The Military History of Pakistan/Pakistanis

[Hamza913]

Long before the Pakistani military, the people of the Indus were also making weaponry

Pakistan has a rich tradition of making weaponry, all of which has built up to modern day equipment like the JF-17, Al Khalid MBT or Project AZM. This is where it all started:

These weapons come from Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa, both cities that were part of the Indus Valley Civilisation. It seems probable that these weapons would have been mostly used to hunt animals, deal with criminals, and defend oneself from uncivilised raiders. Unfortunately, we can never know for sure unless and until Indus script is deciphered, but we can make an educated guess based on our current knowledge of history.

How peaceful was Harappan Civilization?

Tools/Weapons/Technology

Our land has also been the abode of many great military figures

Porus was a King from Jhelum who put up a brave fight against Alexander, inflicting large casualties upon his army and killing his horse, Bucephalus. Despite losing the battle, Alexander was so impressed by the behaviour of Porus that made him his satrap, and gifted him an even larger area to ruler over. The difficulty of the battle also resulted in Alexander's forces simply refusing to progress any further, fearful of what other nearby kingdoms could do to them if such an insignificsnt ruler like Porus almost defeated them.

Here’s a coin depicting Porus on an elephant, fighting Alexander of Macedon:

Porus

Alexander’s Invasion

Khushal Khan Khattak was a Pashtun poet from Peshawar, who also engaged in frequent warfare with the Mughals and attempted to unite the Pashtuns against them:

Khushal Khan Khattak

Ahmed Khan Karral was a Punjabi freedom fighter from Pakistan, who fought against both the Sikh and British Empire, fighting against the latter while in his 70’s:

Kharal and Berkley II

Abdullah Bhatti was another Punjabi freedom fighter who came from Pindi Bhattian, and just like Khushal Khan Khattak he too had a bone to pick with the Mughals for killing some of his family members. He was renowned for stealing from the Mughals and redistributing their wealth among the poor:

Dulla Bhatti

Shahbaz Khan was also a Punjabi, who hailed from Lahore, and was the Mughal emperor Akbar’s top general. He expanded the Mughal Empire greatly, participating in some of its fiercest battles. He also harshly put down rebellions in the Bengal, and revolutionised the Mughal military system so that costs could be kept down, and efficiency would be at its maximum:

Shahbaz Khan

HARKING BACK: The `guzar`named after great Kamboh general

People from Pakistan have also acted as good soldiers for other empires in the region

Xerxes utilised soldiers from the Indus while invading Greece:

History of Ancient Pakistan

Muhammad Bin Qasim had many Gujjars and Baluchis in his military:

Muhammad bin Qasim

The Mughal emperor Babur employed many Gakhars and Pashtuns into his military:

History of Gakhars

Babur's relations with Pashtun tribes

Mahmud Ghaznavi also employed large numbers of Indo-Aryans (mainly Punjabis) and Pashtuns as well as Baluchis into his army, as did the Ghurids:

Ghaznavids had large number of Hindus in their army

THE AFGHANS AND THEIR RELATIONS WITH THE GHAZNAVIDS AND THE GHURIDS (please note the word Afghan is often used interchangeably with the word Pashtun, hence why the link mentions Afghans rather than Pashtuns)

The British Indian Army also had a large number of people from modern day Pakistan, such as the famous Khyber Rifles:

Khyber Rifles

We've produced many great dynasties/empires too

Hyder Ali, the famous ruler of Mysore had a Punjabi grandfather. He defeated both the Marathas and the British Empire. During his rule, the Kingdom of Mysore also went through huge economic development, eventually surpassing London in terms of standard of living. He was also the father of the legendary Tipu Sultan, who also defeated the Maratha’s and fought bravely against the British Empire.

Unravelling history: Tracing Tipu Sultan’s ancestry to Kolar and Tumakuru district

Hyder Ali | emperor of India

Tippu Sultan | sultan of Mysore

The Lodi and Durrani Empire's were founded by Pashtuns from Pakistan. The Durrani Empire at its largest extent also had borders that mimicked the Islamic Republic of Pakistan's almost to the letter.

