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Talks with no outcome

Bang Galore

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Dr Maleeha Lodhi (Perspective) / 5 December 2013

Endlessly talking about talks is a recipe for frustration

THE RECENT diplomatic exchanges between Pakistan and India are akin to being on a treadmill: Plenty of activity and movement going nowhere. There has been a series of informal, high-level interactions last month on the sidelines of multilateral conferences — an Asia Europe meeting (ASEM) in Delhi and the Commonwealth Summit in Colombo. But the discussions have yielded no outcome.

This has left formal dialogue in pause mode and normalisation efforts at a standstill. India has ruled out resumption of the broad-based peace dialogue, despite repeated urgings by Pakistani officials — most recently by Pakistani foreign affairs adviser Sartaj Aziz during his mid-November visit to Delhi. Instead, Indian officials have alternated between setting conditions for reviving formal talks and narrowing the bandwidth for dialogue by cherry-picking issues.

The impasse over renewing composite dialogue is likely to persist until at least India’s general elections, due by May 2014. But it raises questions about Delhi’s post-election stance and the strategy that might be adopted to deal with Pakistan.

In mid-October India’s External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid reiterated that Delhi would not quickly return to the composite dialogue process. That has been apparent in spite of Islamabad’s efforts to accelerate the normalisation process since Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif assumed office. Sharif’s September 29 meeting with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in New York ended with the Indian side making “improvement of the situation” on the Line of Control (LoC) a precondition for “forward movement” in relations.

Although LoC tensions have largely subsided (much fewer ceasefire violations in November compared to earlier months), the Indian posture on resuming formal talks has remained unchanged. This became apparent from various Indo-Pakistan encounters in November — Aziz’s meeting on November 12 with Khurshid, national security adviser Shivshankar Menon, and later Singh as well as Sharif’s brief November 16 meeting with Khurshid in Colombo.

Enough is known about these meetings to draw three conclusions. One, that the Indian side has shown no interest to resume formal dialogue. Whether this posture is a function of election politics or indicates how India wants to conduct future business with Pakistan will become clearer after the elections.

Two, in almost every encounter, the Indian side seemed to set conditions — even if they were not called that — for returning to the full-fledged talks process. Whether it was establishing “tranquility on the LoC” or “concretely” concluding the Mumbai trial, goal posts were laid out.

And three, in several of these meetings Indian officials signalled that while they might be willing to engage on some issues (trade, terrorism), on others of high priority for Islamabad (Kashmir, Siachen, Sir Creek, water), they were less forthcoming. This suggested a selective engagement approach to dialogue; and even this seemed predicated on Pakistan fulfilling prior conditions.

In consequence no dates for meetings between the two countries have been set for the coming months.

While these are all process issues, on substance, there was a revealing exchange between Aziz and Singh during his call on him on November 13. When Aziz suggested that Siachen and Sir Creek were two “doable” issues amenable to resolution, Singh replied that as Siachen had been affected by the Kargil experience it could now be addressed only as part of an overall settlement of Jammu and Kashmir. This further reinforced Islamabad’s impression, fuelled by the last two rounds of talks on the issue, of a hardening in Delhi’s position. On Sir Creek, Singh did not respond.

From the perspective of a long troubled relationship, that these diplomatic encounters took place at all is helpful to lower tensions between the two countries and improving the tone of relations. But diplomatic activity must also produce movement. To endlessly be talking about talks is a recipe for frustration and not progress.

The resurrection of a comprehensive peace process remains the best and most viable vehicle to manage differences and build on areas of convergence.

Dr Maleeha Lodhi served as Pakistan’s ambassador to the US and United Kingdom

Talks with no outcome - Khaleej Times
 
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No real talks will take place till the General elections are over - when Pakistan went to elections the Indian side did not emphasize on any talks either, that normally is the non declared policy. So Nawaz Sharif pumping himself up for any meaningful dialogues must hold his horses till after the elections are through if he has some common sense.
 
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When Aziz suggested that Siachen and Sir Creek were two “doable” issues amenable to resolution, Singh replied that as Siachen had been affected by the Kargil experience it could now be addressed only as part of an overall settlement of Jammu and Kashmir.

This is pretty much the most important thing in the article. That Siachen is simply a no-go area and is not open for negotiations.
 
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This is pretty much the most important thing in the article. That Siachen is simply a no-go area and is not open for negotiations.
It is, provided PA agrees to a mutually authenticated LoC in Siachen backed by GPS and monitoring mechanisms.

Though frankly, i prefer having the IA sit there rather than come down despite any ground authentication.
 
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It is, provided PA agrees to a mutually authenticated LoC in Siachen backed by GPS and monitoring mechanisms.

Though frankly, i prefer having the IA sit there rather than come down despite any ground authentication.

