Turkish Navy authorized over oil crisis with Greek Cyprus

[flamer84]

Though I agree with you. But I am looking from a militaristic point of view. Not diplomacy making nor internal affairs. God knows what would have happened if we didn't have such a military no matter how harsh it was suppressed by AKP, Gülen and foreign powers.

But do you really see the Greek navy as such a push over ? Granted,they're financially troubled but they somehow manage to push the construction of the Type 214's forward,they have 13 frigates armed with Sea Sparrows,Harpoons(which are upgraded),17 FA boats with Exocet missiles (of which 5 modern Roussen with the block 3-2 more on construction),some 200 modern fighters,Storm Shadows in their inventory,a decent AA system(Patriot PAC 2-3,S300's stand out).

My bet,if you thought that an eventual war with Syria was bad,with Greece with be a nightmare.Not that you couldn't prevail but i find the optimism exagerated.

 

[universal soldier]

Egypt has a long and close history with all three of these nations, through its own colonial past and theirs. Egyptians of Turkish origins would certainly not be happy that you consider Egypt an enemy of Turkey nor would Egyptians of Greek or Cypriot ancestry for that matter.

Egyptians are consider their country to be the biggest and strongest in the middle east , they are really arrogant people with delusion that they are some kind of great country , the greatest in the world

but with the rise of turkey economically and in other fields , Egyptian start to feel threatened by strong turkey and it's growing influence in the region , Egypt compare to turkey is nothing but pathetic midget

that's really the problem with Egypt, not erdogan or sisi and the military coup

 

[rmi5]

On the reality side ,do you really think that ?

As a serious discussion,am I the only one thinking that Erdogan has surrounded Turkey with enemies with his policies which seem to backfire everywhere ? Ok,Greece,Cyprus,Armenia were natural enemies but now you have Egypt ,a couple of Arab Gulf countries (which are bankrolling Egypt's rearmament program) and an unstable and enemy Syria (i wager that Syria will be unfriendly with whatever regime will end up in there-Assad or jihadists,forget the moderates,they don't have a chance.Add to this a hostile Israel and a strenghtening kurdish region.

Well, that's what I have said on this forum literally for hundred of times.

 

[flamer84]

Egyptians are consider their country to be the biggest and strongest in the middle east , they are really arrogant people with delusion that they are some kind of great country , the greatest in the world

but with the rise of turkey economically and in other fields , Egyptian start to feel threatened by strong turkey and it's growing influence in the region , Egypt compare to turkey is nothing but pathetic midget

that's really the problem with Egypt, not erdogan or sisi and the millitary coup

You sound like you're talking aboult children being jealous,not countries.I think that you're adressing the problem rather simplistically.Bottom line is that the Egyptians were disturbed by Erdogan's interference in their internal matters.

 

[atatwolf]

On the reality side ,do you really think that ?

As a serious discussion,am I the only one thinking that Erdogan has surrounded Turkey with enemies with his policies which seem to backfire everywhere ? Ok,Greece,Cyprus,Armenia were natural enemies but now you have Egypt ,a couple of Arab Gulf countries (which are bankrolling Egypt's rearmament program) and an unstable and enemy Syria (i wager that Syria will be unfriendly with whatever regime will end up in there-Assad or jihadists,forget the moderates,they don't have a chance.Add to this a hostile Israel and a strenghtening kurdish region.

@Sinan @xenon54 @Neptune @Hakan @atatwolf @madmusti @rmi5 and others,sry can tag you all,you're so many.

Relations with Egypt were really good with the democratically elected government. Since the coup there is a dictatorship in Egypt now with the military and the Egypt-Turkey relations is going south with the day. I believe in the future when the military dictator is taken out. Egypt-Turkey relations will prosper again. ISIS is going into Egypt. Who knows how long Sisi will hold out.

About Greece/South-Cyprus. If you look from a geopolitical analysis. Relations with Greece and south-Cyprus is not important for Turkey. Small population and no resources. They also have too many internal problems to pose a threat for us.They have blocked Turkey's accession for years and still are trying to play tricks on us. I think things go both ways. You can't expect Turkey to bow down to them while they are doing everything to undermine us.

Armenia? We have bad relations with them prior to AKP rule since they invaded and committed a genocide on Azeri. Since then the borders are closed. That only leaves Syria. In Syria, the AKP government really screwed up. They supported the FSA and that group was almost destroyed. Now Davutoglu and Obama decided to give heavy equipment to FSA. Hopefully they will be succesful so all the Syrians in Turkey can go back to their home land.

