Turkish Naval Programs

[-SINAN-]

The project has been idle for awhile, delivery is not expected soon but in end of 2022.
1st Ada Class was the first ship, as you expect there has been some issues, the rest of the ships came out relatively faster.
2nd and to 4th I-class ships ,as stated by presidency of defence industry, will be built in private shipyards. Besides, naval shipyards has enhanced their capabilities and capacities in last years to handle incoming modernization and possible TF-2000 production. One maintenance shipyard (İzmir) has been upgraded to handle construction of Frigates in addition to Pendik Naval Shipyard.
In earlier pages it was also stated there has been minor modifications in 3rd-4th ship, more systems were localized and integrated, new systems were adapted, some properties were modified in accordance with feedback from navy. This wasn't the only reason for delay but it is one of them.
Milgem project does not solely focus on profitable production, it covers integration of local systems and gaining experience on design&production. We can say for now it is matured enough, the intelligence and training ship Ufuk and I-Class is the proof of it, soon the project will shift from development stage to the efficient production stage by handing production to private shipyards.
The Navy expects to put all I-class in service by 2024-2025. Once tender has been finalized, construction will start for 2,3 and 4th ship consecutively. Construction (from keel to delivery) usually takes place around 2.5-3 years. We can stretch it to 4 due to inexperience of private shipyards. Should also note, 4th Milgem could be in service in 2.5 - 3 years but it has stayed in testing process longer than expected awaiting for ATMACA Anti-Ship Missile and integration of ADVENT Management System and other systems replaced by local equivalents.

So, if we could have managed the Milgem design/planning/production phases better at the past, today we could have been better at building frigates/warships.

 

[Nutuk]

So, if we could have managed the Milgem design/planning/production phases better at the past, today we could have been better at building frigates/warships.

Has nothing to do with management!
It was purely political decision to cancel the tender of 6 Milgem serial production won by RMK marine

 

[Saithan]

@ANMDT Do we have the necessary amount of naval shipyards. Seeing all these developments are very nice, but we have to remember that current government has been running solo for the past 19 years or so, which makes me worried that a different government will prioritize differently. Especially given our country's current economic woes.

Can anyone of these shipyards survive without government PO.

 

[ANMDT]

So, if we could have managed the Milgem design/planning/production phases better at the past, today we could have been better at building frigates/warships.

Definitely it could have been planned better, according to the plans made in 90s it was planned to have have all Ada-Class (12 of them) by 2010 and TF-2000 would be in service by 2015. Should also note Ada-Class' design has changed multiple times since it was planned first.
The major setback has been the private shipyards, by 2010 only RMK Marine was experienced enough to build a corvette-frigate (Thanks to the collaboration with Fincantieri (Itailan) in Coast Guard Ship Project, note that the ships were actually a corvette and converted into Coast Guard Ship for Turkey). We know the rest of the story, 4 Ada-Class has been cancelled, opted out for I-Class, Officers in Naval Shipyard has been detained-fired (Not only Post-Coup but Pre-Coup attempt), I-Class has lagged, economical issues, budget re-allocation for expensive projects like TCG Anadou and so on.
SSB has pushed onto private shipyards multiple times to upgrade their facilities, abilities but none has responsed so far. TCG Ufuk is another " push" on a private shipyard (Istanbul Shipyard) to make them able to construct a frigate.
Or ADIK's Cadet Training Ship (for Qatar) is actually a corvette like design, again a project handed over to them so that they can gain some ability.
It is in the nature of the Milgem project, more systems were produced locally as it took time to finalize, took time to integrate, got delayed more, new systems have emerged to integrate.

Has nothing to do with management!
It was purely political decision to cancel the tender of 6 Milgem serial production won by RMK marine

RMK Marine was awarded for 4 Milgems, however Navy has decided they dont need Ada Class anymore and choose the larger variant, it could have been an excuse to cancel the project but assuming I-Class does not vary from Ada-Class that much, RMK Marine could have handled production of those.
It is also about management, it has been 15 years since SSB and Navy clearly declared multiple times they desire private shipyards to come into action, nothing has been made until 2 years ago.