A map of the Durrani Empire at its peak:

Ahmad Shah Durrani: A King of High Rank

Lodī dynasty

The Shah Mir dynasty were a dynasty of Gujjars originally from Swat who ruled over all of Pakistani and Hindustani Kashmir, along with some other nearby territories. Their most notable ruler was Sikander Shah Mir, he earned the title of iconoclast because he was known for breaking Hindu statues/temples that belonged to his enemies (please remember that his time was a different one). He was also a brilliant architect, designing the Jamia Masjid in modern day Hindustani Kashmir.

Jamia Masjid:

Sultan Sikandar : The Man and the Myth - Lost Kashmiri History

Shah Mir dynasty

Ain I Akbari

The Rind dynasty were a Baluchi dynasty who ruled over southern Pakistan, and at one point even sacked Delhi.

The tomb of Mir Chakar Rind (ruler of the Rind dynasty):

Mir Chakar Rind

Chakar-i-Azam

Mir Chakar Khan Rind - A Warrior Hero Of Baluchistan & Punjab Provinces of Pakistan

The Samma dynasty was a powerful dynasty of Sindhi Rajputs that also ruled over much of southern Pakistan, and ushered in the golden age of Sindh with truly magnificent architecture (unfortunately, much of it has decayed). They also managed to sucessfully repulse a Mughal invasion under the ruler Jam Nizamuddin II.

Samma architecture:

Jam Nizamuddin II: The Sultan of the Samma dynasty

The Maqpon dynasty was a dynasty from Gilgit-Baltistan that at its peak under Ali Sher Khan Anchan had spread to include much of northern Pakistan and Hindustan.

A map of the Maqpon dynasty's territory at its peak:

Ali Sher Khan Anchan

Gilgit-Baltistan

@Indus Pakistan @Indus Priest King @Samlee @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @war&peace @Saif al-Arab @HannibalBarca @Ahmad Sajjad Paracha @Ahmet Pasha @Iqbal Ali @newb3e @AfrazulMandal @Zuraib Qasit Khan Deccani @Luffy 500 @M.R.9 @Kambojaric @Army research @Champion_Usmani @Clutch @Areesh @Zibago @django @Horus @Mentee @maximuswarrior @Imran Khan @Reichsmarschall @Talwar e Pakistan @ThanatosI @Windjammer @RiazHaq @WebMaster @TMA @DESERT FIGHTER @Desert Fox @waz @Mugwop @Albatross @RealNapster @Dalit @Ocean @Starlord @hussain0216 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Azadkashmir @Taimoor Khan @Cobra Arbok

Gentlemen, please feel free to contribute to the thread. I'd also appreciate it if someone could make this a sticky, thanks.

 

[Samlee]

Baba Ahmed Shah Was Born And Raised In Multan.Afghans Can Own Him As Much As They Want The Fact Is That He Was A Pakistani

 

[Hamza913]

Baba Ahmed Shah Was Born And Raised In Multan.Afghans Can Own Him As Much As They Want The Fact Is That He Was A Pakistani

Asalamu Alaikum

The same can be said about Khushal Khan Khattak.

The hypocrisy of Afghan nationalists never fails to amaze me, they say we are odd for naming missiles after Ghazi's like Ghaznavi or Ghauri, but then they call Ahmed Shah Durrani the father of their nation and make Khushal Khan Khattak their national poet.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Great post brother. Keep up the good work.

 

[MBT 3000]

timurids?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Look guys we are like a tree being eaten up from one side by Indians and the other side by Afghans. And a country of 200 million people sat on one of the world great river basins - Indus ends up with zero heritage. It's like we are 200 million orphans.

The reason is Indians and Afghans have chose to crack our country in half. The western half has been claimed by Afghans and the easern half by Indians. Anything remotely of heritage or cultural value in the west is branded as Afghan and anything in the east as Indian. It's like having a house but both your neighbours effectively own everuthing inside it leaving you looking on as a amused stranger.

You know many years ago when exposed to the continous bite by the termites [from both sides] I used to feel insecure and not quite sure of who I was. I was not very religious so I could not exactly salve this insecuity in breing 'Muslim'. Even that was a problem. There are nearly 40 Muslim countries straddled from Africa, Europe to Asia. That hardly tied me down a identity. It merely made me a member of a global conglomerate. At heaet of this was the widely peddled notion of Pakistan's artificiality which of course is peddled mostly by our neighbours but also western [read English] writers who can't come to terms that their "Raj" was divided and Jinnah is seen as the villain.

