The fall of Kunduz: Should India help Afghanistan militarily?

[That Guy]

Please... you know that is not true. Afghanistan got into the mess for no fault of its own.

Oh really? Are you sure about that? Afghanistan was the only country that refused to accept the birth of Pakistan, it is still the only country in the world that refuses to acknowledge the international border between the two. Afghanistan has, since the beginning, demanded that Pashtunistan be created by taking 40-60% of Pakistani territory, and in the 50s, sent military forces TWICE to invade Pakistan's tribal areas (Afghanistan lost both times). It then created the Baluchistan insurgency with the help of the soviets, and launched military raids within Pakistan during the Soviet Afghan war. Afghanistan has called for the destruction of Pakistan, since the very beginning, calling Pakistan a fake state. To this day, Afghanistan only recognizes Pakistan as a de facto state, not de jure.

"Afghanistan isn't at fault"? The truth is that Afghanistan is the main nation at fault.

 

[rubyjackass]

Oh really? Are you sure about that? Afghanistan was the only country that refused to accept the birth of Pakistan, it is still the only country in the world that refuses to acknowledge the international border between the two. Afghanistan has, since the beginning, demanded that Pashtunistan be created by taking 40-60% of Pakistani territory, and in the 50s, sent military forces TWICE to invade Pakistan's tribal areas (Afghanistan lost both times). It then created the Baluchistan insurgency with the help of the soviets, and launched military raids within Pakistan during the Soviet Afghan war. Afghanistan has called for the destruction of Pakistan, since the very beginning, calling Pakistan a fake state. To this day, Afghanistan only recognizes Pakistan as a de facto state, not de jure.

"Afghanistan isn't at fault"? The truth is that Afghanistan is the main nation at fault.

How did any of Afghanistan's action lead to its current situation, pray tell us? Unless you claim a butterfly effect, none of the above caused Afghanistan to land in the mess it is in today.

 

[A-Team]

Oh really? Are you sure about that? Afghanistan was the only country that refused to accept the birth of Pakistan, it is still the only country in the world that refuses to acknowledge the international border between the two. Afghanistan has, since the beginning, demanded that Pashtunistan be created by taking 40-60% of Pakistani territory, and in the 50s, sent military forces TWICE to invade Pakistan's tribal areas (Afghanistan lost both times). It then created the Baluchistan insurgency with the help of the soviets, and launched military raids within Pakistan during the Soviet Afghan war. Afghanistan has called for the destruction of Pakistan, since the very beginning, calling Pakistan a fake state. To this day, Afghanistan only recognizes Pakistan as a de facto state, not de jure.

"Afghanistan isn't at fault"? The truth is that Afghanistan is the main nation at fault.

Oh the evil Afghanistan, don't you get tired of it? I can list 10 faults of Pakistan, and then you will list 10 more,
where do we go from there?

The issue at hand is that we live in the 2015, not 1950s, not 1947, your country and mine face the menace of terror groups, which kill your people and mine. So do you want to deal with that you want to back 60 years back "Oh these evil Afghans" they didnt recognaize Pakistan so lets be enemies forever, forgetting that we are neighbours and if one is in trouble it effects the other.

 

[That Guy]

How did any of Afghanistan's action lead to its current situation, pray tell us? Unless you claim a butterfly effect, none of the above caused Afghanistan to land in the mess it is in today.

Really? I've already explained how, but if you're such a child that you need me to explain in a bit more detail, here: Afghanistan's refusal to accept Pakistan and the border led to tensions between the two. Afghanistan tries to take the Tribal area twice, and funds separatists in Pakistan, leading to Pakistan closing the border, forcing Afghanistan's economy to it's knees. Afghanistan invites India and the USSR for help, the USSR takes advantage and pushes a communist government in Afghanistan, leading to the US getting involved. The subsequent war destroy's Afghanistan, and warlords take over; the country is (once again) divided on tribal lines. A massive one fifth of Afghanistan's population relocates to Pakistan as refugees. Pakistan's economy loses billions trying to support the refugee crisis. Seeing the taliban making major gains, and desperate to stabilize Afghanistan, Pakistan supports the taliban and very nearly succeeds in bringing stability to the country. Ahmed Shah Masood (in a desperate attempt to reclaim Kabul) invites OBL to Afghanistan to join forces, but OBL is captured by taliban forces as soon as he arrives. OBL joins the taliban, against ASM. 9/11 happens, and the US invades Afghanistan, propping up warlords into the new government. Bush jr threatens Pakistan into joining the war on terror, Pakistan accepts reluctantly, which leads to Pakistan very nearly going backrupt, and causing massive amounts of extremism to rise.