 

[Nutuk]

The whole milgem project was wasted pure for political reasons. Murad Bayar was wasted and replaced by the clown Ismail Demir. Too many dirty practices to harm the Turkish navy including all those political imprisonments of naval officers.

But in Turkey it suffices to say: Kandirildik

 

[ANMDT]

@ANMDT Do we have the necessary amount of naval shipyards. Seeing all these developments are very nice, but we have to remember that current government has been running solo for the past 19 years or so, which makes me worried that a different government will prioritize differently. Especially given our country's current economic woes.

Can anyone of these shipyards survive without government PO.

Naval shipyards does not focus on profit-making. We are sufficient on that but we need involvement of private shipyards to catch up with our current needs. And on the other hand, private shipyards are in need of military projects for financial reasons.
And shipyards do not only construct new ships, they also maintain the existing ones. The one located in izmir was building tugboats, or maintaining small ships but it has got a new floating drydock. Some says there has been improvizations regarding to building part. There has been upgrades in other naval shipyards as well.
Our private shipyards or private designers is not experienced enough to start a project on their own and finalize it (in frigate size), whatever they offer on their own is highly based on Milgem's design or other designs they have built.
Dearsan has surprised us, with their corvette sized ship for Turkmenistan. But we cant deny private shipyards are more efficient in building, since their primary concern is profit.
And beyond this point most of subsystems are produced locally and integrated, only we can hope things will develop faster, yet there are more systems to come.
We needed a test ship since 10 years ago, Aselsan has intended to acquire one for itself. Looks like they are still interested in that. A ship where we can test all equipments and integrate without disturbing the production phase.

The whole milgem project was wasted pure for political reasons. Murad Bayar was wasted and replaced by the clown Ismail Demir. Too many dirty practices to harm the Turkish navy including all those political imprisonments of naval officers.

But in Turkey it suffices to say: Kandirildik

Ergenekon and Balyoz has effected Milgem. And finally the Coup attempt was creme de la creme.
But top officials in Navy sometimes lack basic understanding, they set high criterias to be achieved. Once they start to list their wishes you start to sense it will end up having this:

Now RMK Marine has lost the ability for constructing Frigates, it was such a waste of time.
And we have another habit: Kervan yolda düzülür.

 

[SgtGungHo]

@ANMDT Do we have the necessary amount of naval shipyards. Seeing all these developments are very nice, but we have to remember that current government has been running solo for the past 19 years or so, which makes me worried that a different government will prioritize differently. Especially given our country's current economic woes.

Can anyone of these shipyards survive without government PO.

This is why Turkey needs to develop a commercial shipbuilding industry. Currently, what I understand is that Turkish shipbuilding industry mostly focuses on building yachts and repairing & servicing existing ships. A $1 billion export made by Turkish Shipbuilding industry is an impressive achievement. However, if you want a healthy defense industry that is capable of designing & building serious naval fleets at competitive prices, you need to build a sustainable shipbuilding industry.

Now Australia, the US and others can get away with it since the governments can basically babysit the entire industry with monies. Once the disgraced defense minister of Australia said that he wouldn't even trust the Australian shipbuilder, ASC to 'build a canoe'. It is true. ASC can't build a sh*t. (It doesn't mean Australia doesn't have advanced naval technologies) However, Australians understand that this is the best for our defense industry.

However, impoverished countries can't afford the same luxury. They have to do whatever it takes to help their shipbuilders to become bread winners & defense companies.