I think in international relations some countries will always clash in terms of interests. It is either Greece bowing down to Turkey or Turkey bowing down to Greece. It has nothing to do with AKP government. This was the case since the creation of Greece. All these countries I mentioned above can't play the victim role. All of them have supported PKK terrorism against us in the past and Turkey has been inactive in foreign policy for too long which hurted us since it didn't give us means to respond. In the past Turkey always bowed down to the west. Since a few years since 2003 Iraqi invasion by US. We started to look for our own interests. Of course when a slave doesn't do what his slave master demands. The slave owner will start to get angry/start throwing mud.

 

[usernameless]

I'm sorry, but where was the support for democracy and human rights during the Mubarak regime? Why wasn't Turkey harboring hostile and wanted political activists under his rule and allowing them to speak against the regime and military (and even excuse the killing of soldiers) through Turkish based TV channels?

Where was Erdogan's outrage over the events of Maspero and Mohammed Mahmoud under the SCAF? Why were bilateral ties (Sea of Friendship?) improving under the SCAF which killed and imprisoned hundreds if not thousands of people rather than demonstrations being organised to denounce them?

Were was the support for liberal democracy when Morsi breached the constitution and the separation of powers for which he should have been impeached (although that could not legally happen due to several reasons)? Where was the outrage for those killed and tortured at Alithadiya?

Erdogan is simply acting in his own and his parties (not AKP that other well known one) interests rather than that of Turkey. He is consistently destroying the Turkish FO's attempts at normalising relations with Egypt (most recently at the UN). Continued hostility towards the Egyptian regime by blatantly supporting one side over another is only hurting Turkish interests at home and in the region.

I am not well versed in Egyptian affairs, but i do know that Erdogan, like any politician really, is defending his like minded interests wherever he can. Just like Arab monarchs are showing the middle finger to the MB by supporting Sisi. My point was exclusively that the coup shouldn't have happened, how long was Morsi in power? 1 year or so? imo ideally he should have finished his term and been voted out if he was that bad. Anyway, I am not up-to-date on Egypt, so you might be right that he was a clear danger, but still such coups hit a country hard, it's sad to see so many people (1000 or so in Egypt's case?) die and the overall situation becoming worse.

 

[Frogman]

Relations with Egypt were really good with the democratically elected government. Since the coup there is a dictatorship in Egypt now with the military and the Egypt-Turkey relations is going south with the day. I believe in the future when the military dictator is taken out. Egypt-Turkey relations will prosper again. ISIS is going into Egypt. Who knows how long Sisi will hold out.

That relationship was built upon foundations set during the latter period of the Mubarak regime and the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, one an outright dictatorship and the other a de facto military ruler, so the assumption that Egyptian-Turk relations deteriorated simply as a result of a forced ouster is not completely truthful or accurate. The only obstacle to normalising relations is Erdogan. Both nation's civil services (and I believe the current Egyptian regime) are open and willing to sit down and talk.

am not well versed in Egyptian affairs, but i do know that Erdogan, like any politician really, is defending his like minded interests wherever he can. Just like Arab monarchs are showing the middle finger to the MB by supporting Sisi. My point was exclusively that the coup shouldn't have happened, how long was Morsi in power? 1 year or so? imo ideally he should have finished his term and been voted out if he was that bad. Anyway, I am not up-to-date on Egypt, so you might be right that he was a clear danger, but still such coups hit a country hard, it's sad to see so many people (1000 or so in Egypt's case?) die and the overall situation becoming worse.

Morsi was not ousted simply as a result of incompetence or an ideological beef although both played a large part (the ideological side was not as prominent as some make it out to be though). It was a culmination of small and disastrous mistakes which weakened the Egyptian state itself along with actions which should have impeached him (although the only power that could do so was disbanded as a result of electoral irregularities).

If you go back and look at the news coming out of Egypt the weeks before the 30th of June you would realise that Morsi's regime was crumbling and pretty much fell by the 27th of June. Newly appointed governors did not reach office due to protests, the majority of the cabinet excluding those loyal to the MB had resigned.

For outside observers and people with a certain bias its easy to simplify (for different reasons of course) what happened on the 3rd of July and in August without looking (deeply) at what happened before that period and what happened after the 3rd of July. In my opinion the 3rd of July coup/revolution/whatever is completely unrelated to what happened in August whereas pretty much everyone sees the two as deeply interlinked.

Anyway, I don't think anyone in Egypt expected Turkey not to condemn or at least be critical of what happened. However, what is being frowned upon is the blatant hostile attitude and actions of Erdogan which amount to intervention in another sovereign states affairs.