But then slowly I began to see the deciet and lies of those who peddled the idea of a cracked/artificial Pakistan. First take Afghanistan. Who is Afghan? If Afghan is Pashtun then that leaves out the Turkic Uzbeks, Turkmen, the Faris Tajiks and I would not even know where to place the Mongol Shia Hazara. Meaning Afghanistan is also 'cracked' along ethnic lines. And Afghanistan is also a recent creation. Below is 'cracked' Afghanistan along major ethnic groups. You have Turkic, Mongol and Persian peoples divided by mountains and a conflicted, bloody history.

And then we move to India. Can anyone seriously tell me that there would have been a Indian Republic today with capital at New Delhi if a greedy English business called East India Company had not arrived in South Asia. Please tell me what can be more artificial then Englishmen making your country driven by greed and before leaving even building you a new capital by naming it "New Delhi"?

Then a quick glance at India shows she is a composite of varied people. You find almost every major human racial group within India. From Indo-Aryan, to Dravidian, to Aborginals, to Tibeto-Burmans. India has cracks, indeed even bigger cracks then Pakistan has. Some time ago I had @Pademchen who I believe is Parsee reminding me of the Iranic/Indo crack in Pakistan. The irony was sweet. He is Indian of Iranic stock and he is reminding me of our crack. Think about how craz this is. Pot calling the kettle black. Afghans will also remind us of our cracks but ignore their own as if they are one homogenous peoples with a unified history going back thousand of years ago.

So wher do we stand? Well the problem is with us Pakistani's. We are ourselves unsure and our language displas weakness. We are shy or ashamed of using Pakistan and will makes excuses like 'Asian, Desi, Apna" etc. Is it no wonder then that our neighbours come and plunder our heritage? What we need to do is despite our own internal politics but at external level show vicious adherence to brand Pakistan.

Please no more desi food, desi clothes, Asian culture, Apna music, Indian food. Everything begins with Pakistan and ends with Pakistan. You do that and soon enough you will have a strong identity. Don't do that you will still be a artificial desi in 1,000 years time. I am glad to see threads on Ancient Pakistan/Pakistan.

And a a general rule of the thumb try to stick within borders of Pakistan. If you begin to go beyond that by using some justification then you are inviting Indians and Afghans to do the same. That is a slippery slope. So I prefer to keep it clear and sharp. Trust me we have more then our share of heritage to be proud of.

@Kambojaric
@UnitedPak
@Taimur Khurram
etc

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Long before the Pakistani military, the people of the Indus were also making weaponry

Pakistan has a rich tradition of making weaponry, all of which has built up to modern day equipment like the JF-17, Al Khalid MBT or Project AZM. This is where it all started:

These weapons come from Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa, both cities that were part of the Indus Valley Civilisation. It seems probable that these weapons would have been mostly used to hunt animals, deal with criminals, and defend oneself from uncivilised raiders. Unfortunately, we can never know for sure unless and until Indus script is deciphered, but we can make an educated guess based on our current knowledge of history.

How peaceful was Harappan Civilization?

Tools/Weapons/Technology

Our land has also been the abode of many great military figures

Porus was a King from Jhelum who put up a brave fight against Alexander, inflicting large casualties upon his army and killing his horse, Bucephalus. Despite losing the battle, Alexander was so impressed by the behaviour of Porus that made him his satrap, and gifted him an even larger area to ruler over. The difficulty of the battle also resulted in Alexander's forces simply refusing to progress any further, fearful of what other nearby kingdoms could do to them if such an insignificsnt ruler like Porus almost defeated them.

