 6 or 7 max):
2 093
2 093 with the modified sail (those are the ones seen in the recent fleet review)
1 093B with the VLS hump (the one that surfaced off the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands in January)


That is 5 confirmed (correct me here) compared to the 50+ the USN has. This is a massive disparity in numbers (notwithstanding the huge qualitative advantage the USN has over the PLAN in terms of technology, and in trained crews).

5 boats in service for a class that was first launched way back in 2002.

The next-gen submarine (095 class) will not be launched till 2020 at the very least with commissioning to be in 2022 or even later. From what we have heard, only 8 boats planned to be built by 2030.

I suspect this situation has some relation to the rumors of PLAN top brass being dominated by proponents of carrier aviation.

Just be patient, and you will be shocked in the near future.

 

[Figaro]

The Soviet Union did not really have a "global projection" strategic mandate. Thus, they really did no mistake. PLAN also does not have a global projection strategic mandate. The far seas fleet (when it will be commissioned as such) is going to work on the africa<->asia trade route line.

PLAN needs (and has under development) a pretty substantial submarine and ASW program for four main reasons.

1. A nuanced, dependable and substantial second strike capability against counterforce decapitation strikes, as part of the Nuclear Triad.
2. The ability to guard against point 1.
3. The ability to achieve naval supremacy inside the second island chain (which is a difficult theater for PLANs SS and SSG fleet).
4. The capability of countering USNs extensive and substantial SSN program and doctrine of operations.

Of course the PLAN does have a global projection mandate. That’s why they’re building enormous offensive carrier battle groups. The naval doctrines if the USSR and PLAN are completely different. Of course, the submarine is still extremely important to the PLAN ... the new head of PLAN procurement is a submariner.

That last post is exactly why I said the PLAN appears to be investing the least in its subsurface force. Since 2002-03 the ships they have inducted/are building:

6 055 (at least 8 planned)
6 052C
19 052D (26 planned) (some say 40)

2 054
30 054A
24 054B planned (likely)

6 071 (likely more to come)
2 075 under construction (at least 4 planned)
2 aircraft carriers (3rd being built)

That is 100+ blue water ships that will join the fleet by ~2025. I'm leaving out the 46 or so 056s and the 13-14 replenishment ships they have built as well.

On the other hand, when it comes to SSNs, the PLAN has hardly got 5 (or maybe 6 or 7 max):
2 093
2 093 with the modified sail (those are the ones seen in the recent fleet review)
1 093B with the VLS hump (the one that surfaced off the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands in January)


That is 5 confirmed (correct me here) compared to the 50+ the USN has. This is a massive disparity in numbers (notwithstanding the huge qualitative advantage the USN has over the PLAN in terms of technology, and in trained crews).

5 boats in service for a class that was first launched way back in 2002.

The next-gen submarine (095 class) will not be launched till 2020 at the very least with commissioning to be in 2022 or even later. From what we have heard, only 8 boats planned to be built by 2030.

I suspect this situation has some relation to the rumors of PLAN top brass being dominated by proponents of carrier aviation.

First, we don’t have any accurate numbers of the 093 or 094 at all ... so simply using the guesses of PLAN enthuasists is not a good gauge of the nuclear fleet. Regarding the USN having 50+ nuclear subs, that is its global force. Only a certain portion can be allocated to deter or fight China ... and regarding the supposed “huge advantage”, we also don’t know that. Western analysts base their Chinese nuke sub estimations/technology level off reports from the mid 2000s. Surely, the PLAN has not been sitting idle for almost 15 years now. If you want more up to date info, I suggest reading Chinese academic journals on developments such as rim-drives.

 

[wulff]

Of course the PLAN does have a global projection mandate. That’s why they’re building enormous offensive carrier battle groups. The naval doctrines if the USSR and PLAN are completely different. Of course, the submarine is still extremely important to the PLAN ... the new head of PLAN procurement is a submariner.


First, we don’t have any accurate numbers of the 093 or 094 at all ... so simply using the guesses of PLAN enthuasists is not a good gauge of the nuclear fleet. Regarding the USN having 50+ nuclear subs, that is its global force. Only a certain portion can be allocated to deter or fight China ... and regarding the supposed “huge advantage”, we also don’t know that. Western analysts base their Chinese nuke sub estimations/technology level off reports from the mid 2000s. Surely, the PLAN has not been sitting idle for almost 15 years now. If you want more up to date info, I suggest reading Chinese academic journals on developments such as rim-drives.

We dont have exact figures, but we do have rough numbers. There are 4-5 94s and 5-7 093s around. The 095 has not been launched. The PLAN may have built an extra sub or two, but nobody is really expecting a dozen subs popping up with the PLAN that nobody noticed. You can't really hide a submarine launch from satelites, nor can you hide one that is pierside. The significant number disparity will remain even so. There is nothing to stop the US from moving all their CBGs or subs against China in a war.

 

[Figaro]

We dont have exact figures, but we do have rough numbers. There are 4-5 94s and 5-7 093s around. The 095 has not been launched. The PLAN may have built an extra sub or two, but nobody is really expecting a dozen subs popping up with the PLAN that nobody noticed. You can't really hide a submarine launch from satelites, nor can you hide one that is pierside. The significant number disparity will remain even so. There is nothing to stop the US from moving all their CBGs or subs against China in a war.

Once again, speculation is just speculation. Yes, there is a significant disparity ... the USN is a global force while the PLAN (for now) is regional. But I'm almost certain the numerical and certainly technological disparity is not as great as some may claim. Just because the surface fleet development is more dramatic does not represent neglect for the underwater force. Most analysis on the 093 and 094 rely on backwater early 2000s reporting that don't even account for modified variants. As LKJ already said, the dev of PLAN nuclear subs are very secretive, especially when compared to that of surface combatants. Not having many images or reports is usual ... the PLAN values its undersea fleet more than you think.

 

[星海军事]

We dont have exact figures, but we do have rough numbers. There are 4-5 94s and 5-7 093s around. The 095 has not been launched.

Once again, speculation is just speculation. Yes, there is a significant disparity ... the USN is a global force while the PLAN (for now) is regional. But I'm almost certain the numerical and certainly technological disparity is not as great as some may claim. Just because the surface fleet development is more dramatic does not represent neglect for the underwater force. Most analysis on the 093 and 094 rely on backwater early 2000s reporting that don't even account for modified variants. As LKJ already said, the dev of PLAN nuclear subs are very secretive, especially when compared to that of surface combatants. Not having many images or reports is usual ... the PLAN values its undersea fleet more than you think.

Since 2002, the PLAN has constructed ten nuclear submarines—two SHANG I-class SSNs (Type 093), four SHANG II-class SSNs (Type 093A), and four JIN-class SSBNs (Type 094)

-- Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China 2017​

Seems wulff gives us a pretty decent guess.

 

[Figaro]

Seems wulff gives us a pretty decent guess.

Maybe. But it is only a guess. And didn't we have an official report of a new kind of modified 093 that has been delivered recently? Even so, Wulff keeps insisting on comparing the PLAN nuclear sub number to that of the entire USN, which is ridiculous. The USN can only allocate so many nuclear submarines to counter China ... especially accounting for the tensions with Russia. That numerical gap, while certainly large, is not as exaggerated as Wulff claims, and certainly does not show the PLAN's neglect of their nuclear submarine fleet (which his primary argument).