 

[ANMDT]

Currently, what I understand is that Turkish shipbuilding industry mostly focuses on building yachts and repairing & servicing existing ships

Turkish shipbuilding industry focuses on chemical tankers*, special-purpose vessels (fish carriers, fish feeders, tugboats in any scale), feeder kind containerships, Ro-Ro and Ferries. Since 2010 the shipbuilding industry has shrank remarkably and it has affected the Turkish industry as well. In Addition to that during the last decade sea-trading habits has changed remarkably. LNG ships has appeared, Tankers has gone smaller, FPSOs has gained attention, Arctic-Ice grade vessels has gained an importance due to a new route emerging on arctics with molten ices.
* Asphalt, concrete, and other chemical carriers.
However, this does not mean Turkey doesnt have a commercial shipbuilding industry, we actually have a good one which has once focused on niche vessels, we may expect a return, but not vivid as the last time. This is also an advantage, we didnt have much trouble with LSTs, Logistic Ships, Supply at Sea and Combat support ships (DIMDEG), Patrol Boats (Steel construction) or other Auxillary vessels (MoShip-RatShip).
And Yacht industry is beneficial as well, since their main interest is on composite or aliminum.(Yonca-Onuk produces nice boats, Ares is a yacht shipyards but exports military boats).
Major Steel-based shipyards:
ADIK, (LST and Cadet Training Ship-Qatar's)
Sefine, (DIMDEG)
RMK Marine, (Coast Guard Ships :OPV grade)
Dearsan, (Patrol boats, FAC and Corvette for Turkmenistan)
Sedef, (LHD)
Istanbul Shipyard, (MoShip,RaTShip, SIGINT-ELINT and Training ship (Milgem with alternative configuration).
DESAN, (Diver Training and Emergency response boat, probably along with offshore-anchor handling tugboats)
Repair-Maintanence focused shipyards do still earn well, and military projects are shared among the major shipyards. The smaller ones either acquired by larger one or serves as sub-contractors.

Turkish shipbuilding capacity rose from 654,000 DWT in 2003 to 1.4 million DWT in 2009 and the amount of sheet steel processed in shipyards has doubled. Maintenance and repair capacity have also seen a considerable increase. A million ton yearly capacity has been reached with the restructuring of some other shipyards. The Turkish shipbuilding industry shone brightly for a brief period between 2005 and 2008, increasing orders tenfold and moving from 23rd position to eighth, growing 360 percent in the process compared to a global average of 89 percent.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/tu-shipbuilding.htm

Additional note: Turkey is on nowhere to compete with Korea-China-Japan trio in commercial shipbuilding, check total area of the shipyards in Turkey and compare it to a single Daewoo shipyard-which is large as a city and exceeds sum of Turkish shipyards' area and capacity. This is the reason why they focus on niche products. Sadly we dont spare enough for R&D on commercial shipbuilding, yet none of our shipyards are capable of conducting R&D (there used to be some, but not sure if they still exist). If i am not mistaken shipyards are categorized in 5 (if 6th Gen isnt categorized yet after Internet of Things or full automation). Only a few Turkish Shipyards are in 4th Gen, the rest is 3 or 2.

This is why Turkey needs to develop a commercial shipbuilding industry. Currently, what I understand is that Turkish shipbuilding industry mostly focuses on building yachts and repairing & servicing existing ships. A $1 billion export made by Turkish Shipbuilding industry is an impressive achievement. However, if you want a healthy defense industry that is capable of designing & building serious naval fleets at competitive prices, you need to build a sustainable shipbuilding industry.

Now Australia, the US and others can get away with it since the governments can basically babysit the entire industry with monies. Once the disgraced defense minister of Australia said that he wouldn't even trust the Australian shipbuilder, ASC to 'build a canoe'. It is true. ASC can't build a sh*t. (It doesn't mean Australia doesn't have advanced naval technologies) However, Australians understand that this is the best for our defense industry.

However, impoverished countries can't afford the same luxury. They have to do whatever it takes to help their shipbuilders to become bread winners & defense companies.