Here’s a coin depicting Porus on an elephant, fighting Alexander of Macedon:

Porus

Alexander’s Invasion

Khushal Khan Khattak was a Pashtun poet from Peshawar, who also engaged in frequent warfare with the Mughals and attempted to unite the Pashtuns against them:

Khushal Khan Khattak

Ahmed Khan Karral was a Punjabi freedom fighter from Pakistan, who fought against both the Sikh and British Empire, fighting against the latter while in his 70’s:

Kharal and Berkley II

Abdullah Bhatti was another Punjabi freedom fighter who came from Pindi Bhattian, and just like Khushal Khan Khattak he too had a bone to pick with the Mughals for killing some of his family members. He was renowned for stealing from the Mughals and redistributing their wealth among the poor:

Dulla Bhatti

Shahbaz Khan was also a Punjabi, who hailed from Lahore, and was the Mughal emperor Akbar’s top general. He expanded the Mughal Empire greatly, participating in some of its fiercest battles. He also harshly put down rebellions in the Bengal, and revolutionised the Mughal military system so that costs could be kept down, and efficiency would be at its maximum:

Shahbaz Khan

HARKING BACK: The `guzar`named after great Kamboh general

People from Pakistan have also acted as good soldiers for other empires in the region

Xerxes utilised soldiers from the Indus while invading Greece:

History of Ancient Pakistan

Muhammad Bin Qasim had many Gujjars and Baluchis in his military:

Muhammad bin Qasim

The Mughal emperor Babur employed many Gakhars and Pashtuns into his military:

History of Gakhars

Babur's relations with Pashtun tribes

Mahmud Ghaznavi also employed large numbers of Indo-Aryans (mainly Punjabis) and Pashtuns as well as Baluchis into his army, as did the Ghurids:

Ghaznavids had large number of Hindus in their army

THE AFGHANS AND THEIR RELATIONS WITH THE GHAZNAVIDS AND THE GHURIDS (please note the word Afghan is often used interchangeably with the word Pashtun, hence why the link mentions Afghans rather than Pashtuns)

The British Indian Army also had a large number of people from modern day Pakistan, such as the famous Khyber Rifles:

Khyber Rifles

We've produced many great dynasties/empires too

Hyder Ali, the famous ruler of Mysore had a Punjabi grandfather. He defeated both the Marathas and the British Empire. During his rule, the Kingdom of Mysore also went through huge economic development, eventually surpassing London in terms of standard of living. He was also the father of the legendary Tipu Sultan, who also defeated the Maratha’s and fought bravely against the British Empire.

Unravelling history: Tracing Tipu Sultan’s ancestry to Kolar and Tumakuru district

Hyder Ali | emperor of India

Tippu Sultan | sultan of Mysore

The Lodi and Durrani Empire's were founded by Pashtuns from Pakistan. The Durrani Empire at its largest extent also had borders that mimicked the Islamic Republic of Pakistan's almost to the letter.

A map of the Durrani Empire at its peak:

Ahmad Shah Durrani: A King of High Rank

Lodī dynasty

The Shah Mir dynasty were a dynasty of Gujjars originally from Swat who ruled over all of Pakistani and Hindustani Kashmir, along with some other nearby territories. Their most notable ruler was Sikander Shah Mir, he earned the title of iconoclast because he was known for breaking Hindu statues/temples that belonged to his enemies (please remember that his time was a different one). He was also a brilliant architect, designing the Jamia Masjid in modern day Hindustani Kashmir.

Jamia Masjid:

Sultan Sikandar : The Man and the Myth - Lost Kashmiri History

Shah Mir dynasty

Ain I Akbari

The Rind dynasty were a Baluchi dynasty who ruled over southern Pakistan, and at one point even sacked Delhi.

The tomb of Mir Chakar Rind (ruler of the Rind dynasty):

Mir Chakar Rind

Chakar-i-Azam

Mir Chakar Khan Rind - A Warrior Hero Of Baluchistan & Punjab Provinces of Pakistan

The Samma dynasty was a powerful dynasty of Sindhi Rajputs that also ruled over much of southern Pakistan, and ushered in the golden age of Sindh with truly magnificent architecture (unfortunately, much of it has decayed). They also managed to sucessfully repulse a Mughal invasion under the ruler Jam Nizamuddin II.

Samma architecture:

Jam Nizamuddin II: The Sultan of the Samma dynasty

The Maqpon dynasty was a dynasty from Gilgit-Baltistan that at its peak under Ali Sher Khan Anchan had spread to include much of northern Pakistan and Hindustan.

