TAI and Saab to design Turkey’s indigenous fighter

[ozi2000]

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Bets open on Turkey’s first fighter aircraft​

Burak Bekdil ANKARA - Hürriyet Daily News
Turkish arms manufacturer TAI has signed a technical assistance deal with Swedish Saab to build a fighter jet, but analysts remain skeptical about the feasibility of an indigenous Turkish fighter
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A JAS - 39 Gripen fighter, manufactured by Swedish aerospace and defense company Saab, is seen. Turkish Aerospace (TAI) has signed a preliminary deal with Saab to work on developing a Turkish fighter.

A JAS - 39 Gripen fighter, manufactured by Swedish aerospace and defense company Saab, is seen. Turkish Aerospace (TAI) has signed a preliminary deal with Saab to work on developing a Turkish fighter.
It is no secret that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has been passionate about two “made in Turkey” vehicles: a car and a fighter aircraft. Interestingly, Turkish officials have found one company that builds both and could help Turkey design and develop indigenous models. Talks with Sweden’s Saab for a Turkish fighter jet are inching forward but industry sources and analysts remain skeptical.

Turkish officials have been in talks with Saab (and with Korean Aerospace Industries) to find the best modality for this ambitious project since 2010 and 2011. In August 2011, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), signed a deal with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) to carry out the conceptual design work for fighter and jet trainer aircraft Turkey hopes to build.

In recent months a Turkish delegation, including SSM officials, visited Saab headquarters and production facilities in Sweden. And more recently, TAI and Saab penned a preliminary agreement for technical assistance which will pave the way for a subsequent support deal. As part of the planned agreement, TAI is expected to acquire Saab’s aircraft design tools.

Designing the first ever Turkish fighter, according to defense analysts, is a necessary but not critical step. “What is crucial here is whether this project would enable Turkey to earn capabilities to successfully integrate avionics, electronics and weapon systems into the chosen platform,” a London-based analyst said.

Saab is the maker of the JAS 39 Gripen, a lightweight single-engine multi-role fighter. It was designed to replace the Saab 35 Draken and 37 Viggen in the Swedish Air Force (Flygvapnet). Saab has cooperated with other aerospace companies in marketing the aircraft internationally, and has achieved moderate success in Central Europe, South Africa and Southeast Asia. More than 240 Gripens have been delivered or ordered.

In 2010, Sweden awarded Saab a four-year contract to improve the Gripen’s equipment, integrate new weapons, and lower its operating costs. In August, Sweden announced it planned to buy 40 to 60 Gripen NG. The Swedish order followed Switzerland’s decision to buy 22 of the E/F variants.

US dependency on fighters

For its fighter program, dubbed the TF-X, Turkey hopes to copy the modality it had devised to co-produce the T-129 attack helicopters with the Italian-British AgustaWestland. “We think this model has worked successfully and could be a template for our fighter program,” said one aviation official. But defense sources here said the program was exposed to the risk of a prolonged conceptual design and this would make the whole project “not very meaningful.”

“Turkey hopes to fly its national fighter by 2023. This is not a realistic target,” said one source. “If the conceptual design work takes about seven to eight years from now on, the technology on which the design will be based would be too old at the production stage. You may need a time machine to efficiently use the aircraft.”

Major weapons makers are also cautious and skeptical. “We wanted to help Turkey out with its ambitions to design and develop its own fighter jet. But we had to step back when we understood that the technical requirements for the aircraft are far from being realistic,” said a top official from a Western aircraft maker.

Another Western defense executive commented: “We have been working with the Turks for decades. And we fear Turkey may end up keeping an arsenal of second-class weapons systems built at home at exorbitant prices.”

Turkey, whose present fighter fleet is made up of U.S.-made aircraft, also plans to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, a next-generation, multinational program also led by the United States. But Turkish officials say they want to develop another future jet fighter with a country other than the United States to reduce Turkey’s overdependence on Washington.

March/20/2013

 

[LegionnairE]

“Turkey hopes to fly its national fighter by 2023. This is not a realistic target,” said one source. “If the conceptual design work takes about seven to eight years from now on, the technology on which the design will be based would be too old at the production stage. You may need a time machine to efficiently use the aircraft.”

