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Turkey To Go Its Own Way With Submarines

Test7

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Turkey operates the second-largest submarine fleet in NATO. Currently all of them are imported designs, but that is set to change. The program to build the first indigenous submarine has been formally launched. Known as MiLDEN (Milli Denizaltı), six of the new boats should join the fleet in the 2030s.
The move comes at a time many defense deals with Turkey are under the spotlight, with the U.S. cancelling sales of F-35 fighter jets to the country and taking away its production role in the program over Turkey's decision to acquire Russian S-400 air-defense missiles. Turkey also has ambitions to be more self-sufficient in defense, building indigenous frigates and main battle tanks. It even has a railgun project.

The new submarines will have Air Independent Power (AIP), which will allow them to remain submerged for much longer than traditional non-nuclear submarines. Contrary to popular belief, AIP is used to power the electric motor which turns the propeller, not to charge the batteries. The batteries are reserved for silent running and high-speed dashes when the AIP alone is not enough.
Turkey;s 12 current submarines are all based on the German Type-209 family. The plan has been for these to be partly replaced by six of the more advanced Type-214TN model, also from Germany. The Type-214TN submarines will be known as the Reis Class and, like many previous Turkish submarines, will be built locally. The project has suffered from serious delays however and is not expected to join the fleet until the 2020s.

The MiLDEN program will take years more of research and development. In the meantime the local shipbuilding industry is gaining experience by upgrading three of Pakistan's submarines. These were built in France so, together with the construction of German-designed boats, Turkey is gaining a broad awareness of submarine design.

When the Pakistani submarines reenter service they may shoulder the nuclear deterrent in the form of nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has suggested he’s interested in developing nuclear weapons, saying on September 4 that "Some countries have missiles with nuclear warheads, not one or two. But [they tell us] we can’t have them. This, I cannot accept." The role of Turkey's submarines in any future nuclear deterrent is unclear.

Either way, Turkey occupies a strategic location on the eastern edge of NATO. It controls the Bosporus, a narrow waterway between the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Crucially, under the 1936 Montreux Convention other countries' submarines are forbidden from passing through the Bosporus. For example, this means that Russia cannot use its submarines based in the Black Sea for operations off Syria.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2019/10/20/turkey-to-go-own-way-with-submarines/#55191adc12f7
 
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Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project
by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ
The existing Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cell (PEM Fuel Cell) technology used in the Type 214TN REİS Class Submarine, which is currently being built for the Turkish Navy at Gölcük Shipyard, is well above the level currently reached by Turkish Defence and Aviation Industry companies and institutions (5kW) in terms of power capacity. In order to strengthen the existing infrastructure in the field of PEM Fuel Cells in Turkey, to meet the possible PEM Fuel Cell module needs of REİS Class Submarines at home with national resources and to adopt the system in the National Submarine (MİLDEN) project, the SSB initiated the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project in 2018 by aiming a slightly higher power capacity than the Type 214.

Before the project, in order to determine the level of existing domestic facilities, capabilities and infrastructure for nationally developing the Main Propulsion System, Fuel Cell System, Hydrogen Reformer and/or Storage System, Enhanced Lead-acid Batteries or Alternative Technology Batteries, the SSB issued a R&D Wide Area Call for the Development of Marine Propulsion System in March 2017 and asked the relevant local companies/institutions/organizations to submit the required information by May 18, 2017. The Wide Area Call for Development of Naval Platforms Propulsion System was issued to identify local companies/institutions/organizations interested in the project, to determine the design, production and testing capabilities, to determine the current and completed R&D projects/studies of local companies/institutions/organizations, to evaluate related R&D project proposals, and to obtain the information required to identify projects and project models to be launched.