A map of the Maqpon dynasty's territory at its peak:

Ali Sher Khan Anchan

Gilgit-Baltistan

@Indus Pakistan @Indus Priest King @Samlee @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @war&peace @Saif al-Arab @HannibalBarca @Ahmad Sajjad Paracha @Ahmet Pasha @Iqbal Ali @newb3e @AfrazulMandal @Zuraib Qasit Khan Deccani @Luffy 500 @M.R.9 @Kambojaric @Army research @Champion_Usmani @Clutch @Areesh @Zibago @django @Horus @Mentee @maximuswarrior @Imran Khan @Reichsmarschall @Talwar e Pakistan @ThanatosI @Windjammer @RiazHaq @WebMaster @TMA @DESERT FIGHTER @Desert Fox @waz @Mugwop @Albatross @RealNapster @Dalit @Ocean @Starlord @hussain0216 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Azadkashmir @Taimoor Khan @Cobra Arbok

Gentlemen, please feel free to contribute to the thread. I'd also appreciate it if someone could make this a sticky, thanks.

You forgot Powerful dynasties like the Kalhro,Talpur etc.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

You don't become the biggest civilization of human history, which was three times bigger then Babylon and Egypt combined, just by farming and putting cattle in front of the cart, and sustain it for as long as it did!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Talpur

I have been reading on the Talpurs of Sindh. The Baloch warriors fought like lions against the British in 1843. Instead of muppeting on about Tipu their exploits should be common reading to every Pakistan school child and indeed we should have movies on Hosh Sheedi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoshu_Sheedi

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I have been reading on the Talpurs of Sindh. The Baloch warriors fought like lions against the British in 1843. Instead of muppeting on about Tipu their exploits should be common reading to every Pakistan school child and indeed we should have movies on Hosh Sheedi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoshu_Sheedi

They are as Baloch as they were/are Sindhi...

Half of Sindh is Baluch... its amazing to see so mang Baloch settlers in Sindh who are now trilingual.. and even speak sindhi as their mother tongue while the old timers speak Balochi..

Reason is because of the rather soft Balochistan-Sindh border that has seen cross migration since thousands of years... between the Sindhi and Baloch people... and even our Pashtun and Panjabi cousins (who in interior sindh speak Sindhi or a unique mixed dialect of Serieki & Sindhi in the lower Sindh belt bordering Wasaib (southern Panjab).

I find all our culturea beautiful..

I have been reading on the Talpurs of Sindh. The Baloch warriors fought like lions against the British in 1843. Instead of muppeting on about Tipu their exploits should be common reading to every Pakistan school child and indeed we should have movies on Hosh Sheedi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoshu_Sheedi

The Battle of Hyderabad and the fall of the once mighty Talpur Dynasty..

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Ever since Ibn Qasim, history of the subcontinent as a whole is much richer.

 

[Hamza913]

You forgot Powerful dynasties like the Kalhro,Talpur etc.

Asalamu Alaikum

It would be impossible to mention everything, please feel free to fill in anything I may have missed.

timurids?

Not from Pakistan, and didn't really have a sizeable number of Pakistanis serving under them (unless you're referring to the Mughals, who I did mention).

I'm talking about things purely from a geographical/ethnic standpoint, not from an Islamic one.

Look guys we are like a tree being eaten up from one side by Indians and the other side by Afghans. And a country of 200 million people sat on one of the world great river basins - Indus ends up with zero heritage. It's like we are 200 million orphans.

The reason is Indians and Afghans have chose to crack our country in half. The western half has been claimed by Afghans and the easern half by Indians. Anything remotely of heritage or cultural value in the west is branded as Afghan and anything in the east as Indian. It's like having a house but both your neighbours effectively own everuthing inside it leaving you looking on as a amused stranger.

You know many years ago when exposed to the continous bite by the termites [from both sides] I used to feel insecure and not quite sure of who I was. I was not very religious so I could not exactly salve this insecuity in breing 'Muslim'. Even that was a problem. There are nearly 40 Muslim countries straddled from Africa, Europe to Asia. That hardly tied me down a identity. It merely made me a member of a global conglomerate. At heaet of this was the widely peddled notion of Pakistan's artificiality which of course is peddled mostly by our neighbours but also western [read English] writers who can't come to terms that their "Raj" was divided and Jinnah is seen as the villain.