People have a right to remain skeptical but I honestly think this is stupid. Please note that Turkey will still be flying with F16 Fighting Falcons in 2020s which is essentially a 1970s design

Designing the first ever Turkish fighter, according to defense analysts, is a necessary but not critical step. “What is crucial here is whether this project would enable Turkey to earn capabilities to successfully integrate avionics, electronics and weapon systems into the chosen platform,” a London-based analyst said.

Again we've been putting together fighter aircraft since the Peace Onyx I. We'll be assembling F35s in the coming decades at TAI facilities so I don't see how this is more difficult than the actual design

Analysts my arse

 

[BordoEnes]

I think a working Prototype by 2023 is definitly realistic, I mean Taiwan builts its Domestic Fighter jet within 8 Years. Seeming that we have way more experience and technology then Taiwan had at that time, I have no doubt we will be able to built one. Its not like its going to be a high-tech end 5th Generation Jet.

These kind of news annoy me, really, Some people are way to skeptical and some are way to optimistic.

Taiwans *****-1 Ching-kuo

 

[tyrant]

Major weapons makers are also cautious and skeptical. “We wanted to help Turkey out with its ambitions to design and develop its own fighter jet. But we had to step back when we understood that the technical requirements for the aircraft are far from being realistic,” said a top official from a Western aircraft maker.

Another Western defense executive commented: “We have been working with the Turks for decades. And we fear Turkey may end up keeping an arsenal of second-class weapons systems built at home at exorbitant prices.”

Apparently, some western Analysts are worse than enemies. Germany and US built tens of major designs in WW2 in a few years or even months.

 

[cabatli_53]

I think a working Prototype by 2023 is definitly realistic, I mean Taiwan builts its Domestic Fighter jet within 8 Years. Seeming that we have way more experience and technology then Taiwan had at that time, I have no doubt we will be able to built one. Its not like its going to be a high-tech end 5th Generation Jet.

Something should be enlightened... Main priority of Turkish defence industry is to develop STATE OF ART systems which will be compatible against the "best" in market in an optimum time and budget. As Murat Bayar stated, If the program doesn't aim to be around the best at the beggining with a dedicated budget and If the system to be developed doesn't add serious capabilities, It means It is not feasible so It is no need to start pouring money on them. TSK is one of the most difficult costumers in World It is because of the stress/chaos environment of region & statues of the country borders they have been charged to protect from air/land/sea/space/underwater and thousands of years military traditions & so high vision which is descibed as competing with own age. That's why The programs and their development times take so many years, Some of them is delaying, acceptance tests become a nightmare for Turkish institutes...etc That's why Some Turkish institutes succesfully export their products abroad before Turkish army places an order.


There is one thing for sure that TSK will never accept a low tech/old generation system with pointing out the nationalistic reasons on media under a big Turkish flag, While playing a nationalisti song (That's why TSK is also working along with TAI engineers at feasibility stuides similar with Atak program, Milgem, T-155 Firtina, Leopard-2NG, Altay...etc) so Be sure that The domestic aircraft to be developed under the collaboration with SAAB will be around top such as Milgem, UMTAS, T-129 Atak...etc As long as The aircraft didn't meet the performance criterias foreseen at feasibility studies, It will delay and delay.

 

[BordoEnes]

@cabatli_53 Perhaps you misunderstood, My point was that it (Propably) wont be a 5th Generation Fighter jet thus the development and R&D within 10 Years is realistic, No need to be skeptical when we have the neccesary experience and resourches to built an advanced Fighter jet.

 

[Kompromat]

By 2020 All blocks of the Jf-17 would in production and any additional technical help from Pakistan/China would be available to Turkey. I trust Turkey is able to make this dream a reality.

Good luck and Godspeed!

 

[cabatli_53]

@cabatli_53 Perhaps you misunderstood, My point was that it (Propably) wont be a 5th Generation Fighter jet thus the development and R&D within 10 Years is realistic, No need to be skeptical when we have the neccesary experience and resourches to built an advanced Fighter jet.

Although I quoted your speeches, I made my sentences to point out the defence industry quality targets in parralel with Turkish Army's acceptance mentality bro so There is no misunderstanding...