Austraila has Incat and Austal the two greatest Aliminum hull producers. Austal USA builds Independence Class LCS and they produce wave-piercing, high speed catamaran ferries. this is niche as much as building LNGs. Aliminum is a specialized field and not most of countries can go beyond a size. This the reason why Sweden can step up and have a great all-composite Visby Class. The reason why Korea constructs hull of Cruisers and deliver it bare-hull to European countries for furnishing.

Once the disgraced defense minister of Australia said that he wouldn't even trust the Australian shipbuilder, ASC to 'build a canoe'

LOL, whomever has seen construction site of any shipyard wouldnt trust them to build even a canoe, what those guys expect? Hospitals? Fighter Jet grade accurate production? Satellite production facilities? . I have experienced such an event, in one of the best (or the biggest) shipyard, engineers has altered the handed out prints and constructed by removing some details, which were not important according to them. It happens in anywhere, the field engineers may take some initiative, ends up in a catastrophic way for the shipyard. However it happens, sort of like a daily life event in shipyards.
If he has spoken such for military vessels, Austraila can afford to get steel hull produced in anywhere abd equipping it in Australia. A shipyard is an heavy industry and developed countries tries to avoid it as much as possible by keeping strategic facilities alive like UK-Spain-Italy-France or US and morelikely Australia.

 

[SgtGungHo]

This is also an advantage, we didnt have much trouble with LSTs, Logistic Ships, Supply at Sea and Combat support ships (DIMDEG), Patrol Boats (Steel construction) or other Auxillary vessels (MoShip-RatShip).

I don't particularly disagree and I commend Turkey's efforts. However, it seems like all frigates (since Turkey doesn't have any Destroyer) are based on foreign-design. You can't essentially mess up a proven design unless you are ASC.

LOL, whomever has seen construction site of any shipyard wouldnt trust them to build even a canoe, what those guys expect? Hospitals? Fighter Jet grade accurate production? Satellite production facilities? . I have experienced such an event, in one of the best (or the biggest) shipyard, engineers has altered the handed out prints and constructed by removing some details, which were not important according to them. It happens in anywhere, the field engineers may take some initiative, ends up in a catastrophic way for the shipyard. However it happens, sort of like a daily life event in shipyards.
If he has spoken such for military vessels, Austraila can afford to get steel hull produced in anywhere abd equipping it in Australia. A shipyard is an heavy industry and developed countries tries to avoid it as much as possible by keeping strategic facilities alive like UK-Spain-Italy-France or US and morelikely Australia.

The defense minister expected to at least ASC to build serviceable submarines that performed as it had been promised by both ASC and Kockums and not plagued with countless problems from engine breakdowns to excessive noise. It was because ASC had altered designs made by Kockums and others. It costed the Australian government both time and money to solve every single issue. Australian public and the Australian government lost faith in ASC of building a submarine and I can't blame them. Anyway, the Collins-Class submarine is actually one of the best diesel-powered submarines in the world. However, it's true that Australia could have saved a lot of money for building those submarines.

 

[ANMDT]

it seems like all frigates

All frigates in service are either German MEKO (Yavuz-Barbaros Class) or US Oliver Hazard Perry (Gabya Class), However Istanbul Class Frigate based on Ada-Class corvette *(actually what most of countries call a light frigate) and TF-2000 *(destroyer sized AAW ship) is Turkish design.
Altering submarine design (even in detail level) is quite risky, ASC was a victim, modified German Type 214 had issues in Greece and Korea we will see what happens in TN version. Spain has managed to sink their first submarine (S80) and received technical assistance from US to resolve the matter.

The defense minister expected to at least ASC to build serviceable submarines that performed as it had been promised by both ASC and Kockums and it is not plagued with countless problems from engine breakdowns to excessive noise. It was because ASC had altered designs made by Kockums and others. It costed the Australian government both time and money to solve every single issue. Australian public and the Australian government lost faith in ASC of building a submarine and I can't blame them. Anyway, the Collins-Class submarine is actually one of the best diesel-powered submarine. However, it's true that Australia could have saved a lot of money for building those submarines.

