Transcript of Deng Xiaoping meeting Dr. Subramanian Swamy in 1981.
Last fortnight, Swamy was back in the headline-grabbing business following his historic 100-minute interview with Chinese strongman Deng Xiaoping in Beijing's Great Hall of the People.
Deng is vice-chairman of the Communist Party of China and currently the most powerful man in Beijing. His remarks on improving Sino-Indian relations are the first such high level statements since the diplomatic freeze between the two countries following India's recognition of the Heng Samrin regime in Kampuchea last year.
China, for Swamy, has been familiar ground since it was the subject of his Harvard University Ph.D. This was his third visit to China since 1978 and though he was not an official emissary of the Government, the presence of the Indian ambassador in Beijing, S.K. Bajpai, at the interview, presumably on Deng's invitation, elevated the meeting to an inter-governmental communication. Swamy agreed to give India Today exclusive rights to the full transcript of his meeting with Deng, which is reproduced below.
Swamy: It is a great honour for me to meet a great leader of China. I have been your admirer for 15 years.
Deng: Well, this year you are 41. You are in the prime of life. Me, I am already very old.
Swamy: You look very young. It is like my party's former prime minister Mr Morarji Desai. He is 85 but acts younger than I.
Deng: I have never met Mr Morarji Desai but I would like you to give him my regards.
Swamy: Thank you. Excellency, in the last few years there has been a good development in our relations but we are countries with such a long history, and with so much that need our cooperation, it pains me if we do not have the greatest of friendship. I hope that we can develop this much more.
Deng: Yes, we are two big countries. We have had over 2,000 years of good relations and we should have more friendship and cooperation. We have both had great civilisations. We have also had common misfortunes. India was a colonial country and we were semi-colonial. Now we are the two biggest countries in the world. If our two populations were put together it could come to more than one-third of the world but when we talk of ourselves as big countries what do we mean ?
Really just that we have these big populations. We are also poor countries. We face common problems. India is a Third World country, so is China. It is necessary for us to work together. In the early '50s we had very close friendship. Premier Chou En-lai visited India and had a very good visit. Later on Prime Minister Mr Nehru came to China. Then in the late '50s problems developed between us. We had this long period of strain. After that we started to normalise relations.
Actually, what do we mean by this word normalisation? We already have ambassadors in both countries so in that sense relations are normal. However, if we mean that we should have more friendship then certainly that is correct. There is no reason why we should not improve our relations and no reason why we should not have more exchanges between us. This has always been my view. Even when I went to Nepal I said so and in fact there was some positive response from your side to my statement.
Even earlier the late Chairman Mao Zedong was of the same view. I recall that he spoke to your charge d'affaires and then we started trying to improve our relations. Your foreign minister paid us a visit. There have been all these twists and turns in our relations. We even had to postpone the visit of our Foreign Minister Huang Hua. However, it is necessary to work for better relations and in fact we have decided that Huang Hua should visit India soon.
Swamy: I am very glad to hear that Foreign Minister Huang Hua will be visiting us soon. You may be sure he will be given a warm welcome. Actually, the people of India have very warm feelings for China and visitors from China are made welcome. Even the groups - we just had some acrobats who were very well received and you will find that your foreign minister will have nothing but affection from the people of India. They will give him good reception as I am sure the Government of India also will.
Deng: Your Prime Minister Mrs Gandhi was good enough to receive our acrobats. Please thank her for this.
Swamy: Certainly. But you know, Excellency, this has been said before-the Xinhua commentary of last June made the point that the only real outstanding problem between us is the border question. Once that is solved then all questions between us can go and we can really develop our relations into the best of friendship. What is your view on this border issue, how can we solve it?
Deng: Our position on this is very clear. Not only our newspapers, but that is the position of the Government that if we both approach the problem with understanding there will be no difficulty in reaching a solution through repeated discussions. There is my own proposal for a package deal. Until that can be settled let us develop contacts in other fields. Then there is this question of threat. Some people talk of threat in India, that there is a threat from China and in China that there is a threat from India. How can there be any threat? There is the whole Tibetan Plateau between us.
