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The Elusive Inexpensive F-16 Clone

S_O_C_O_M

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The Elusive Inexpensive F-16 Clone

December 29, 2010

As expected, China is now offering its new J-10 jet fighter for export. The price is $27 million, which is less than half what a new F-16 costs, but still more than the Chinese JF-17, which goes for $15 million. But there are still hundreds of used F-16s available, for under $15 million each. While the U.S. still has about 1,300 F-16s in service (about half with reserve units), over 4,200 were produced, and America has hundreds in storage. The end of the Cold War in 1991 led to a sharp cut in U.S. Air Force fighter squadrons. Moreover, the new F-35 will be replacing all U.S. F-16s in the next decade. So the U.S. will continue to have plenty of little-used F-16s sitting around, and these remain a cheaper and more effective aircraft than the J-10 or JF-17. But if a country cannot buy F-16s (because of embargos, or similar problems), J-10s or JF-17s would provide a respectable, if more expensive, substitute.

F-16s are still produced for export, and these cost as much as $70 million each (the F-16I for Israel). Some nations, like South Korea, build the F-16 under license. A used F-16C, built in the 1990s, would go for about $10 million on the open market. The 16 ton F-16 has an admirable combat record, and is very popular with pilots. It has been successful at ground support as well. When equipped with 4-6 smart bombs, it is a very effective bomber.

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that would be comparable to the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine.

The Chinese made JF-17 (also known as FC-1) is exported to Pakistan, and are being offered to Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Burma, Iran and Sri Lanka as inexpensive alternatives to American and Russian fighters. Hundreds of JF-17s are also going to be built in Pakistan, mainly using Chinese parts.

Last year, Pakistan signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China
(which calls the aircraft the FC-1).

When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan three years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had.

The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Originally, Pakistan wanted Western electronics in the JF-17, but because of the risk of Chinese technology theft, and pressure from the United States (who did not want China to steal more Western aviation electronics). Thus the JF-17 uses Chinese electronics.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter. Meanwhile, Pakistan has one squadron in service, and another being formed.

Warplanes: The Elusive Inexpensive F-16 Clone
 
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One tires correcting errors... this article is riddled with them.

Everyone seems to be getting really concerned about the export competition they will be getting from the JF-17 and J-10. Fair enough.
 
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Its better to have a plane that can be enhanced, and comes with no sanction

Freedom to customize is wonderful option

F16 only offer , a plane that is a open book

J17 and J10B is a new plane , with unknown capabilities and unlimited potentional with weapons upgrade and its weapon's system are more recent :pakistan::china:
 
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IMO opinion, cheapest option available to Pakistan should be to purchase a couple of hundred F-16/A/B used examples currently mothballed in the US. These should be available for a song and as a non Nato ally, Pakistan is in a position to purchase surplus US miliatry equipment.

We should purchase about one hundred additional MLU kits. Set up a rebuild factory and perform the MLU & structural update in Pakistan. Cannibalize the remaining one hundred F-16’s for spare parts.

Aviation industry in Pakistan is still in embryonic stage and we are yet not in a position to overhaul the PW F100 engine used in Block 15 aircraft. Thus we would still need to send the engine to the USA for refurbishment and consequently be subject to US sanctions. Otherwise once the aircraft and MLU kits are in Pakistan, sanctions become meaningleess.

Nevertheless, this option should be seriously looked into as it would provide a first rate multi-role aircraft to PAF in large numbers for about $10 to 15-million each depending upon the avionics package. A mix of JF-17, F-16 & J10B’s in sufficient numbers would meet all PAF needs until 2030 except for the stealth aircraft.

We are still using A-5’s, Mirage -3’s and F-7’s. Don’t you think that MLU F-16 can serve PAF for the next 20 years or so?
 
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IMO opinion, cheapest option available to Pakistan should be to purchase a couple of hundred F-16/A/B used examples currently mothballed in the US. These should be available for a song and as a non Nato ally, Pakistan is in a position to purchase surplus US miliatry equipment.

We should purchase about one hundred additional MLU kits. Set up a rebuild factory and perform the MLU & structural update in Pakistan. Cannibalize the remaining one hundred F-16’s for spare parts.

Aviation industry in Pakistan is still in embryonic stage and we are yet not in a position to overhaul the PW F100 engine used in Block 15 aircraft. Thus we would still need to send the engine to the USA for refurbishment and consequently be subject to US sanctions. Otherwise once the aircraft and MLU kits are in Pakistan, sanctions become meaningleess.

Nevertheless, this option should be seriously looked into as it would provide a first rate multi-role aircraft to PAF in large numbers for about $10 to 15-million each depending upon the avionics package. A mix of JF-17, F-16 & J10B’s in sufficient numbers would meet all PAF needs until 2030 except for the stealth aircraft.