And the rest is pretty much self explanatory.

Oh the evil Afghanistan, don't you get tired of it? I can list 10 faults of Pakistan, and then you will list 10 more,
where do we go from there?

The issue at hand is that we live in the 2015, not 1950s, not 1947, your country and mine face the menace of terror groups, which kill your people and mine. So do you want to deal with that you want to back 60 years back "Oh these evil Afghans" they didnt recognaize Pakistan so lets be enemies forever, forgetting that we are neighbours and if one is in trouble it effects the other.

Oh, I agree to an extent. The thing is, Pakistanis are more than willing to move on, it's the Afghan side that isn't. As soon as Afghanistan recognizes the border between the two, the war will become much easier for Afghanistan to fight. Pakistan has been wanting to build a security wall between the two nations, so as to slow down the flow of militants.

The thing is, Afghanistan refuses to do it for two main reasons:

1. Afghanistan is stuck in the past, and continues to demand Pakistan give up a majority of it's territory to Afghanistan.

2. Afghanistan wants a scapegoat, so as to have some sort of unity among the population. As long as Afghanistan refuses to accept the border, it can continue to claim that there are militant sanctuaries in Pakistan (even after Zarb e Azab). This is despite the fact that Pakistan has over a thousand check posts on the border, many of which come constantly under attack from Afghanistan's side of the border; meanwhile Afghanistan barely has a hundred check posts.


If the border is accepted, and the wall is built, Afghanistan's war will be over pretty quickly.

 

[Mike_Brando]

Is that your Madrassa education coming out? If anything, the Hindus slaughtered and raped in Hindu Kush or Present Day Pakistan .... were.... surprise surprise.... ancestors of you and your countrymen....

Wimps and weaklings got plundered, converted and killed.

Strong willed and most Hindus (like Shivaji or for that matter.... 80% of Indias' population) remained Hindus and never discarded their 1000s years old religion for some foreign arab invaders

PS: Name one Mughal/ Delhi sultanate king who is from present day Sindh, Pak Punjab or NWFP or Balochistan. None. Because your ancestors were Hindus and were the very ones who were raped and killed and converted at the hands of Arabs, Turks, Mongols.

No wonder Pakistan has always saved our a$$es and still today, we are proudly Hindus.

@SarthakGanguly @Mike_Brando @ranjeet

Yup,i totally concur with what @SarthakGanguly has said in this matter although i would personally take this statement with a bucket load of salt

 

[Maarkhoor]

Article on DNA here, excerpts below:

This is good news for India, which has been for long stuck between the debate as whether to supply Kabul with weapons it has requested Delhi for or not. Afghan Defence Minister Mohammed Masoon Stanekazi recently said, while confirming that Kabul has “no doubts” the Taliban leadership resides in Pakistan, that the country requires weapons on an immediate basis and that where they come from is not the question, but who can provide them the fastest. India usually comes up as a practical answer to these problems for Kabul, however Delhi even under Prime Minister Narendra Modi has chosen to remain non-committal.

India perhaps can validly argue that it has good reasons for not arming Afghanistan. The last thing Delhi would want is ‘Made in India’ military hardware to fall in the wrong hands in Afghanistan. Second, it could damage the country’s reputation as a donor and aid provider amongst the Afghan people. However, despite such concerns, Delhi should find itself capable and confident enough to provide Afghanistan with non-lethal military aid much more proactively. A failed Afghanistan could be a huge headache for India as far as its national security is concerned, and such a failure should be seen as an unacceptable outcome irrespective of who is in power, both in Kabul and New Delhi.

Last time they help Sri Lanka resulting in killing inncocent civilians and a civil war lasting nearly two decades Afghanistan should think twice to call India for help.

 

[rubyjackass]

Really? I've already explained how, but if you're such a child that you need me to explain in a bit more detail, here: Afghanistan's refusal to accept Pakistan and the border led to tensions between the two. Afghanistan tries to take the Tribal area twice, and funds separatists in Pakistan, leading to Pakistan closing the border, forcing Afghanistan's economy to it's knees. Afghanistan invites India and the USSR for help, the USSR takes advantage and pushes a communist government in Afghanistan, leading to the US getting involved. The subsequent war destroy's Afghanistan, and warlords take over; the country is (once again) divided on tribal lines. A massive one fifth of Afghanistan's population relocates to Pakistan as refugees. Pakistan's economy loses billions trying to support the refugee crisis. Seeing the taliban making major gains, and desperate to stabilize Afghanistan, Pakistan supports the taliban and very nearly succeeds in bringing stability to the country. Ahmed Shah Masood (in a desperate attempt to reclaim Kabul) invites OBL to Afghanistan to join forces, but OBL is captured by taliban forces as soon as he arrives. OBL joins the taliban, against ASM. 9/11 happens, and the US invades Afghanistan, propping up warlords into the new government. Bush jr threatens Pakistan into joining the war on terror, Pakistan accepts reluctantly, which leads to Pakistan very nearly going backrupt, and causing massive amounts of extremism to rise.