There is very little oxygen and it is not even possible to deploy a large number of troops. From the beginning of the People's Republic of China (PRC) we have hardly any troops near you. We can never be a threat to you nor do we think you a threat to us. Actually, we are told that you have many more troops on your side of the border than we have on ours but that does not make you a threat.
Even if you were to take part of Tibet, that would not be a threat to China. It is not India by itself that could be a threat. What we consider a danger is that some other force may take a hand there. The real threat is from the North. There are a million troops deployed there. Moreover, the Soviet Union is instigating Vietnam to make it a threat from the South.
Swamy: I entirely agree with you but you know there is one problem people - in India wonder - you know in all the years after our crisis, in spite of our differences India never changed its position; whether on your admission to the United Nations, whether on Taiwan question, whether on Tibet, the Indian position was to support you completely but on your side statements used to be made - all sorts of things are said and our public wonders about your wanting to be friends; so some sort of gesture would be useful. On Sikkim for instance why can't you accept that it is part of India. As to the way it happened - our former prime minister, Mr Morarji Desai has said he did like the way it was done but he also made it clear these things are irreversible.
India is a merger of states and once merged; nothing can be done. I ask because your maps show it separate and so questions are asked by people in India that you do not want our relations to improve. The Soviet lobby is very - active every day the Soviet Union has it in papers that we should not trust you, that you are too clever and will fool us. There are so many planted stories. So if you do not recognise the position on Sikkim, there are many people who take advantage of this whereas if you were to recognise it, it would be a good gesture of your intentions and it would help people like me who want to advocate friendship with China.
Deng: On Sikkim our position is very clear. We made an official statement at the time of annexation that we could not accept annexation. We disapprove because it is contrary both to international norms and to morality. We will not change our position on this. Indeed, there is no reason why we should change our position. We can never approve of the annexation. However, we have also said that we will not mention or make use of the subject when discussing Sino-Indian relations. Actually, I told this both to a journalist from India and to your
Foreign Secretary, Mr Gonsalves, when he came here. I repeat again we will not mention or make use of this subject in discussing the improvement of Sino-Indian relations. It is important that we improve our bilateral relations. We have to take note of the situation in the world and act in the larger context.
Swamy: I believe that when President Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan was here last year, he had said to you that he would like to improve relations with India. Actually, there was some progress. Our ambassador here used to be ambassador in Pakistan and I know he did a very good job. It is very necessary for us to have good relations with Pakistan. Lately there have been some hold ups.
I mention our Sino-Indian bilateral relations because of the importance I attach to friendship but I agree with you that it is not only our bilateral relations, it is our relations with neighbours and the position of China and India in the subcontinent and in Asia as a whole that are important. I wonder if you could comment on how we could bring about better relations in the subcontinent and what China could do in that context.
Deng: It is certainly very important that you improve your relations with your neighbours. They worry about you. It is not only Pakistan, there is Nepal, there is Bangladesh, even Sri Lanka. We know these countries. We have contact with them and we hear their views about you and their relations with you. There is Bhutan also. We do not know very much about Bhutan but generally, where your neighbours are concerned you are so big and they are so small. Actually in the subcontinent you are the big brother. The big brother has to show more understanding of the smaller.
Swamy: I agree with you entirely that you know these neighbours. When you have a smaller neighbour there are problems. You have neighbour Vietnam which is very afraid of you. Would you tell me how you think you could improve relations with Vietnam?
Deng: As regards Vietnam I do not think you are well informed. We could not understand their attitude towards us. Look at it from the very beginning China had excellent relations. We helped them all along first in their struggle against their colonial masters France then during their war with America. We were a poor country - we are a poor country - but we tightened our belts and gave them everything we could, even if we had to do without things. Actually we gave them over 20 billion dollars worth of help. We could not understand why they turned against us. Soviet Union has instigated them. They are an ungrateful nation. But that would not matter.