Designing and building submarines is entirely irrevelant of building commercial ships or surface combatants. Even building submarines through license and technical assistance is considered as an achievement. Was it the first time for Australia to build a submarine?.

 

[SgtGungHo]

All frigates in service are either German MEKO (Yavuz-Barbaros Class) or US Oliver Hazard Perry (Gabya Class), However Istanbul Class Frigate based on Ada-Class corvette *(actually what most of countries call a light frigate) and TF-2000 *(destroyer sized AAW ship) is Turkish design.
Altering submarine design (even in detail level) is quite risky, ASC was a victim, modified German Type 214 had issues in Greece and Korea we will see what happens in TN version. Spain has managed to sink their first submarine (S80) and received technical assistance from US to resolve the matter.

Designing and building submarines is entirely irrevelant of building commercial ships or surface combatants. Even building submarines through license and technical assistance is considered as an achievement. Was it the first time for Australia to build a submarine?.

I have never heard of this term "light frigate", to be honest. Latest frigates of most major navies are between 3500~6000 tonnes. I think Japanese and Russia are only exceptions, then again they don't need many small frigates. From what I can see is that both Ada-Class and Istanbul-Class (which is 3000 tonnes from my understanding) are still corvettes. However, it seems like classification is up to each navy to decide and all of Turkish ships are well-equipped. And yes, the Collins-class was the first Australian-built submarines. However, that's not the point. I tried to point out countries like Australia can afford to keep jobs and some shipbuilding capacities at home even if their local company is sub-standard.

About German Type 214, nobody at Royal Australian Navy wanted the boat for some reasons. Probably, because they were even smaller than existing Collins-Class submarines. An interesting choice made by Greece, Korea and Turkey. I'd pick Soryu-Class class for off-the-shelf submarines, but I guess all of those countries wanted to develop expertise in building submarines and Germany offered the most comprehensive ToT deal.

 

[ANMDT]

From what I can see is that both Ada-Class and Istanbul-Class (which is 3000 tonnes from my understanding) are still corvettes

Its hard to differ the classes nowadays, Anything below 2000 tonnes and 90 meters are clearly classified as corvettes, anything above 110 meters and 3000 tonnes are called frigates. In between, the ships are either large corvettes or light frigates.
Damen (Netherland) classifies their 103 meter 2350 tonnes Sigma Class as a frigate,
DCNS (France) classifies 102 meter 2500 tonnes Gowind Class as a corvette, however 3100 tonnes variant has been called as a frigate.
I have seen companies leasing their corvette-FAC sized ships as " light frigates" in some tenders or sometimes directly as "frigates"
Turkey prefers to call Ada-Class as corvette, Istanbul Class as Frigate, TF-2000 as destroyer (It used to be a frigate but as time passed the design was enlarged). If you ask my opinion, it is useless to classify large combatants beyond of destroyer-frigate and small ones as a boat-craft (FAC,FIC,PB,FIB) classes.
Shipbuilders probably made "Light Frigate" term to attract some new users for their corvette sized multi-purpose vessels. "It is equipped as much as a frigate but also small and cheaper, easily maintained".

About German Type 214

Inorganic ties, Turkey in recent times always preferred German submarines by local production. Gölcük naval shipyard has got used to work with HDW, other subcontractors in Turkey closely worked with Germans. In addition, they have allowed modifications and localization of some systems and partial ToT.
If you speak for the size, probably the seas surrounding Turkey describes why a small submarine was chosen.