And the rest is pretty much self explanatory.

Thanks for the chain of events.
But USSR was going to spread communism in Afghanistan anyway just like US is spreading democracy today. And Pakistan was dealing with Afghanistan problem for a long time. The border closing incident happened at least a decade if not more before the Soviets walked into Afghanistan. And the Soviets left too, leaving Afghanistan under its native ruler for almost 3 years. Afghanistan was just getting by in those years. Yet Pakistan had to push Taliban on them. If you say this is to make sure there is no Pashtunistan movement, I would say Pakistan already reaped the benefits(not) of the plan, with its own versions of Taliban. And btw Massoud did not bring Laden to Afghanistan. He refused shelter to OBL but only because of strategic considerations.

Getting refugees is a natural fallout of creating a war against neighboring country. You plan a war, you deal with its fallout. Pakistani planners should have repatriated refugees in an orderly manner. There was a big window of opportunity during the stable years of Taliban rule.

Besides the strategic depth theory has been accepted by Pakistani generals for some time now. Especially by generals of that time.

 

[pakdefender]

India should supply Dhruv helicopters to Afghanistan

 

[TMA]

Really? I've already explained how, but if you're such a child that you need me to explain in a bit more detail, here: Afghanistan's refusal to accept Pakistan and the border led to tensions between the two. Afghanistan tries to take the Tribal area twice, and funds separatists in Pakistan, leading to Pakistan closing the border, forcing Afghanistan's economy to it's knees. Afghanistan invites India and the USSR for help, the USSR takes advantage and pushes a communist government in Afghanistan, leading to the US getting involved. The subsequent war destroy's Afghanistan, and warlords take over; the country is (once again) divided on tribal lines. A massive one fifth of Afghanistan's population relocates to Pakistan as refugees. Pakistan's economy loses billions trying to support the refugee crisis. Seeing the taliban making major gains, and desperate to stabilize Afghanistan, Pakistan supports the taliban and very nearly succeeds in bringing stability to the country. Ahmed Shah Masood (in a desperate attempt to reclaim Kabul) invites OBL to Afghanistan to join forces, but OBL is captured by taliban forces as soon as he arrives. OBL joins the taliban, against ASM. 9/11 happens, and the US invades Afghanistan, propping up warlords into the new government. Bush jr threatens Pakistan into joining the war on terror, Pakistan accepts reluctantly, which leads to Pakistan very nearly going backrupt, and causing massive amounts of extremism to rise.

And the rest is pretty much self explanatory.


Oh, I agree to an extent. The thing is, Pakistanis are more than willing to move on, it's the Afghan side that isn't. As soon as Afghanistan recognizes the border between the two, the war will become much easier for Afghanistan to fight. Pakistan has been wanting to build a security wall between the two nations, so as to slow down the flow of militants.

The thing is, Afghanistan refuses to do it for two main reasons:

1. Afghanistan is stuck in the past, and continues to demand Pakistan give up a majority of it's territory to Afghanistan.

2. Afghanistan wants a scapegoat, so as to have some sort of unity among the population. As long as Afghanistan refuses to accept the border, it can continue to claim that there are militant sanctuaries in Pakistan (even after Zarb e Azab). This is despite the fact that Pakistan has over a thousand check posts on the border, many of which come constantly under attack from Afghanistan's side of the border; meanwhile Afghanistan barely has a hundred check posts.


If the border is accepted, and the wall is built, Afghanistan's war will be over pretty quickly.

Yes I am also coming to this line of thinking that whilst Pakistan is far from perfect, Afghanistan must recognize the decision of the Pashtoons on the Eastern side of the Durand line to be with Pakistan. Perhaps Afghanistan feels this to be an insult that Pashtoons did this??

 

[I S I]

Phat ke haath main aajani hai India ki ye sun ke.

 

[Donald Trump]

A failed Afghanistan could be a huge headache for India as far as its national security is concerned, and such a failure should be seen as an unacceptable outcome irrespective of who is in power, both in Kabul and New Delhi.

How so? An unstable Afghanistan would be a headache for Pakistan, not India!

 

[SarthakGanguly]

How so? An unstable Afghanistan would be a headache for Pakistan, not India!