When Cambodia was having to fight its war against imperialists we also have had to help Cambodia. We have no common border with Cambodia. Everything we sent had to go through Vietnam then we found they were taking it themselves. Nothing that we sent reached the Cambodians. The greedy Vietnamese were keeping it all even though it meant denying help to, our friends in Cambodia. The Russians have been at work and the leadership in Vietnam has been instigated by the Russians to be a threat to us.
We were very patient but everyday there were provocations. Finally, we decided we had to teach them a lesson. I said this when I was in America. Mr Carter did not like it. He did not approve but we said it had to be done. We have no enmity against Vietnam but when they behaved like that it was necessary to teach them a lesson so we sent our forces and after we had taught them a lesson that they could not behave like that then we withdrew our forces.
Actually on this there was a lot of questioning because it happened when your foreign minister was here and you all said why did you not tell us in advance. The fact is we forgot about it. We had been saying it for so many months we thought everybody knew. There was no secret. We had said so many times. I can assure you there was no intention on our part to do it while your foreign minister was here. It just happened but we had no aggressive intentions towards Vietnam. We would like friendship but they did not allow it.
Swamy: In regard to the international situation, would you say that the danger of war has increased? The situation in Poland is very worrying. The Soviet Union has already moved into Afghanistan and there is this danger now in Poland., You used to say that another world war is inevitable but do you think the danger has increased?
Deng: Certainly there is great danger but we do not think it necessary to say that it is immediate and that it does not have to happen now. However, if it is to be delayed we have to be vigilant. The first two world wars started over small things. Whether it is Afghanistan, whether it is Poland we have to be vigilant, whether these are beginnings of other things.
Swamy: Thank you. You are a very busy man. You have very important responsibilities but I would like to just ask three more questions. First, your relations with the United States. How do you view them?
Deng: With the United States there is no reason, from the beginning, why we should not be friends except Taiwan and their two China theory. If they do this, it will not only put an end to progress in Sino-US relations, it would be a retrogression. We have made this clear to the Americans. We have spoken to them many times and said that we would like to be friends but this is one matter which we cannot stand.
They have assured us that they have no such intention. They too have talked to us. We have said what about Reagan's campaign speeches? They have said his campaign speeches were only for the campaign and that is now over. However, we must remember the Reagan Administration is less than three months in office and we should wait and see whether its foreign policy stabilises.
Swamy: What about Sino-USSR relations? You said that the danger is from the North and I agree with you but do you see any possibility of your improving relations with the Russians?
Deng: As for improving relations with the USSR, there is nothing in the way if the USSR gives up hegemonism. That is what has caused the problem with us and with other countries. We could be friends easily if they were to give up their hegemonism but is it possible to imagine that? Their policy is that of the Czars. Actually, that was the problem. We wanted to improve relations and we started having talks with them but then they moved into Afghanistan and we had to break off the talks. They behave as expansionists.
They have been instigating Vietnam as I have already told you. Then there is their action in Afghanistan. You know this is an attempt to get to the Indian Ocean. Actually, this is a matter for you to worry about and Russians always tried to use others even the war between China and India. Khrushchev visited India in 1959 and what developed from that. It is Soviet hegemonism that is the danger and it is for your country to consider it also.
Swamy: I again agree entirely with you, but to change to another subject. You have lately been laying stress you have moved away from earlier emphasis on heavy industry and have been stressing the need to develop light industry and provide more consumer goods for your people. There is this readjustment going on. Is this a permanent shift in your economic strategy or is this emphasis on light industry only for a short period ?
Deng: This is while we complete our readjustment. The fact is that we have made mistakes from the beginning and we find we have gone wrong because we started the wrong way. We now have to start again and we find we have made other mistakes. So it is necessary for us to look carefully and make the necessary readjustment but our present approach is for this period of readjustment.
