Taking a fighter to sea, ship deck a different ball game

[Abingdonboy]

Bengaluru: One of India’s leading Test Pilots Commodre Jaideep Avinash Maolankar gave a glimpse of sea and ship deck operations to a select-group of of scientists and engineers at National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) recently Cmde Maolankar was the guest speaker during the National Science Day celebrations at NAL.

He spoke at length about the urgent need to break away from the shore-based mindset, that’s probably hampering the pace of home-grown naval fighter jet program.

“We are committed to carrier-based operations. Ignoring the problem is not an option. We need to design airplanes that can survive sea and ship deck for 30 years. We have more aircraft carriers joining the fleet and more fighters are needed (in addition to MiG-29 K),” the ace Test Pilot said.

He said the resources devoted to naval flight operations needs to be increased and the Navy fighter jet programme has to be a stand-alone one.

“We need to buck the trend. You cannot have an Indian Air Force (IAF) programme linked to a naval one. There are lots of complexities while operating from an aircraft carrier. Carrier deck operations are always an armament officer’s nightmare,” he said.

He said a number of aspects need to be factored in while operating from a ship deck, including EMI/EMC interferences and landing gear rebound among many others.

“Navy pilots will have to think differently when coming back to landing. It will be great achievement when NLCA begins its carrier operations,”

NAL Director Shyam Chetty backed the pilot’s views and said naval LCA should not be seen as another variant of LCA Tejas.

“The naval programme is much more complex than the IAF one. NAL has contributed immensely for the Tejas programme and we are playing an active role or NLCA project as well. It’s important that we are aware of the ConOps (Concept of Operations), especially from a ship deck,” Shaym said.

Taking a fighter to sea, ship deck different ball game: Maolankar - India

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[IndoUS]

“We need to buck the trend. You cannot have an Indian Air Force (IAF) programme linked to a naval one. There are lots of complexities while operating from an aircraft carrier. Carrier deck operations are always an armament officer’s nightmare,” he said.

This needs to be addressed we need to have some divergence.

 

[Abingdonboy]

This needs to be addressed we need to have some divergence.

Indeed, and I think that is why the LCA MK.2 has two entirely seperate teams working- one on the IAF version, one on the IN version, and a similar approach will be taken to the AMCA.

"tagging on" the N-LCA to the LCA project has clealy hampered the development of the naval variant.

 

[Nilgiri]

The stress cycles for the undercarriage alone merit a cleaving of the program.

 

[C130]

India next gen of aircraft carriers with EMALS and F-35Cs

 

[Abingdonboy]

India next gen of aircraft carriers with EMALS and F-35Cs

The IN has no real interest in the F-35

+ that's a F-35B in the pic

 

[C130]

The IN has no real interest in the F-35

+ that's a F-35B in the pic

Tejas and Mig-29K will be no match for China and Pakistan fighters (assuming Pakistan get's J-20 or J-31)

F-35 would be the logical choice.


and yes that's a F-35B

 

[Abingdonboy]

Tejas and Mig-29K will be no match for China and Pakistan fighters (assuming Pakistan get's J-20 or J-31)

F-35 would be the logical choice.


and yes that's a F-35B

The Indian Navy is already in talks for the Rafale-M that will outclass anything the Chinese or Pakistanis have for the next 15 years easily. Meanwhile the AMCA will be developed.

 

[Sam.]

The Indian Navy is already in talks for the Rafale-M that will outclass anything the Chinese or Pakistanis have for the next 15 years easily. Meanwhile the AMCA will be developed.

We didn't pan out F-35/EMALS package out yet so there is a possibility for that. @PARIKRAMA might tell you more about this.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

EMALS with come with some basic package surely.. Whether thats restricted to just E2D hawkeyes and perhaps V22 AEWs with ASW customizations or beyond that in terms of fighters (F18/F35) is to be seen.
For the time, Rafale M is in pole position but then again on race day, a good strategy with sound planning of pit stop, speed, tyre wear and solid driving can see anyone emerge a winner..

Here the pit stop would be the MII part, speed would be offer which GOI/MOD can quickly agree to, tyre wear would be the opex cost+availability and Solid driving would be the fitment into Indian Navy Doctrine...

IMHO atm IN is looking at 4.5 Gen Jet post which it will take 5Th Gen. Going by their penchant of Indigenous platforms and local production motto, F35 is a tough choice as it wont be produced in India. Unless its a compelled issue for MOD bcz of the package, I dont think Navy would agree.

Moreover, from a strategic perspective operating FGFA, AMCA (IAF and Naval) and F35s - 3 types of 5th Gen Jet and 4 variants is way too much to be expected for India. 5th Gen jets are going to cost upfront and also will be costly to operate. I doubt if we can afford so many variants at one go even after 2 decades. AMCA being common to IAF and IN can help reduce lot of cost aspect. So planners wont be blind to take F35 without adequately thinking about all this.