Actually it isn't. The Pakistanis will never agree to any such move especially because it will show up the lie that they have been feeding their people about being on Siachen. The Indian PM has now linked it with an overall settlement of Kashmir. That pretty much rules out a solution before then.
 
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Talks should be continued even though there are very minute results, having a dialogue is better than no dialogue at all.
 
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Actually it isn't. The Pakistanis will never agree to any such move especially because it will show up the lie that they have been feeding their people about being on Siachen. The Indian PM has now linked it with an overall settlement of Kashmir. That pretty much rules out a solution before then.
Okay.
Either ways, it wasnt going to be done. PA was not going to agree to it and now as you say GoI has ruled out independent deals.

btw You can start the new thread on the topic we were discussing earlier.
 
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It is, provided PA agrees to a mutually authenticated LoC in Siachen backed by GPS and monitoring mechanisms.

Though frankly, i prefer having the IA sit there rather than come down despite any ground authentication.

well the point of contention @ siachen is in the interpretation of the line beyond NJ9842 (hence northwards)
Pakistan's interprets it as going north east touching Karakorum pass (which I agree is a bit irrational) while Indians one is the present actual ground position line which @ present goes north west ending @ indra coli (which again is not fair either) after all two wrongs don't make a right
so bro, how about something like agreeing to the line going in the middle of both the claims even with this India's will get to keep the bigger area plus you also get keep the the Karakorum pass thus addressing your threat of sino-pak angle point , but for us @ least something is better then nothing @ present you control all of it, come on yaar be a bit rational
how about the line NJ9842 going from the middle instead of both our extreme point's of north west & north east which is basically a 40/60 & you get to keep the 60% of it
@ least agree to this
 
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well the point of contention @ siachen is in the interpretation of the line beyond NJ9842 (hence northwards)
Pakistan's interprets it as going north east touching Karakorum pass (which I agree is a bit irrational) while Indians one is the present actual ground position line which @ present goes north west ending @ indra coli (which again is not fair either) after all two wrongs don't make a right
so bro, how about something like agreeing to the line going in the middle of both the claims even with this India's will get to keep the bigger area plus you also get keep the the Karakorum pass thus addressing your threat of sino-pak angle point , but for us @ least something is better then nothing @ present you control all of it, come on yaar be a bit rational
how about the line NJ9842 going from the middle instead of both our extreme point's of north west & north east which is basically a 40/60 & you get to keep the 60% of it
@ least agree to this
Mate the question here is not whether fair or unfair.
The question is what benefit does India get by being fair with Pakistan?

While being fair -or even generous - with neutral countries like Bangladesh/Myanmar/Nepal/Bhutan makes sense - India's border agreement with BD(yet to be ratified by Indian Parliament) gives an extra 10,000 acres to BD.

But when considering a country like Pakistan that does not honour treaties and is constantly a pain in the neck, why should India play fair when we have taken that land by treasure and blood? Tomorrow if we let PA on top of Siachen(I hope you know that currently they are not actually on the glacier as opposed to what they let common people in Pakistan think) PA could just conduct a coup in Isloo and then revoke the treaty and start attacking ? Or maybe one of those countless 'khans' starts a dharna forcing the govt/army to start attacking.

With Pakistan, treaties and agreements are practically worthless.
 
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There PM is predicting a 4th war with India so why India is wasting time on such bullshit talks.

Iam happy that India is neglecting Pakistani offers.

Anyhow elections are coming so it is all eyewash.
 
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@Bang Galore The name of the thread is a bit misleading. For a while before I opened it, I thought this referred to the discussions that take place on PDF.:lol:
 
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Though frankly, i prefer having the IA sit there rather than come down despite any ground authentication


On an average, defence experts say, one Pakistani soldier is killed every third day on the Siachen Glacier, showing approximately 100 casualties every year on an average. Similarly, one Indian soldier is killed every other day on the Siachen Glacier, at an annual average of 180 casualties
According to unofficial figures, over 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have lost their lives on the bloody Siachen Glacier between April 1984 and April 2012 as against over 5,000 Indian casualties
95% deaths result from extreme climate and forbidding terrain

The Indian casualty rate is a staggering 63 percent -- of every two soldiers sent up to the glacier, one will be a casualty.

Soldiers brought down to base camp often suffer hearing, eyesight and memory loss because of prolonged use of oxygen masks. Many lose eyes, hands or feet to frostbite.

And still you prefer IA sitting there ???

Just because you dont have to do the dirty work yourself ??
 
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On an average, defence experts say, one Pakistani soldier is killed every third day on the Siachen Glacier, showing approximately 100 casualties every year on an average. Similarly, one Indian soldier is killed every other day on the Siachen Glacier, at an annual average of 180 casualties
According to unofficial figures, over 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have lost their lives on the bloody Siachen Glacier between April 1984 and April 2012 as against over 5,000 Indian casualties
95% deaths result from extreme climate and forbidding terrain

The Indian casualty rate is a staggering 63 percent -- of every two soldiers sent up to the glacier, one will be a casualty.