Swamy: One last question. Excellency. you are good enough to note that I am still young. I would like to develop my political career and serve my people in the years to come. You have done so much - as I said I have been your admirer for the last 15 years - is there any advice you would give me?
Deng: The only thing that I can say is that I have always been an optimist. Even when things were going wrong I have remained an optimist and I have always been right. When I look back I think one should be calm and never give up. I remain an optimist also about our relations.
Swamy: Thank you, I must remember that.
Deng: (starting to get up). Thank you for your visit.
Bajpai: Excuse me. I do not wish to delay you Mr Vice-Chairman but I would like to say a few words.
Deng: Please.
Bajpai: I did not wish to intervene before because this is Dr Swamy's day. It is his call on you and I am here by courtesy Actually, I have just returned from Delhi and I have already spoken to your Foreign Office that I had an opportunity to talk to with my leaders and in the light of my discussions I hope to call on the leaden here in due course. I hope that some day soon I can call or your excellency and perhaps 1 can then discuss some of these matters more fully.
At the moment I would not go into details but I am bound to say that or a number of formulations the Government of India would agree with either of you - your excellency or Dr Swamy - whether it is what you said about Sikkim or when you referred to an unfortunate period of our relations with you and to our being egged on by Mr Khruschev.
I have been most encouraged by many of your remarks and by your basic approach that you would like to see further improvement of relations with India. That is also the policy of the Government of India and we would like to see further improvement of relations with China but if you are going to have misconceptions about us if for example you assume that India can be instigated in a particular policy by another country then I am afraid the task of improving relations becomes very much more difficult.
I think we have both to realise that we are each sovereign independent countries and just as you take your decisions on the basis of your own judgement and analysis, India also decides for itself. If misconceptions to the contrary persist their as I say it becomes much more difficult to improve relations. If, however, we respect each other's independence of judgement and action then I am sure the Government of India would share the optimism you have expressed just as we share the desire for improvement of relations.
Deng: That is all right - it does not matter if we do not agree on some points.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...work-together-deng-xiaoping-805957-2014-02-24
Last fortnight, Swamy was back in the headline-grabbing business following his historic 100-minute interview with Chinese strongman Deng Xiaoping in Beijing's Great Hall of the People.
Deng is vice-chairman of the Communist Party of China and currently the most powerful man in Beijing. His remarks on improving Sino-Indian relations are the first such high level statements since the diplomatic freeze between the two countries following India's recognition of the Heng Samrin regime in Kampuchea last year.
China, for Swamy, has been familiar ground since it was the subject of his Harvard University Ph.D. This was his third visit to China since 1978 and though he was not an official emissary of the Government, the presence of the Indian ambassador in Beijing, S.K. Bajpai, at the interview, presumably on Deng's invitation, elevated the meeting to an inter-governmental communication. Swamy agreed to give India Today exclusive rights to the full transcript of his meeting with Deng, which is reproduced below.
Swamy: It is a great honour for me to meet a great leader of China. I have been your admirer for 15 years.
Deng: Well, this year you are 41. You are in the prime of life. Me, I am already very old.
Swamy: You look very young. It is like my party's former prime minister Mr Morarji Desai. He is 85 but acts younger than I.
Deng: I have never met Mr Morarji Desai but I would like you to give him my regards.
Swamy: Thank you. Excellency, in the last few years there has been a good development in our relations but we are countries with such a long history, and with so much that need our cooperation, it pains me if we do not have the greatest of friendship. I hope that we can develop this much more.
Deng: Yes, we are two big countries. We have had over 2,000 years of good relations and we should have more friendship and cooperation. We have both had great civilisations. We have also had common misfortunes. India was a colonial country and we were semi-colonial. Now we are the two biggest countries in the world. If our two populations were put together it could come to more than one-third of the world but when we talk of ourselves as big countries what do we mean ?