OF course if F35 comes for both IAF and IN and AMCA plan is shelved, the whole situation changes. Perhaps that may provide a good demand and incentive for LM to even produce F35 in India. But thats a lower single digit probability as of now. But if ADA/HAL tango repeat a similar experience like Tejas program, this small single digit probability may jump rapidly up.

Only thing is USA has to change a little bit and accommodate more of India's interest at global level. In return India also needs to open up and provide one base preferably in A&N to USA. This is like outsourcing headaches. Surely, A&N can be then converted into a hitech military zone and also helps us keep in check many strategic interests.

But then radical ideas is not something which GOI is very capable of.

 

[Donald Trump]

Tejas and Mig-29K will be no match for China and Pakistan fighters (assuming Pakistan get's J-20 or J-31)

F-35 would be the logical choice.

Really? Have the J-20 or J-31 ever been tested in combat? No one except the Chinese know their 'capabilities'. So you cannot jump to conclusions and give sweeping statements. We all know what Chinese stuff actually is!

 

[Armani]

India next gen of aircraft carriers with EMALS and F-35Cs

EMALS? Yep!

E-2D Advanced Hawkeye? Yep!

F-35? Nope!

This right here is IN's future carrier-borne fighter :

 

[Desertfalcon]

EMALS? Yep!

E-2D Advanced Hawkeye? Yep!

F-35? Nope!

This right here is IN's future carrier-borne fighter :

I tend to agree with all four of your statements. And Rafale would seem to be the best choice in terms of cost/benefit ratio.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I prefer the Rafale way when trying to design a fighter. For a cash strapped nation like india which has no idea what the armed forces wants it looks like a perfect way.

 

[Abingdonboy]

We didn't pan out F-35/EMALS package out yet so there is a possibility for that. @PARIKRAMA might tell you more about this.

EMALS is all but a certainty- the F-35 is not the preffered option for the IN, they have already begun talking to Dassualt for the Rafale-M in fact.

Really? Have the J-20 or J-31 ever been tested in combat? No one except the Chinese know their 'capabilities'. So you cannot jump to conclusions and give sweeping statements. We all know what Chinese stuff actually is!

The most absurd part is that we are expected to be beleive these mythical J-XX fighters are world-beaters when the Chinese are still importing the Su-35. China has come a long way one can't deny that but the fact is it's propulsion and sensor tech (the two most crucial parts of true 5th gen fighters) is still decades behind the West. On the engine front alone, the Russians are struggling to develop a true next generation engine for the PAK-FA/FGFA and that's with their decades of expereince, the Chinese have a long path ahead of them. Reverse engineering was a shortcut to sucess but it has only carried them so far.

EMALS with come with some basic package surely.. Whether thats restricted to just E2D hawkeyes and perhaps V22 AEWs with ASW customizations or beyond that in terms of fighters (F18/F35) is to be seen.

You can rule the F-18 and F-35 out from the outset @PARIKRAMA. Since the F-18 failed to be downselected by the IAF, has the IN shown any interest in it? The IN has explictly stated they want commonality with the IAF and with them opting for the Rafale, the Rafale-M makes the most sense for the IN also. The IN isn't interested in going it alone and having to foot the bill for setting up entirely infrastructure and support structures for a brand new and navy-specific type, they are far too smart and pragmatic for that. They'll let the IAF pay and go through that pain and then tag on their requirements thereafter.

OF course if F35 comes for both IAF and IN and AMCA plan is shelved, the whole situation changes. Perhaps that may provide a good demand and incentive for LM to even produce F35 in India. But thats a lower single digit probability as of now. But if ADA/HAL tango repeat a similar experience like Tejas program, this small single digit probability may jump rapidly up.

Well bro, this is all but impossible. The US will never agree to build the F-35 outside of a NATO nation and forget about any sensitive tech transfer. Addtionally, the IAF has shown no inclination whatsoever to go for the F-35, even when Hilary Clinton (then secratary of state) was offering an absurdly optimistic price if India opted for the F-35 in leiu of the MMRCA. The FGFA and AMCA are the IAF's focus with the AMCA being so for the IN. The IAF operating 3 different types of 5th gen fighters is unthinkable.

For the time, Rafale M is in pole position but then again on race day, a good strategy with sound planning of pit stop, speed, tyre wear and solid driving can see anyone emerge a winner..

Did you just make an F1 reference?

In return India also needs to open up and provide one base preferably in A&N to USA.

Whoa, now this is a big step and one that will never be taken. No one in India's strategic circles would adovcate allowing a US base on Indian soil, it is simply not on the table- look at how emphatically the GoI denied even setting up joint patrols with the US in the SCS.