Soldiers brought down to base camp often suffer hearing, eyesight and memory loss because of prolonged use of oxygen masks. Many lose eyes, hands or feet to frostbite.
And still you prefer IA sitting there ???
You have old statistics Azlan.

Indian army gets to zero high altitude casualties in Siachen Glacier
Siachen no longer hurts us: Army


The frostbite and other issues have been mitigated by a large extent because of DRDO creating Indian HAPO and other devices. IA getting more Arctic snow gear. We now have more money at Army's disposal so we have the means to ensure our troops get better and better working conditions there each year.

IA has achieved zero casualty rate in Siachen barring unfortunate incidences like landslide.
Just because you dont have to do the dirty work yourself ??
Do you know that serving in Siachen is voluntary?
No soldier is mandated/forced to go there.
Do you know there is a waiting list for being stationed in Siachen.

We have by and large conquered the weather there.
 
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well the point of contention @ siachen is in the interpretation of the line beyond NJ9842 (hence northwards)
Pakistan's interprets it as going north east touching Karakorum pass (which I agree is a bit irrational) while Indians one is the present actual ground position line which @ present goes north west ending @ indra coli (which again is not fair either) after all two wrongs don't make a right
so bro, how about something like agreeing to the line going in the middle of both the claims even with this India's will get to keep the bigger area plus you also get keep the the Karakorum pass thus addressing your threat of sino-pak angle point , but for us @ least something is better then nothing @ present you control all of it, come on yaar be a bit rational
how about the line NJ9842 going from the middle instead of both our extreme point's of north west & north east which is basically a 40/60 & you get to keep the 60% of it
@ least agree to this

Two different points that need raising. The first one pertains to the present AGPL & the NE orientation of that line. That is reasonable since the Saltoro constitutes the watershed which would be a main principle in boundary demarcation. The Indian position is not unjustified. Militarily too, that is a defensible position.

The second and more important point is what @Contrarian alluded to. Why should India agree to give something it already controls? For what purpose? What is Pakistan offering in return? I remember having such a discussion with you once before & the position articulated then is still valid. What is Pakistan bringing to the table in return for any compromise that they may want?

On an average, defence experts say, one Pakistani soldier is killed every third day on the Siachen Glacier, showing approximately 100 casualties every year on an average. Similarly, one Indian soldier is killed every other day on the Siachen Glacier, at an annual average of 180 casualties
According to unofficial figures, over 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have lost their lives on the bloody Siachen Glacier between April 1984 and April 2012 as against over 5,000 Indian casualties
95% deaths result from extreme climate and forbidding terrain

The Indian casualty rate is a staggering 63 percent -- of every two soldiers sent up to the glacier, one will be a casualty.

Soldiers brought down to base camp often suffer hearing, eyesight and memory loss because of prolonged use of oxygen masks. Many lose eyes, hands or feet to frostbite.

And still you prefer IA sitting there ???

Just because you dont have to do the dirty work yourself ??

Forget what defence experts say, the figure given to the Indian parliament which is the only one that would be of actual interest shows a much smaller figure - 846 when announced last year. This was from 1984-2012.
846 Indian soldiers have died in Siachen since 1984 - Rediff.com News
 
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well the point of contention @ siachen is in the interpretation of the line beyond NJ9842 (hence northwards)
Pakistan's interprets it as going north east touching Karakorum pass (which I agree is a bit irrational) while Indians one is the present actual ground position line which @ present goes north west ending @ indra coli (which again is not fair either) after all two wrongs don't make a right
so bro, how about something like agreeing to the line going in the middle of both the claims even with this India's will get to keep the bigger area plus you also get keep the the Karakorum pass thus addressing your threat of sino-pak angle point , but for us @ least something is better then nothing @ present you control all of it, come on yaar be a bit rational
how about the line NJ9842 going from the middle instead of both our extreme point's of north west & north east which is basically a 40/60 & you get to keep the 60% of it
@ least agree to this
That's a non starter as the dominating Soltoro Ride will go to Pakistan. And that my friend is the main bone of contention. Whoever occupies this ridge has a great tactical advantage over the other.

The question is, if India vacates the ridge line, where is the guarantee that Pakistan will not occupy it? For this very reason India wanted the area to be demarcated so that the area is kept as a 'no-man's land'. But unfortunately, Pakistan had refused to agree. Why? Because as I said, their grand strategy is to occupy it once the Indian troops vacate. This tactical advantage would allow them to connect with the Chinese on the Karakoram Pass and push India further South.

So, blame the PA for this stalemate as they have refused to get the area demarcated.
 
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