The fall of Kunduz: Should India help Afghanistan militarily?

[Rasengan]

And you are a *****(I called you a five letter non-expletive then toned it down). When I meant Afghanistan was just getting by, I meant they were not interfering in Pakistan(something in the sense of eking out a living). Disprove that.

Afghanistan was never in the position to interfere in Pakistan once the military coup took place in 1978, because the Soviet invasion occurred in the following year and the country has constantly faced the outbreak of civil war. However no political entity in Kabul has ever recognized the durand line and in the current climate of Afghanistan most of the politicians from the Northern Alliance faction have clearly stated their objectives towards this issue. Amrullah Selah on record has articulated the conjecture that the durand line does not exists and this opinion was voice by Hamid Karzai. Once Afghanistan is stronger both economically and militarily, then they will most definitely interfere in the tribal regions of Pakistan. Henceforth, Pakistan follows the doctrine of Sun Tzu which is based on the idea of keeping an area unstable by initiating the policy of divide and rule. Players on the chess board are forced to fight each other and the residual piece is too weak to poise any real threat. Kabul will continuously burn for another 100 years until the attitude and political aspirations of Afghans is kept in check. However this issue will become irrelevant since the Haqqani network is capturing districts and the demoralization in the ANSF is made transparent, when 4000 solders are deserting each month and the city of Kunduz fell into the hands of the Taliban.

 

[That Guy]

And you are a *****(I called you a five letter non-expletive then toned it down). When I meant Afghanistan was just getting by, I meant they were not interfering in Pakistan(something in the sense of eking out a living). Disprove that.

I don't give a shit what you call me, go ahead, call me a bitch. Fact are fact, and they won't change just because you're in denial of the truth.

Getting by does NOT mean "not interfering" in another nation. Getting by means exactly what it says, getting by. When I say that I'm getting by, it means that I am making a living, no matter how small it may be, not that I'm not interfering in my neighbor's house.

Even by your definition, the fact that the civil war continued to push millions of refugees into Pakistan, it still affected Pakistan. Even by YOUR definition, Pakistan was completely in the right.

Not only are you a liar, you're intellectually dishonest.

You should prove your claim that Massood invited OBL. It was your claim which you pulled out of nowhere. Massood's may not be a liberal by our standards, but in Afghanistan he would be called one. Which history book did you pick this up from, that Massoud wanted a Saudi Wahabi Afghanistan which is what OBL wanted?

This is all common fucking knowledge, google it. I'm not going to do all your homework for you. I gave you links before, because you were too lazy to go research yourself.

I agreed with you when I said, USSR would have come into Afghanistan anyway.

Which (again) changes nothing.

You are showing unnecessary machoism to avoid the point of contention between us. Which is my claim that Afghanistan stopped being a threat to Pakistan since early 1960s. It had no control over its history starting 1970s. Pakistan started its intervention to seat Taliban in Afghanistan in 1990s, at which point in time Afghanistan was for long not a threat to Pakistan. You own wiki links will say that.

That is not your claim, and even if it was your claim, it is completely false. Your claim was that Afghanistan was never at fault. Your fucking quote....

Please... you know that is not true. Afghanistan got into the mess for no fault of its own.

Also, Afghanistan has been a threat to Pakistan from the beginning. The nature of the threat may have changed, but it still is a threat. As long as Afghanistan continues to antagonize Pakistan, and support terrorists that target Pakistan (which it continues to do, through the NDS), it will remain a threat. As long as Afghan refugees remain in Pakistan, Afghanistan will always remain a security threat to Pakistan.

If you want to lie, at least make it sound believable. You may be able to bullshit your choir, but you can't bullshit me.

By the way, you clearly haven't even read the links.

So when you say Afghanistan got what it deserved because of its Pashtunistan stance is a white lie.

I said that Afghanistan is at fault for its own mess, not the same thing. Every action has a consequence, Afghanistan still doesn't seem to understand this basic concept.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm done here.

 

[rubyjackass]

I don't give a shit what you call me, go ahead, call me a bitch. Fact are fact, and they won't change just because you're in denial of the truth.

Lol. You just called yourself a bitch. I clearly said the word I used was not an expletive.

Getting by does NOT mean "not interfering" in another nation. Getting by means exactly what it says, getting by. When I say that I'm getting by, it means that I am making a living, no matter how small it may be, not that I'm not interfering in my neighbor's house.

When you are just getting by, you won't have the time or resources to interfere in other's affairs. That is what I meant.

Even by your definition, the fact that the civil war continued to push millions of refugees into Pakistan, it still affected Pakistan. Even by YOUR definition, Pakistan was completely in the right.

Not only are you a liar, you're intellectually dishonest.

Pfft... Learn to understand colloquial language. Afghanistan is today in the position because of outsiders, not because of its own faults. I say it again and with good reason. Your claim that today's Afghanistan is a natural result of its 1960s actions against Pakistan is BS. Pakistan installed Taliban in Afghanistan because it wanted strategic depth. This was said in as many words by the Generals of that time. If you are claiming refugees are the reason Pak pushed Taliban into Afghanistan, then why couldn't Pak get their benefactors to take back refugees?

