Troops to stay put at border with India

[ajpirzada]

Saturday, May 16, 2009
Military leadership says world guarantees can’t be trusted; Kayani briefs politicians on Swat situation; leaders resolve to preserve Pakistan’s sovereignty

By Asim Yasin

ISLAMABAD: The military leadership on Friday told the national political leadership that there was no chance of moving the armed forces from Pakistan’s border with India for their deployment at the western borders.

In a five-hour-long in-camera briefing to the national leadership here at the PM House, the military leadership clearly said that no guarantee from the international community could be accepted.

According to sources, on the query of PML-N Quaid Mian Nawaz Sharif about the situation at the eastern borders, the military leadership told the political leadership that the United States had asked for the deployment of forces at the Afghanistan border by moving them from the Indian border and was even ready to give guarantees that India would not make any misadventure against Pakistan. But Pakistan rejected the proposal and made it clear that on the issue of national security, it did not trust any kind of international guarantees.


Troops to stay put at border with India

 

[Skeptic]

wow man ajpirzada, this war certainly seems to have pumped you up.

The Post factory working overtime it seems relentlessly and tirelessly. I guess you have an eye on that 5K post thread in your name before the war ends.

 

[ajpirzada]

wow man ajpirzada, this war certainly seems to have pumped you up.

The Post factory working overtime it seems relentlessly and tirelessly. I guess you have an eye on that 5K post thread in your name before the war ends.

lol.. na i dont care about 5k thing. im only postin wat appears important to me. and u know its saturday tomorrow so i can sleep all day which i will

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

"the military leadership told the political leadership that the United States had asked for the deployment of forces at the Afghanistan border by moving them from the Indian border and was even ready to give guarantees that India would not make any misadventure against Pakistan."

Interesting - I was arguing for this a long time ago, pooh poohed by some Indians and Westerners, and now it is the Pakistani Military that has pooh poohed 'international guarantees'.

 

[rubyjackass]

Let's see how things will turn out.
The figures army is giving are encouraging but the dark side is that civilian casualities are clearly added into militant casualities.
Anyone has hard number of forces being used in the operation?

 

[Hellfire]

"the military leadership told the political leadership that the United States had asked for the deployment of forces at the Afghanistan border by moving them from the Indian border and was even ready to give guarantees that India would not make any misadventure against Pakistan."

Interesting - I was arguing for this a long time ago, pooh poohed by some Indians and Westerners, and now it is the Pakistani Military that has pooh poohed 'international guarantees'.

seems PA is entering Mingora soon ..... lets see where the reinforcements come in from as operations progress more and more into urban set up

anyways you did withdraw about 2 division worth of troops (2x3 brigades of infantry troops) from eastern sector, so thats a beginning.

 

[PAFAce]

wow man ajpirzada, this war certainly seems to have pumped you up.
The Post factory working overtime it seems relentlessly and tirelessly.

ajpirzada is a beast. I've learnt a lot from his posts over the past few days. I try to go to different news websites for news related to Pakistan, both national and international, but ajpirzada always seems to find some news story I haven't read. I think he's an intelligence agent, but don't tell him that.

Interesting - I was arguing for this a long time ago, pooh poohed by some Indians and Westerners, and now it is the Pakistani Military that has pooh poohed 'international guarantees'.

You and me both, brother, advocating the same basic thing. I like the way they pooh poohed on the guarantees, it feels good to just "let it go" sometimes.

Let's see how things will turn out.
The figures army is giving are encouraging but the dark side is that civilian casualities are clearly added into militant casualities.
Anyone has hard number of forces being used in the operation?

Not too many civillians left in the region. Almost 1.2 IDPs now, and those coming out now are confirming that most of the dead are visibly Taleban. But, I agree, there is no way of telling civillians from the terrorists, all you can do is hope. Civillian casualties are part of the game, that's why it's called war.

As for hard numbers, well, here's the BBC:

Up to 15,000 troops have now been deployed in the Swat valley and neighbouring areas to take on some 5,000 militants.

 

[Hellfire]

As for hard numbers, well, here's the BBC:

well that is an understated number. You had upwards of 10x1000 PA troops before start of campaign inclusive of armour and artillery. Now you have reinforced with 6 brigades more that means about 25-28 x 1000 troops PA. Not counting FC and paramilitary organisations, police forces here.