Not really. A Taliban takeover in Kabul and return of the Salafi raj will be the best thing to happen to Pakistan.

 

[That Guy]

Thanks for the chain of events.
But USSR was going to spread communism in Afghanistan anyway just like US is spreading democracy today.

Which changes nothing.

And Pakistan was dealing with Afghanistan problem for a long time. The border closing incident happened at least a decade if not more before the Soviets walked into Afghanistan. And the Soviets left too, leaving Afghanistan under its native ruler for almost 3 years.

They were forced out.

Afghanistan was just getting by in those years. Yet Pakistan had to push Taliban on them.

That is a complete and utter lie. You, sir, are a liar. Afghanistan wasn't getting by, it was in the middle of a civil war.

Civil war in Afghanistan (1989–92) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Civil war in Afghanistan (1992–96) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
War in Afghanistan (1978–present) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Either you're a liar, or you have no idea what you're talking about.

If you say this is to make sure there is no Pashtunistan movement, I would say Pakistan already reaped the benefits(not) of the plan, with its own versions of Taliban. And btw Massoud did not bring Laden to Afghanistan. He refused shelter to OBL but only because of strategic considerations.

Again, a complete and utter lie. Massood invited OBL to fight the taliban, and establish their own version of an Islamic state. Unless you can prove otherwise, which you can't, this is fact.

The Pashtunistan movement died a long time ago, but that doesn't mean Afghanistan's government has changed it's opinion. It still does not de jure recognize Pakistan.

Getting refugees is a natural fallout of creating a war against neighboring country. You plan a war, you deal with its fallout. Pakistani planners should have repatriated refugees in an orderly manner. There was a big window of opportunity during the stable years of Taliban rule.

Pakistan didn't invite the soviets into Afghanistan, which created the refugees in the first place. Again, you're either a liar, or just plain ignorant. The only reason why Pakistan didn't repatriate the refugees was due to international pressure. Pakistan is finally telling the UN to **** off, and repatriating them.

Pakistanis have had enough of Afghanistan.

Besides the strategic depth theory has been accepted by Pakistani generals for some time now. Especially by generals of that time.

It wouldn't exist, if India minded its own business, and didn't take every opportunity to fan violence in Pakistan.

 

[rubyjackass]

That is a complete and utter lie. You, sir, are a liar. Afghanistan wasn't getting by, it was in the middle of a civil war.

Civil war in Afghanistan (1989–92) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Civil war in Afghanistan (1992–96) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
War in Afghanistan (1978–present) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Either you're a liar, or you have no idea what you're talking about.

And you are a *****(I called you a five letter non-expletive then toned it down). When I meant Afghanistan was just getting by, I meant they were not interfering in Pakistan(something in the sense of eking out a living). Disprove that.

Again, a complete and utter lie. Massood invited OBL to fight the taliban, and establish their own version of an Islamic state. Unless you can prove otherwise, which you can't, this is fact.

You should prove your claim that Massood invited OBL. It was your claim which you pulled out of nowhere. Massood's may not be a liberal by our standards, but in Afghanistan he would be called one. Which history book did you pick this up from, that Massoud wanted a Saudi Wahabi Afghanistan which is what OBL wanted?

Pakistan didn't invite the soviets into Afghanistan, which created the refugees in the first place. Again, you're either a liar, or just plain ignorant. The only reason why Pakistan didn't repatriate the refugees was due to international pressure. Pakistan is finally telling the UN to **** off, and repatriating them.

I agreed with you when I said, USSR would have come into Afghanistan anyway.

You are showing unnecessary machoism to avoid the point of contention between us. Which is my claim that Afghanistan stopped being a threat to Pakistan since early 1960s. It had no control over its history starting 1970s. Pakistan started its intervention to seat Taliban in Afghanistan in 1990s, at which point in time Afghanistan was for long not a threat to Pakistan. You own wiki links will say that.

So when you say Afghanistan got what it deserved because of its Pashtunistan stance is a white lie.

 

[MilSpec]

We are going to decommission our Mig series anyway .So just upgrade that and should give it to the ANA and also those MI 35 after the induction of LCH.Mig21 Bison is so familiar to Afghanis and would be enough to bomb Taliban.
But no boots.We dont have that kind of resource.

No life left on those brother.
Instead, the better option would be to provide Military aid and let Afghan forces decide what they want to buy, which could range from Mi35, super tucanos, or even the surplus SU25.
India can support with field hospitals, medical training, military transport, engineering vehicles, and most importantly Monetary Aid to ensure security agencies in Afghanistan have the necessary infrastructure to sustain the Taliban's Onslaught.