 

[Mahmoud_EGY]

Egypt is an enemy of turkey , you need to read some history about this country , it's not their first time that they support Greece and Cyprus against turkey

Egypt is very afraid of the growing power of turkey in the region

we did fight with you greeks while they were only fighting for their freedom

 

[Mahmoud_EGY]

Egyptians are consider their country to be the biggest and strongest in the middle east , they are really arrogant people with delusion that they are some kind of great country , the greatest in the world

but with the rise of turkey economically and in other fields , Egyptian start to feel threatened by strong turkey and it's growing influence in the region , Egypt compare to turkey is nothing but pathetic midget

that's really the problem with Egypt, not erdogan or sisi and the military coup

Egypt is a great country we dont need your opinion in that matter and your influence in the region is not great every one is hostile to you

 

[Neptune]

But do you really see the Greek navy as such a push over ? Granted,they're financially troubled but they somehow manage to push the construction of the Type 214's forward,

THEY are a push over.

So do we, Type 214TN is under construction as well. Add 13x Type 209 attack-submarines which 8 of them are 1400 variant and armed with UGM-84 Harpoon Block IIs.

they have 13 frigates armed with Sea Sparrows,Harpoons(which are upgraded)

We have 16 frigates which 4 of them (Yavuz-class) are the same as Hellenic Navy's (MEKO-200). They are armed with 16x upgraded RIM-7 Sea Sparrows, 8x Harpoons with a combination of RGM-84F Block 1D and RGM-84L Block II, Mk32 torpedoes. .
Other 4 ships are MEKO-200 TN IIA a.k.a Barbaros-class. Armed with 8x Harpoon Block II, 2x Mk.32 torpedoes, Mk.41 VLS Mod 8 for 16x RIM-162 ESSM (Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile). And they have SMART-S Mk2 multifunctional radar, if you know what it is you'll get the edge they have over the Spartans.

The remaining 8 are 4,100 tonnes Gabya-class guided missile frigates. (USN Perry). They all have SMART-S MkII, New FCS, X-band radar integrated into the Turkish GENESIS Combat Management System which is recognized by Lockheed Martin as the official upgrade package for Perry class vessels. They are armed with 8x RGM-84L Harpoon Block IIs. 32x RIM-66 SM-1 MR Block VI in Mk25 canisters. (Greece does not have that) and 32x RIM-162 ESSM in Mk41 VLS. Thus Gabya-class has been also modernised with indigenous Electronic Warfare systems, comms and decoys.

As for corvettes; Burak-class corvettes are armed with 4x Exocet MM38 missiles and 6x Roketsan DSH ASW Rocket system which gets guidance by fire control computers, sonar and auto targeting.
Ada-class ASW/Patrol corvettes? Well they are the ghost ships of the surface fleet with highly reduced RCS. Armed with SMART-S Mk.II, X band radar, FCS integrated into GENESIS-MSYS Combat Management System. ARES-2N EW platform. Mk46 and Mk 32 torpedoes. 21x RIM-116 RAM, 8x RGM-84L Block II.

17 FA boats with Exocet missiles (of which 5 modern Roussen with the block 3-2 more on construction),some 200 modern fighters,Storm Shadows in their inventory,a decent AA system(Patriot PAC 2-3,S300's stand out).

Well, that's laughable sir. TNF poses 27 Missile Boats/FAC with the classes of Kılıç, Kılıç-II, Yıldız, Rüzgar and Doğan each armed with Harpoon missiles. And Kartal-class FACs are armed with two quads of AGM-119 Penguin MkII.

Additionally, 23 Patrol Boats in service with 10 Tuzla-class boats being the spearhead force of Patrol Boats Flotilla Command. Armed with 4x Depth Charges, 6x DSH ASW Rocket System, 40mm twin-compact gun and 12.7 mm stabilized platforms.

244 F-16C/D Block 40 CCIP/50/50+ are in service with 69 Israeli modernized F-4E/RF-4E 2020 Terminator. I hope that clarifies well enough.

Storm Shadows? They have only 90 missiles. Mate..ever heard of SOM missile? with a tested range over 500km. Lockheed Martin has chosen SOM-J to compete against JSM of Norway.
Also TURAF maintains; AGM-84K SLAM-ER and AGM-142 Popeye which no nation in Eastern Mediterranean poses these two.
(P.S Popeye is Israeli)

All systems listed above are the ones superior to what HN has. Other systems we have are the same systems that they too have.

In regards of AAW, we don't even have an active SAM system comparable to S-300 or PAC-3. the blame goes to our current and past governments.

Reference to naval systems: ex-midshipman

My bet,if you thought that an eventual war with Syria was bad,with Greece with be a nightmare.Not that you couldn't prevail but i find the optimism exagerated.

Well, don't ever feel that I am an egomaniac with blind nationalism. That's the truth. No nation in Eastern Mediterranean and North Africa can encounter Turkish Naval Forces even if they combine themselves to a single force. This includes Greece, Israel, Egypt and Syria as well. Though I can't say the same for our Air Force and Army in that case.
Regards.