Really just that we have these big populations. We are also poor countries. We face common problems. India is a Third World country, so is China. It is necessary for us to work together. In the early '50s we had very close friendship. Premier Chou En-lai visited India and had a very good visit. Later on Prime Minister Mr Nehru came to China. Then in the late '50s problems developed between us. We had this long period of strain. After that we started to normalise relations.
Actually, what do we mean by this word normalisation? We already have ambassadors in both countries so in that sense relations are normal. However, if we mean that we should have more friendship then certainly that is correct. There is no reason why we should not improve our relations and no reason why we should not have more exchanges between us. This has always been my view. Even when I went to Nepal I said so and in fact there was some positive response from your side to my statement.
Even earlier the late Chairman Mao Zedong was of the same view. I recall that he spoke to your charge d'affaires and then we started trying to improve our relations. Your foreign minister paid us a visit. There have been all these twists and turns in our relations. We even had to postpone the visit of our Foreign Minister Huang Hua. However, it is necessary to work for better relations and in fact we have decided that Huang Hua should visit India soon.
Swamy: I am very glad to hear that Foreign Minister Huang Hua will be visiting us soon. You may be sure he will be given a warm welcome. Actually, the people of India have very warm feelings for China and visitors from China are made welcome. Even the groups - we just had some acrobats who were very well received and you will find that your foreign minister will have nothing but affection from the people of India. They will give him good reception as I am sure the Government of India also will.
Deng: Your Prime Minister Mrs Gandhi was good enough to receive our acrobats. Please thank her for this.
Swamy: Certainly. But you know, Excellency, this has been said before-the Xinhua commentary of last June made the point that the only real outstanding problem between us is the border question. Once that is solved then all questions between us can go and we can really develop our relations into the best of friendship. What is your view on this border issue, how can we solve it?
Deng: Our position on this is very clear. Not only our newspapers, but that is the position of the Government that if we both approach the problem with understanding there will be no difficulty in reaching a solution through repeated discussions. There is my own proposal for a package deal. Until that can be settled let us develop contacts in other fields. Then there is this question of threat. Some people talk of threat in India, that there is a threat from China and in China that there is a threat from India. How can there be any threat? There is the whole Tibetan Plateau between us.
There is very little oxygen and it is not even possible to deploy a large number of troops. From the beginning of the People's Republic of China (PRC) we have hardly any troops near you. We can never be a threat to you nor do we think you a threat to us. Actually, we are told that you have many more troops on your side of the border than we have on ours but that does not make you a threat.
Even if you were to take part of Tibet, that would not be a threat to China. It is not India by itself that could be a threat. What we consider a danger is that some other force may take a hand there. The real threat is from the North. There are a million troops deployed there. Moreover, the Soviet Union is instigating Vietnam to make it a threat from the South.
Swamy: I entirely agree with you but you know there is one problem people - in India wonder - you know in all the years after our crisis, in spite of our differences India never changed its position; whether on your admission to the United Nations, whether on Taiwan question, whether on Tibet, the Indian position was to support you completely but on your side statements used to be made - all sorts of things are said and our public wonders about your wanting to be friends; so some sort of gesture would be useful. On Sikkim for instance why can't you accept that it is part of India. As to the way it happened - our former prime minister, Mr Morarji Desai has said he did like the way it was done but he also made it clear these things are irreversible.
India is a merger of states and once merged; nothing can be done. I ask because your maps show it separate and so questions are asked by people in India that you do not want our relations to improve. The Soviet lobby is very - active every day the Soviet Union has it in papers that we should not trust you, that you are too clever and will fool us. There are so many planted stories. So if you do not recognise the position on Sikkim, there are many people who take advantage of this whereas if you were to recognise it, it would be a good gesture of your intentions and it would help people like me who want to advocate friendship with China.