This is all common fucking knowledge, google it. I'm not going to do all your homework for you. I gave you links before, because you were too lazy to go research yourself.

I did now, and a hundred times earlier when I read about Massoud. Nowhere did it say he was the one who got OBL and/or hosted him in Afghanistan.

That is not your claim, and even if it was your claim, it is completely false. Your claim was that Afghanistan was never at fault. Your fucking quote....

Again Afghanistan is not at fault for its current state. Nothing wrong with that. You are the one who seem to be claiming that its 1960 incursion into Pakistan's Pashtun areas is the reason for it's current state. I already called that a butterfly effect.

Also, Afghanistan has been a threat to Pakistan from the beginning. The nature of the threat may have changed, but it still is a threat. As long as Afghanistan continues to antagonize Pakistan, and support terrorists that target Pakistan (which it continues to do, through the NDS), it will remain a threat. As long as Afghan refugees remain in Pakistan, Afghanistan will always remain a security threat to Pakistan.

If by the beginnin, you mean Babur's times you are still right. Afghanistan was never a threat to Pakistan so much as to make it a proxy. That was just opportunism of your planners. Your refugee alibi is laughable. The Russians vacated Afghanistan by 1990. Please reserve some blame for your planners who kept hosting Afghans and used a few of these very Afghans.

If you want to lie, at least make it sound believable. You may be able to bullshit your choir, but you can't bullshit me.

You are full of $h!t yourself.

By the way, you clearly haven't even read the links.


I said that Afghanistan is at fault for its own mess, not the same thing. Every action has a consequence, Afghanistan still doesn't seem to understand this basic concept.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm done here.

Sure. Afghan incursions in 1960 -> today's war. Butterfly flapped its wings in 1960 -> Afghanistan is at war today. There goes your logic.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Afghanistan was never in the position to interfere in Pakistan once the military coup took place in 1978, because the Soviet invasion occurred in the following year and the country has constantly faced the outbreak of civil war.

That is what I meant. Afghanistan did not have control of their own country for a long time. Ergo, they did not deserve this war. It was imposed on them.You seem to disagree with this on grounds that Afghanistan does not recognize Durand Line.

However no political entity in Kabul has ever recognized the durand line and in the current climate of Afghanistan most of the politicians from the Northern Alliance faction have clearly stated their objectives towards this issue. Amrullah Selah on record has articulated the conjecture that the durand line does not exists and this opinion was voice by Hamid Karzai. Once Afghanistan is stronger both economically and militarily, then they will most definitely interfere in the tribal regions of Pakistan. Henceforth, Pakistan follows the doctrine of Sun Tzu which is based on the idea of keeping an area unstable by initiating the policy of divide and rule. Players on the chess board are forced to fight each other and the residual piece is too weak to poise any real threat. Kabul will continuously burn for another 100 years until the attitude and political aspirations of Afghans is kept in check. However this issue will become irrelevant since the Haqqani network is capturing districts and the demoralization in the ANSF is made transparent, when 4000 solders are deserting each month and the city of Kunduz fell into the hands of the Taliban.

This is old news about Pakistan's intentions in Afghanistan. But there is a degree of stupidity involved. The ethnicities of Afghanistan that Pakistan targets are most suspicious of any integration of Pashtun areas into Afghanistan. Pashtuns who apparently they support(Pashtuns whose case Pakistan continually raises, when they try to hyphenate Taliban with Pashtuns) are the most ardent fans of erasing Durand Line. We will see what future will hold for such a strategy.

 

[Rasengan]

That is what I meant. Afghanistan did not have control of their own country for a long time. Ergo, they did not deserve this war. It was imposed on them.You seem to disagree with this on grounds that Afghanistan does not recognize Durand Line.

History provides an imperative analysis to the general audience to understand the concept on how the doctrine of divide and rule to wane in the power of your adversary maintains the security needs of a nation. Successive Chinese dynasties were experts in keeping the Mongols at bay, because bribing rival tribes to invade each other was a tactic to keep the enemy preoccupied and this worked for centuries until the rise of Genghis Khan who was not initiated regarded as a threat by Western Xia and Jin. Therefore in the realms of realism philosophy nation states often pursue policies not on the count of morality, however for strategic interests in protection for the greater good of their own community. None of the players in the civil war chessboard can be described as benevolent and progressive in nature for the betterment of Afghanistan. Pakistan chose to side with factions who were indigenous to Afghanistan, however more significantly there desire to maintain a political relationship based upon trust was much stronger than the opposing side. Therefore, its only nature to assume the idea that the political establishment of Pakistan would align itself with the Haqqani network and the Taliban. None of the players in the chessboard are angels, since every single one of the them contains blood in their hands, however on a practical level we selected factions who least caused trouble for Pakistan. The current Government of Afghanistan is losing to the Taliban as Helmand is about to fall from their grasp. Approximately 4000 solders from the Afghan National Security Force are deserting each month and the casualty rate is rising. The civil war was never imposed by the Pakistani establishment, in fact General Dostum who has now become the Vice President of Afghanistan was the person who collapsed the Najibullah Government with the siege of Kabul in 1992. The state craft machinery of a country does not concern itself with the question on whether a group of people deserved the imposition of war, since the political apparatus must secure its own survival in a murky world.