 

[-SINAN-]

Its hard to differ the classes nowadays, Anything below 2000 tonnes and 90 meters are clearly classified as corvettes, anything above 110 meters and 3000 tonnes are called frigates. In between, the ships are either large corvettes or light frigates.
Damen (Netherland) classifies their 103 meter 2350 tonnes Sigma Class as a frigate,
DCNS (France) classifies 102 meter 2500 tonnes Gowind Class as a corvette, however 3100 tonnes variant has been called as a frigate.
I have seen companies leasing their corvette-FAC sized ships as " light frigates" in some tenders or sometimes directly as "frigates"
Turkey prefers to call Ada-Class as corvette, Istanbul Class as Frigate, TF-2000 as destroyer (It used to be a frigate but as time passed the design was enlarged). If you ask my opinion, it is useless to classify large combatants beyond of destroyer-frigate and small ones as a boat-craft (FAC,FIC,PB,FIB) classes.
Shipbuilders probably made "Light Frigate" term to attract some new users for their corvette sized multi-purpose vessels. "It is equipped as much as a frigate but also small and cheaper, easily maintained".


Inorganic ties, Turkey in recent times always preferred German submarines by local production. Gölcük naval shipyard has got used to work with HDW, other subcontractors in Turkey closely worked with Germans. In addition, they have allowed modifications and localization of some systems and partial ToT.
If you speak for the size, probably the seas surrounding Turkey describes why a small submarine was chosen.

Bro, i want to ask you something. You know we have 3 drill ships that are searching for hydro-carbon in the East Mediterranean. Let's assume that we found oil or natural gas in these areas.

Does our ship building industry capable of building vessels to extract these natural resources?

 

[ANMDT]

Bro, i want to ask you something. You know we have 3 drill ships that are searching for hydro-carbon in the East Mediterranean. Let's assume that we found oil or natural gas in these areas.

Does our ship building industry capable of building vessels to extract these natural resources?

Even those drill ships are partly operated by foreign staff and despite of working on illegally-according to the EU- operated ships those foreigner staff is not found guilty of anything . We could hire FPO (FPSO) or Platforms but i doubt if it would be profitable in long term (and renting those kind of vessels are not profitable in short term, it takes months to fix one's position with moorings if it needs to be moored), all depends on the reserve and other gas related parameters those i have no idea, regarding to quality, amount, yield. But i believe,once we have found some gas, there would be hidden "partners" leasing their platforms under Turkish flag partly operated by Turkish staff. This kind of procedures is pretty easy in maritime (leasing, chartering, changing flags or operators) and avoiding any sanctions.
BP has caused a natural disaster, aside from being ashamed they were almost declared hero in their effort of cleaning their mess, this might give some idea on how nasty oil companies may get. (not yet mentioned the hundred millions of bribes they have given away in south- south east asia to gain rights in oil-gas sites)
Are we capable of building such vessels to remain in the area for about 20-30 years with minimum maintenance, not at all. Its delicacy, designing and constructing one of them requires a multi-nation teams and multi-billions of budget.Even feasibility study of a turret* design costs up to 10-50 millions yet none of our designers nor the universities are experienced with it. If you generally ask about mooring a ship in open seas, we may achieve it (or we did, we design and built our own mooring networks-nearby to shore or offshore) ,but mooring-fixing it and extracting gas in all weathers, i am not quite positive.
If we could find some platforms from foreign partners (pretty easy), deliver gas to Northern Cyprus and then off to Turkey this could work in a cheaper way. You may find out drill ships are sold not quite expensive in second hand (from 200-500 millions, ya da gümrükten alırsan Kanuni sondaj gemisi gibi 40 milyon), but FPSOs or Platforms can be more expensive. It is also expensive to operate such vessels.
the turret is the yellow part, in some designs its submerged, in some it is attached on fore of the vessel. All pipes-moorings are connected to there keeping ship in a position through mooring lines positioned in seabed. It allows ship to move in some degree of freedoms. Some vessels use Dynamic Positioning instead, It has grades (0-I-II), Aselsan works on that but alone it is not enough.

 

[cabatli_53]

Ismail Demir: In acc to changing needs and offshore operation requirements of TN, Different versions of TCG Anadolu may be on agenda in following period.