Deng: On Sikkim our position is very clear. We made an official statement at the time of annexation that we could not accept annexation. We disapprove because it is contrary both to international norms and to morality. We will not change our position on this. Indeed, there is no reason why we should change our position. We can never approve of the annexation. However, we have also said that we will not mention or make use of the subject when discussing Sino-Indian relations. Actually, I told this both to a journalist from India and to your
Foreign Secretary, Mr Gonsalves, when he came here. I repeat again we will not mention or make use of this subject in discussing the improvement of Sino-Indian relations. It is important that we improve our bilateral relations. We have to take note of the situation in the world and act in the larger context.
Swamy: I believe that when President Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan was here last year, he had said to you that he would like to improve relations with India. Actually, there was some progress. Our ambassador here used to be ambassador in Pakistan and I know he did a very good job. It is very necessary for us to have good relations with Pakistan. Lately there have been some hold ups.
I mention our Sino-Indian bilateral relations because of the importance I attach to friendship but I agree with you that it is not only our bilateral relations, it is our relations with neighbours and the position of China and India in the subcontinent and in Asia as a whole that are important. I wonder if you could comment on how we could bring about better relations in the subcontinent and what China could do in that context.
Deng: It is certainly very important that you improve your relations with your neighbours. They worry about you. It is not only Pakistan, there is Nepal, there is Bangladesh, even Sri Lanka. We know these countries. We have contact with them and we hear their views about you and their relations with you. There is Bhutan also. We do not know very much about Bhutan but generally, where your neighbours are concerned you are so big and they are so small. Actually in the subcontinent you are the big brother. The big brother has to show more understanding of the smaller.
Swamy: I agree with you entirely that you know these neighbours. When you have a smaller neighbour there are problems. You have neighbour Vietnam which is very afraid of you. Would you tell me how you think you could improve relations with Vietnam?
Deng: As regards Vietnam I do not think you are well informed. We could not understand their attitude towards us. Look at it from the very beginning China had excellent relations. We helped them all along first in their struggle against their colonial masters France then during their war with America. We were a poor country - we are a poor country - but we tightened our belts and gave them everything we could, even if we had to do without things. Actually we gave them over 20 billion dollars worth of help. We could not understand why they turned against us. Soviet Union has instigated them. They are an ungrateful nation. But that would not matter.
When Cambodia was having to fight its war against imperialists we also have had to help Cambodia. We have no common border with Cambodia. Everything we sent had to go through Vietnam then we found they were taking it themselves. Nothing that we sent reached the Cambodians. The greedy Vietnamese were keeping it all even though it meant denying help to, our friends in Cambodia. The Russians have been at work and the leadership in Vietnam has been instigated by the Russians to be a threat to us.
We were very patient but everyday there were provocations. Finally, we decided we had to teach them a lesson. I said this when I was in America. Mr Carter did not like it. He did not approve but we said it had to be done. We have no enmity against Vietnam but when they behaved like that it was necessary to teach them a lesson so we sent our forces and after we had taught them a lesson that they could not behave like that then we withdrew our forces.
Actually on this there was a lot of questioning because it happened when your foreign minister was here and you all said why did you not tell us in advance. The fact is we forgot about it. We had been saying it for so many months we thought everybody knew. There was no secret. We had said so many times. I can assure you there was no intention on our part to do it while your foreign minister was here. It just happened but we had no aggressive intentions towards Vietnam. We would like friendship but they did not allow it.
Swamy: In regard to the international situation, would you say that the danger of war has increased? The situation in Poland is very worrying. The Soviet Union has already moved into Afghanistan and there is this danger now in Poland., You used to say that another world war is inevitable but do you think the danger has increased?
Deng: Certainly there is great danger but we do not think it necessary to say that it is immediate and that it does not have to happen now. However, if it is to be delayed we have to be vigilant. The first two world wars started over small things. Whether it is Afghanistan, whether it is Poland we have to be vigilant, whether these are beginnings of other things.
Swamy: Thank you. You are a very busy man. You have very important responsibilities but I would like to just ask three more questions. First, your relations with the United States. How do you view them?