The SSB has initiated the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project for the establishment of national infrastructure to meet the PEM Fuel Cell, and Fuel Reformer (Methyl Alcohol will be used and only for MİLDEN) needs for the Type 214TN REIS Class and MİLDEN Submarines. Within the scope of the project, an invitation to tender (ITT) was submitted to Aspilsan, Roketsan, Vestel Defence, and TÜBİTAK MRC companies, and the first bids were sent to the SSB in September 2018. Because TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute could not submit a bid on its own due to its corporate identity, it submitted its proposal as a subcontractor enabling it to work with these three companies. According to the information received from Vestel Defence and TÜBİTAK MRC officials who participated in the project during the IDEF ‘19 Fair and TeknoFest 2019 Aviation, Space and Technology
Festival held at Istanbul ATATÜRK Airport on September 17-22, 2019; TÜBİTAK MRC submitted two separate bids to Vestel Defence and Aspilsan and also made an offer to Roketsan only for the Reformer. According to the information I gathered, the negotiations with the SSB regarding the proposals which were submitted in September 2018 for different variants (both with and without the Reformer) were completed in the summer of 2019. However, as the SSB requested a final price reduction, the companies are continuing their studies as of September 18, 2019. If there are no surprises in the project, the winner is expected to be selected by the end of this year, and the contract is expected to be signed in January 2020. Within this framework, Vestel Defence, one of the candidate companies, started its preliminary studies on several different components.

Currently, there are two PEM Fuel Cell modules with a capacity of 120kW (total 240 kilowatts) in REİS Class, while the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project targets a total net power of 300kW and a gross power of approximately 360-370kW. This goal is planned to be achieved with six fuel cell modules with a 60-65kW power capacity, each of which is of domestic design and production. According to the information we have obtained, in the first phase of the Project, a Fuel Cell with a capacity of 65kW will be developed and produced with national capabilities and delivered to the SSB for testing. After the tests, if the product is successful, mass production of 6 65kW Fuel Cell modules will begin.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...on-system-components-development-project-3640

A strategic national submarine propulsion and PEM battery program have commenced. With fuel cell to be developed, Milden(370-390kw) will be more powerful than U-214TN (240kw).
 
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Pakistan should follow Project Azm style development model for all the future defence related projects.
We know nothing about project azm and there are no deadlines. The only way to gain capabilities is to work with those who have. Turkish industries have developed from US and Europe and their equipments are of remarkably high standards, better than chinese and russian.
I believe the only way project azm and the likes can succeed if we cooperate with china and turkey on defense manufacturing. After that we can put together our experiences to have indigenous solutions. We also need Pakistan private sector to venture into high end weapons manufacturing.
 
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Pakistan should follow Project Azm style development model for all the future defence related projects.
100% agreed. That said, the MILDEN is far off enough to make sense as a next-gen successor for the Agosta 90B-series (2040s onwards). I also think there's a shot of Pakistan signing onto the SIPER and Hisar-U as they (at least the SIPER) offers a critical capability we won't easily find elsewhere (hit-to-kill).
 
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100% agreed. That said, the MILDEN is far off enough to make sense as a next-gen successor for the Agosta 90B-series (2040s onwards). I also think there's a shot of Pakistan signing onto the SIPER and Hisar-U as they (at least the SIPER) offers a critical capability we won't easily find elsewhere (hit-to-kill).
Sir, the logical stuff for Pakistan is two work on a SSN and SSBN because it is definitely required for a credible second strike capability. I don't know how feasible is to develop a hull/structure on modular style that can accommodate either a nuclear reactor or an AIP system but now the focus should be on a nuke sub I would say we should lease or buy a one or two from China in the mean while.
 
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Sir, the logical stuff for Pakistan is two work on a SSN and SSBN because it is definitely required for a credible second strike capability. I don't know how feasible is to develop a hull/structure on modular style that can accommodate either a nuclear reactor or an AIP system but now the focus should be on a nuke sub I would say we should lease or buy a one or two from China in the mean while.
There's technically a large enough platform available in China, i.e., the Qing-class testbed. It's conventionally powered, but I think was meant to test the weapons they're planning to deploy on their SSN/SSBNs. Getting the hull may not be a problem, the main issue is the reactor and all of the associated risk mitigation/controls.
 
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There's technically a large enough platform available in China, i.e., the Qing-class testbed. It's conventionally powered, but I think was meant to test the weapons they're planning to deploy on their SSN/SSBNs. Getting the hull may not be a problem, the main issue is the reactor and all of the associated risk mitigation/controls.
My idea is that we get a complete nuclear sub.. like Gangadesh has been leasing from Russia. But we develop our sub on project Azm style with JV for various subsystem with STM and other OEMs. But we develop our own nuclear reactor. In fact work has already been done on such a compact reactor for submersible applications. While the ToT obtained from Agosta 90b and upcoming sub will help us in designing the hull and other system. Reactor and hull development can run in parallel asynchronously.
While we should start JV for periscope, various navigational systems and ECM with STM etc... multiple teams but with a blueprint of a design
 
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