So the actual number may be bordering around 70-90 x1000 troops for now with increment likely as focus shifts to urban set up.

 

[PAFAce]

well that is an understated number. You had upwards of 10x1000 PA troops before start of campaign inclusive of armour and artillery. Now you have reinforced with 6 brigades more that means about 25-28 x 1000 troops PA. Not counting FC and paramilitary organisations, police forces here.

So the actual number may be bordering around 70-90 x1000 troops for now with increment likely as focus shifts to urban set up.

You are correct to an extent. Approximately 15,000 troops are actively engaged in the operations in Swat, however, there are about 130,000 troops stationed in the FATA and NWFP region. Not every single soldier in the area is involved in the operation, but the op is definitely the focal point of the Army at the moment.

 

[ajpirzada]

we dont have to move troops from eastern border. We have got enough troops which can be dedicatedy to swat operation. This is wat ISPR said few days back

 

[third eye]

I would have been surprised if PA had to shift toops from the E to W.

Like all armies, PA has enough reserve formations who are not deployed on the borders. These would be sufficient to meet any requirements. In any case since the AF & Artillery is being used at will the ' crust' gets broken making the job of troops easier.

 

[Hellfire]

You are correct to an extent. Approximately 15,000 troops are actively engaged in the operations in Swat, however, there are about 130,000 troops stationed in the FATA and NWFP region. Not every single soldier in the area is involved in the operation, but the op is definitely the focal point of the Army at the moment.

The thing is not every single soldier is involved ever in any theater. Its the logistic troops which form the bulk always. Something that is selectively ignored in Kashmir where IA has to maintain a huge force in terms of third line transports for formations in field which requires a very large pool of men.

Your active troop concentration will go up as you move into major towns and population centers. In addition troops will be needed to be stationed even at remotest of villages in sufficient numbers to deny access to TTP cadres. So where do you get the troops in this number - nowhere as majority will be support troops. So you shall need to infuse more combat specific troops with more support elements for the same in ratio of almost 1:7-8!!!! Now lets get into the figures with respect to Kashmir and you shall find the allocation of troops to the area to be covered is same if not more for SWAT and FATA!!!!!!

 

[Hellfire]

we dont have to move troops from eastern border. We have got enough troops which can be dedicatedy to swat operation. This is wat ISPR said few days back

For now

I take ISPR's brief as hogwash if they want to use it as a long term statement. Otherwise for present they may not be feeling any need but the need will come as you move into Mingora and other population centers and need to have active troops in sufficient numbers to liquidate the ANEs there and to secure the towns.

You shall need troops and you wont want to move newly inducted recruits here, so they shall come from east like the 2 division worth you have just removed : sindh-punjab sector. Something I had pointed out way earlier will have to be done

 

[Hellfire]

I would have been surprised if PA had to shift toops from the E to W.

Like all armies, PA has enough reserve formations who are not deployed on the borders. These would be sufficient to meet any requirements. In any case since the AF & Artillery is being used at will the ' crust' gets broken making the job of troops easier.

oh be surprised still.

try inducting reserve formations into a theater with battle hardened combatants.....it shall be a field day for the TTP.

The reserve formations of PA are on eastern sector along IB behind the Rangers. They are meant for offensive operations against India and as such they will be the ones withdrawn.

 

[ajpirzada]

For now

I take ISPR's brief as hogwash if they want to use it as a long term statement. Otherwise for present they may not be feeling any need but the need will come as you move into Mingora and other population centers and need to have active troops in sufficient numbers to liquidate the ANEs there and to secure the towns.

You shall need troops and you wont want to move newly inducted recruits here, so they shall come from east like the 2 division worth you have just removed : sindh-punjab sector. Something I had pointed out way earlier will have to be done

there are 130000 on our western border. 15000 to 20000 who are engaged in swat and adjoinin districts. this leaves us with 350000 troops (regular) atleast. how many of this can be new??? we have still got sufficient troops to maintain our current level of deployment on eastern border while sending more to join forces in swat.
we definately dont need to move troops now but may be when it comes to waziristan then we might.