But then slowly I began to see the deciet and lies of those who peddled the idea of a cracked/artificial Pakistan. First take Afghanistan. Who is Afghan? If Afghan is Pashtun then that leaves out the Turkic Uzbeks, Turkmen, the Faris Tajiks and I would not even know where to place the Mongol Shia Hazara. Meaning Afghanistan is also 'cracked' along ethnic lines. And Afghanistan is also a recent creation. Below is 'cracked' Afghanistan along major ethnic groups. You have Turkic, Mongol and Persian peoples divided by mountains and a conflicted, bloody history.

And then we move to India. Can anyone seriously tell me that there would have been a Indian Republic today with capital at New Delhi if a greedy English business called East India Company had not arrived in South Asia. Please tell me what can be more artificial then Englishmen making your country driven by greed and before leaving even building you a new capital by naming it "New Delhi"?

Then a quick glance at India shows she is a composite of varied people. You find almost every major human racial group within India. From Indo-Aryan, to Dravidian, to Aborginals, to Tibeto-Burmans. India has cracks, indeed even bigger cracks then Pakistan has. Some time ago I had @Pademchen who I believe is Parsee reminding me of the Iranic/Indo crack in Pakistan. The irony was sweet. He is Indian of Iranic stock and he is reminding me of our crack. Think about how craz this is. Pot calling the kettle black. Afghans will also remind us of our cracks but ignore their own as if they are one homogenous peoples with a unified history going back thousand of years ago.

So wher do we stand? Well the problem is with us Pakistani's. We are ourselves unsure and our language displas weakness. We are shy or ashamed of using Pakistan and will makes excuses like 'Asian, Desi, Apna" etc. Is it no wonder then that our neighbours come and plunder our heritage? What we need to do is despite our own internal politics but at external level show vicious adherence to brand Pakistan.

Please no more desi food, desi clothes, Asian culture, Apna music, Indian food. Everything begins with Pakistan and ends with Pakistan. You do that and soon enough you will have a strong identity. Don't do that you will still be a artificial desi in 1,000 years time. I am glad to see threads on Ancient Pakistan/Pakistan.

And a a general rule of the thumb try to stick within borders of Pakistan. If you begin to go beyond that by using some justification then you are inviting Indians and Afghans to do the same. That is a slippery slope. So I prefer to keep it clear and sharp. Trust me we have more then our share of heritage to be proud of.

@Kambojaric
@UnitedPak
@Taimur Khurram
etc

I agree completely.

I cringe whenever a Pakistani uses the word "desi" or says we are "basically the same" as "Indians". We are not the same, and they (most of them anyway) are not from the Indus.

Afghanistan and Hindustan are just as artificial as Pakistan is (the latter even more so), those of them who say Pakistan is a made-up country with no history prior to 1947 are complete dunderheads. Apply the same logic with them and watch how their argument collapses. It's utterly ridiculous, I have no clue how anyone can believe in such horse-crap.

When it comes to Islam, one's pride in being a believer of Islam is a separate thing to enjoying being a particular nationality/ethnicity. One should not conflate the two unless they have an overlap.

 

[RiazHaq]

Asalamu Alaikum

The same can be said about Khushal Khan Khattak.

The hypocrisy of Afghan nationalists never fails to amaze me, they say we are odd for naming missiles after Ghazi's like Ghaznavi or Ghauri, but then they call Ahmed Shah Durrani the father of their nation and make Khushal Khan Khattak their national poet.

Pakistan has a lot more Pashtuns than Afghanistan. The biggest Pashtun city in the world is Karachi, not Kabul.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Asalamu Alaikum

It would be impossible to mention everything, please feel free to fill in anything I may have missed.



Not from Pakistan, and didn't really have a sizeable number of Pakistanis serving under them (unless you're referring to the Mughals, who I did mention).

I'm talking about things purely from a geographical/ethnic standpoint, not from an Islamic one.



I agree completely.

I cringe whenever a Pakistani uses the word "desi" or says we are "basically the same" as "Indians". We are not the same, and they (most of them anyway) are not from the Indus.

Afghanistan and Hindustan are just as artificial as Pakistan is (the latter even more so), those of them who say Pakistan is a made-up country with no history prior to 1947 are complete dunderheads. Apply the same logic with them and watch how their argument collapses. It's utterly ridiculous, I have no clue how anyone can believe in such horse-crap.

When it comes to Islam, one's pride in being a believer of Islam is a separate thing to enjoying being a particular nationality/ethnicity. One should not conflate the two unless they have an overlap.