 

[cabatli_53]

But do you really see the Greek navy as such a push over ? Granted,they're financially troubled but they somehow manage to push the construction of the Type 214's forward,they have 13 frigates armed with Sea Sparrows,Harpoons(which are upgraded),17 FA boats with Exocet missiles (of which 5 modern Roussen with the block 3-2 more on construction),some 200 modern fighters,Storm Shadows in their inventory,a decent AA system(Patriot PAC 2-3,S300's stand out).

My bet,if you thought that an eventual war with Syria was bad,with Greece with be a nightmare.Not that you couldn't prevail but i find the optimism exagerated.

Neptune underlined How strong TN is with numbers in own region today and I just try to give information about domestic equivalents of strategic assets Turkish industry developed/developing for Navy to underlines How TN is going to be unrivalled thanks to power of domestic industry...

Turkish warship programs:

-Tuzla class Patrol boats (16)
-Turkish Assault Boats (10)
-Corvette called Milgem (8)
-Frigate VL-SAM called Milgem-G (4)
-Frigate AAW called TF-2000 (4)

To establish main striking power of TN, Industry is developing following missile systems at present:

-Atmaca Anti-ship missile is going to replace all USA Harpoon missiles. Atmaca is an equivalent of latest generation of Harpoon Greece doesn't have at present.

-Aerial protection SAM systems: Hisar-A Low Altitude, Hisar-O Medium Altitude

-Long range ship based land Attack cruise missile called Gezgin (1500km)

-Heavy class Torpedo program called AKYA

-Mizrak-D Missile

-Submarine bombs

-Torpedo Defence System called Hizir

-Korkut-D 35mm twin barrel AHEAD CIWS system



Sensor systems:

-MAR-D Naval radar system
-AKR-D Fire control radar
-CAFRAD multi-function radar complex for TF-2000 frigate
-Various type of Sonar systems
-Electronic support/attack systems


Sorry but No country in that region can compete with such a strong industry/navy and Greece is nowhere to respond What Turkey is achieving in today and future as well.

Well, don't ever feel that I am an egomaniac with blind nationalism. That's the truth. No nation in Eastern Mediterranean and North Africa can encounter Turkish Naval Forces even if they combine themselves to a single force. This includes Greece, Israel, Egypt and Syria as well. Though I can't say the same for our Air Force and Army in that case.
Regards.

What Neptune told above is a certain reality, not a wish...

 

[xxxKULxxx]

Ongoing projects...

 

[atatwolf]

@flamer84

 

[universal soldier]

forget about the Turkish navy or the Greek navy , they nothing compare to the great Egyptian navy

here a video from Egyptian TV about the great operation of the great Egyptian heroes against the American navy 6th fleet

watch carefully ...

 

[Hakan]

IMO when we are looking at who can beat the other guy in a war we have to look at some simple facts, I will just point out the geographic facts.

First off I want to say that greece can never invade turkey so there is no need to discuss that scenario.

1. Greece has many islands extremely close to Turkey. Examples: Samos, Lesvos,Chios,Kos, ikaria etc. Even rhodes look how close it is to turkey. Turkey can take over many of those islands no problem. The greeks can't even send reinforcements in time and even if they are able to Turkey can bring many soldiers to those islands in a short period of time. Thousands of soldiers can be transported to those very close islands on mere fishing boats due to the geographic proximity of some greek islands to turkey. Artillery will clear out all defences no air power is even needed for those conquests and can concentrated in other areas like thrace and cyprus. The populations of those islands are also low so locals cant resist very much
2. Turkey is very close to Cyprus. Incirlik is mucher closer to cyprus than the nearest greek airbase in crete so they have no chance of establishing air superiority in cyprus. Turkey can massively increases its forces on cyprus and then just wipe out greek cyprus no problem. Turkey just needs to bring more modern tanks to cyrpus and some more artillery.
3. Lets look at thrace. There is a river separating turkey and greece so it would be tough to cross and would result in alot of casulties for turkey imo, luckily the SAMUR bridge was developed so this would allow turkish troops to cross the river relatively quickly if the greek airforce can be dealt with early on. Even if you dont cross the river succesfully and fail you will still have sucked alot of greek resources away from their islands and cyprus so a loss in thrace isnt that bad considering the fact that you wont lose any territory.

I didn't even discuss population, defence industry, or greek financial crisis here and it already looks bad for greece. Like I pointed out they are guaranteed to lose land no matter what.

Egypt and israeli would use greece as a proxy against turkey. Israel would supply weapons to greece and egypt would use its suez canal influence to negatively effect turkish trade. Nothing more nothing less from egypt and israel against Turkey imo due to the geographic distances, costly wars are not worth it especially when these sorts of disputes can be sorted out peacefully.