Deng: With the United States there is no reason, from the beginning, why we should not be friends except Taiwan and their two China theory. If they do this, it will not only put an end to progress in Sino-US relations, it would be a retrogression. We have made this clear to the Americans. We have spoken to them many times and said that we would like to be friends but this is one matter which we cannot stand.
They have assured us that they have no such intention. They too have talked to us. We have said what about Reagan's campaign speeches? They have said his campaign speeches were only for the campaign and that is now over. However, we must remember the Reagan Administration is less than three months in office and we should wait and see whether its foreign policy stabilises.
Swamy: What about Sino-USSR relations? You said that the danger is from the North and I agree with you but do you see any possibility of your improving relations with the Russians?
Deng: As for improving relations with the USSR, there is nothing in the way if the USSR gives up hegemonism. That is what has caused the problem with us and with other countries. We could be friends easily if they were to give up their hegemonism but is it possible to imagine that? Their policy is that of the Czars. Actually, that was the problem. We wanted to improve relations and we started having talks with them but then they moved into Afghanistan and we had to break off the talks. They behave as expansionists.
They have been instigating Vietnam as I have already told you. Then there is their action in Afghanistan. You know this is an attempt to get to the Indian Ocean. Actually, this is a matter for you to worry about and Russians always tried to use others even the war between China and India. Khrushchev visited India in 1959 and what developed from that. It is Soviet hegemonism that is the danger and it is for your country to consider it also.
Swamy: I again agree entirely with you, but to change to another subject. You have lately been laying stress you have moved away from earlier emphasis on heavy industry and have been stressing the need to develop light industry and provide more consumer goods for your people. There is this readjustment going on. Is this a permanent shift in your economic strategy or is this emphasis on light industry only for a short period ?
Deng: This is while we complete our readjustment. The fact is that we have made mistakes from the beginning and we find we have gone wrong because we started the wrong way. We now have to start again and we find we have made other mistakes. So it is necessary for us to look carefully and make the necessary readjustment but our present approach is for this period of readjustment.
Swamy: One last question. Excellency. you are good enough to note that I am still young. I would like to develop my political career and serve my people in the years to come. You have done so much - as I said I have been your admirer for the last 15 years - is there any advice you would give me?
Deng: The only thing that I can say is that I have always been an optimist. Even when things were going wrong I have remained an optimist and I have always been right. When I look back I think one should be calm and never give up. I remain an optimist also about our relations.
Swamy: Thank you, I must remember that.
Deng: (starting to get up). Thank you for your visit.
Bajpai: Excuse me. I do not wish to delay you Mr Vice-Chairman but I would like to say a few words.
Deng: Please.
Bajpai: I did not wish to intervene before because this is Dr Swamy's day. It is his call on you and I am here by courtesy Actually, I have just returned from Delhi and I have already spoken to your Foreign Office that I had an opportunity to talk to with my leaders and in the light of my discussions I hope to call on the leaden here in due course. I hope that some day soon I can call or your excellency and perhaps 1 can then discuss some of these matters more fully.
At the moment I would not go into details but I am bound to say that or a number of formulations the Government of India would agree with either of you - your excellency or Dr Swamy - whether it is what you said about Sikkim or when you referred to an unfortunate period of our relations with you and to our being egged on by Mr Khruschev.
I have been most encouraged by many of your remarks and by your basic approach that you would like to see further improvement of relations with India. That is also the policy of the Government of India and we would like to see further improvement of relations with China but if you are going to have misconceptions about us if for example you assume that India can be instigated in a particular policy by another country then I am afraid the task of improving relations becomes very much more difficult.
I think we have both to realise that we are each sovereign independent countries and just as you take your decisions on the basis of your own judgement and analysis, India also decides for itself. If misconceptions to the contrary persist their as I say it becomes much more difficult to improve relations. If, however, we respect each other's independence of judgement and action then I am sure the Government of India would share the optimism you have expressed just as we share the desire for improvement of relations.
Deng: That is all right - it does not matter if we do not agree on some points.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...work-together-deng-xiaoping-805957-2014-02-24