Exactly we have nothing in common with Indians.

 

[Jackdaws]

Look guys we are like a tree being eaten up from one side by Indians and the other side by Afghans. And a country of 200 million people sat on one of the world great river basins - Indus ends up with zero heritage. It's like we are 200 million orphans.

The reason is Indians and Afghans have chose to crack our country in half. The western half has been claimed by Afghans and the easern half by Indians. Anything remotely of heritage or cultural value in the west is branded as Afghan and anything in the east as Indian. It's like having a house but both your neighbours effectively own everuthing inside it leaving you looking on as a amused stranger.

You know many years ago when exposed to the continous bite by the termites [from both sides] I used to feel insecure and not quite sure of who I was. I was not very religious so I could not exactly salve this insecuity in breing 'Muslim'. Even that was a problem. There are nearly 40 Muslim countries straddled from Africa, Europe to Asia. That hardly tied me down a identity. It merely made me a member of a global conglomerate. At heaet of this was the widely peddled notion of Pakistan's artificiality which of course is peddled mostly by our neighbours but also western [read English] writers who can't come to terms that their "Raj" was divided and Jinnah is seen as the villain.

But then slowly I began to see the deciet and lies of those who peddled the idea of a cracked/artificial Pakistan. First take Afghanistan. Who is Afghan? If Afghan is Pashtun then that leaves out the Turkic Uzbeks, Turkmen, the Faris Tajiks and I would not even know where to place the Mongol Shia Hazara. Meaning Afghanistan is also 'cracked' along ethnic lines. And Afghanistan is also a recent creation. Below is 'cracked' Afghanistan along major ethnic groups. You have Turkic, Mongol and Persian peoples divided by mountains and a conflicted, bloody history.

And then we move to India. Can anyone seriously tell me that there would have been a Indian Republic today with capital at New Delhi if a greedy English business called East India Company had not arrived in South Asia. Please tell me what can be more artificial then Englishmen making your country driven by greed and before leaving even building you a new capital by naming it "New Delhi"?

Then a quick glance at India shows she is a composite of varied people. You find almost every major human racial group within India. From Indo-Aryan, to Dravidian, to Aborginals, to Tibeto-Burmans. India has cracks, indeed even bigger cracks then Pakistan has. Some time ago I had @Pademchen who I believe is Parsee reminding me of the Iranic/Indo crack in Pakistan. The irony was sweet. He is Indian of Iranic stock and he is reminding me of our crack. Think about how craz this is. Pot calling the kettle black. Afghans will also remind us of our cracks but ignore their own as if they are one homogenous peoples with a unified history going back thousand of years ago.

So wher do we stand? Well the problem is with us Pakistani's. We are ourselves unsure and our language displas weakness. We are shy or ashamed of using Pakistan and will makes excuses like 'Asian, Desi, Apna" etc. Is it no wonder then that our neighbours come and plunder our heritage? What we need to do is despite our own internal politics but at external level show vicious adherence to brand Pakistan.

Please no more desi food, desi clothes, Asian culture, Apna music, Indian food. Everything begins with Pakistan and ends with Pakistan. You do that and soon enough you will have a strong identity. Don't do that you will still be a artificial desi in 1,000 years time. I am glad to see threads on Ancient Pakistan/Pakistan.

And a a general rule of the thumb try to stick within borders of Pakistan. If you begin to go beyond that by using some justification then you are inviting Indians and Afghans to do the same. That is a slippery slope. So I prefer to keep it clear and sharp. Trust me we have more then our share of heritage to be proud of.

@Kambojaric
@UnitedPak
@Taimur Khurram
etc

I agree with most of your post about India.
It really is very diverse and no, without the British Raj it would not have been a unified nation.

Pakistan and Pakistanis too must be proud of their history and their land. It is natural.

Regarding Indians claiming "eastern half of Pakistan" - that's simply not true. Most Indians have nothing in common linguistically or ethnically with Pakistanis. There is some overlap of language and probably customs/diet between the 2 halves of Punjab. So too, there must be some similarities between Rajasthan/Sindh in the border towns and areas.

I had read a while back that there is actually a Dravidian language spoken in Pakistan by a small community. That surprised me because it kind of defies logic. I forgot the name.