We are still using A-5’s, Mirage -3’s and F-7’s. Don’t you think that MLU F-16 can serve PAF for the next 20 years or so?

Agreed that this seems as a very economical option for Pakistan but recently we had a thread in which defence minister objected to the fact that US increased the prices of second hand F-16s. Secondly, though I am in no doubts about the capability of MLU F-16s but if FC-20 offer more than F-16s (i.e. ToPT), then eventhough more expensive, PAF should go ahead with FC-20/JFT combo rather than enhancing Falcon fleet as Pakistan will not be getting them with even with ToT let alone ToPT. So though Pakistan's aviation industry will certainly benifit from localization of MLU and STAR programs but potential benifits of FC-20 program will certainly outweigh.
 
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Niaz,

That is good thinking. Nothing beats a battlefield proven weapons system---we already have an infra structure to maintain and fly this aircraft---the higher the numbers that we have---easier it will be to operate.

Secondly---with an upgraded radar / electronics package and aim 120----the air power balance in the sub continent would greatly shift towards neutral within a very short time----there is no issue of integration of this aircraft into the air force---there are no worries of growing pains---.

The Jf 17 and the J 10/FC20 will be going through their growing periods and the air force will have to overcome many a hurdles before these planes take charge.
 
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S_O_C_O_M said:
As expected, China is now offering its new J-10 jet fighter for export.

When did China allow J-10 for export purposes (countries other than Pak) ? AFAIK only JF-17 is allowed
 
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We are still using A-5’s, Mirage -3’s and F-7’s. Don’t you think that MLU F-16 can serve PAF for the next 20 years or so?

I guess we should not go all the time for the cheapest option.We should follow the quality as well.
we should pay the price to get freedom from any power in the world.
We should be in such a position to make US follow us and not we follow them..
Our neighbors are going for the stealth technology and we r thinking for the Junk and old tech F-16'nz...we should stop acting as a slave mind...we should start thinking as masters too..:cheesy:
Any wayz thnks for urz nice points in the article...:coffee:
 
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Hi, the US specifically did not allow the PAF and Kamra to get technology to upgrade/MLU F-16s for the fear it might be passed on to China. That is why Turkey was selected to upgrade the PAF F-16s.

Yes, I agree the F-16 is a time tested platform, but it is still sanction prone and makes the PAF reliant on the West for spares. Take care.
 
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Agreed that this seems as a very economical option for Pakistan but recently we had a thread in which defence minister objected to the fact that US increased the prices of second hand F-16s. Secondly, though I am in no doubts about the capability of MLU F-16s but if FC-20 offer more than F-16s (i.e. ToPT), then eventhough more expensive, PAF should go ahead with FC-20/JFT combo rather than enhancing Falcon fleet as Pakistan will not be getting them with even with ToT let alone ToPT. So though Pakistan's aviation industry will certainly benifit from localization of MLU and STAR programs but potential benifits of FC-20 program will certainly outweigh.

Do US have a say on the prices of second hand F-16s of other nations? I believe not.

If you get MLU kits from US, off course they can fix the price of the same.
 
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Do US have a say on the prices of second hand F-16s of other nations? I believe not.

If you get MLU kits from US, off course they can fix the price of the same.

I am talking about USAF EDAs, but US do have a say on resale of F-16s of other nations as any falcon customer can not modify,upgrade or resell falcons under its use to anyother country without the permission of US DoD
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niaz View Post

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We are still using A-5’s, Mirage -3’s and F-7’s. Don’t you think that MLU F-16 can serve PAF for the next 20 years or so?


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I guess we should not go all the time for the cheapest option.We should follow the quality as well.
we should pay the price to get freedom from any power in the world.
We should be in such a position to make US follow us and not we follow them..

Our neighbors are going for the stealth technology and we r thinking for the Junk and old tech F-16'nz...we should stop acting as a slave mind...we should start thinking as masters too..
Any wayz thnks for urz nice points in the article...

F16 at any point of time better than Lavis (A B or C)
You can negotiate better on F16. If USA decommission F16, it can give the Manufacturing license and ToT to Pakistan as well.
LAVI (J10) will need decades to match the F16 IN (Block 60+) standards..

USA will follow you.. That will never happen...
 
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Things are not so simple guys.

First of all, not all F16s are the same, even within the same block of production.

installing common cockpit and some other common elements, does not mean that the planes become identical.

engines and engine management are different
performance is different depending on engine
tools maintenance, tool collection expendables and training for different parts
pilot training is different for different capabilities of different F16s
Not all planes will carry the same mission equipment etc

all these can increase the indirect cost of a plane that at the end of the day is not new, and has structural fatigue as well
 
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