 

[TheCommander]

When I read the article, I clearly see the psychological attack to demoralize us. This perception, unfortunately, created "You turk can`t do a good job, even if you do it will be junk so and so forth". Even in our media this perception is carried out "Turk isi". Although our nation was so successful in the history (turks many times ruled their regions and the world), so I cannot understand this effort to create "Inferiority complex", well I understand the western countries but some people who pretend to be a nationalist and patriots in our country do this as well. This reminds me how some corrupt people shut down the aircraft factory while we were able to do good job at that time!

Look at the past ten years, where we were and where we are! If we have a stable government (I am not talking about the government is good or bad, so leave this there), then with educated and dedicated people, we can achieve many things we dream of inshallah.

 

[Oublious]

We are struggling with the basics. And this need some time! So no panic please.

 

[FireFistAce]

“Turkey hopes to fly its national fighter by 2023. This is not a realistic target,” said one source. “If the conceptual design work takes about seven to eight years from now on, the technology on which the design will be based would be too old at the production stage. You may need a time machine to efficiently use the aircraft.”

You never know unless you try. Once you gather courage and step in you soon find out that things are easier than they appeared.
In a nutshell, I think, Aerospace Industry is purely a matter of money.
Pure enough money into it and you will get a fighter in a year or two (just like blackbird).

 

[selvan33]

TAI and Saab to design Turkey’s indigenous fighter


It is no secret that Prime MinisterRecep Tayyip Erdo?an has been passionate about two “made in Turkey” vehicles: a car and a fighter aircraft. Interestingly, Turkish officials have found one company that builds both and could help Turkey design and develop indigenous models. Talks with Sweden’s Saab for a Turkish fighter jet are inching forward but industry sources and analysts remain skeptical.

Turkish officials have been in talks with Saab (and with Korean Aerospace Industries) to find the best modality for this ambitious project since 2010 and 2011. In August 2011, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), signed a deal with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) to carry out the conceptual design work for fighter and jet trainer aircraft Turkey hopes to build.

In recent months a Turkish delegation, including SSM officials, visited Saab headquarters and production facilities in Sweden. And more recently, TAI and Saab penned a preliminary agreement for technical assistance which will pave the way for a subsequent support deal. As part of the planned agreement, TAI is expected to acquire Saab’s aircraft design tools.

Designing the first ever Turkish fighter, according to defense analysts, is a necessary but not critical step. “What is crucial here is whether this project would enable Turkey to earn capabilities to successfully integrate avionics, electronics and weapon systems into the chosen platform,” a London-based analyst said.

Saab is the maker of the JAS 39 Gripen, a lightweight single-engine multi-role fighter. It was designed to replace the Saab 35 Draken and 37 Viggen in the Swedish Air Force (Flygvapnet). Saab has cooperated with other aerospace companies in marketing the aircraft internationally, and has achieved moderate success in Central Europe, South Africa and Southeast Asia. More than 240 Gripens have been delivered or ordered.

In 2010, Sweden awarded Saab a four-year contract to improve the Gripen’s equipment, integrate new weapons, and lower its operating costs. In August, Sweden announced it planned to buy 40 to 60 Gripen NG. The Swedish order followed Switzerland’s decision to buy 22 of the E/F variants.

US dependency on fighters

For its fighter program, dubbed the TF-X, Turkey hopes to copy the modality it had devised to co-produce the T-129 attack helicopters with the Italian-British AgustaWestland. “We think this model has worked successfully and could be a template for our fighter program,” said one aviation official. But defense sources here said the program was exposed to the risk of a prolonged conceptual design and this would make the whole project “not very meaningful.”

“Turkey hopes to fly its national fighter by 2023. This is not a realistic target,” said one source. “If the conceptual design work takes about seven to eight years from now on, the technology on which the design will be based would be too old at the production stage. You may need a time machine to efficiently use the aircraft.”

Major weapons makers are also cautious and skeptical. “We wanted to help Turkey out with its ambitions to design and develop its own fighter jet. But we had to step back when we understood that the technical requirements for the aircraft are far from being realistic,” said a top official from a Western aircraft maker.

Another Western defense executive commented: “We have been working with the Turks for decades. And we fear Turkey may end up keeping an arsenal of second-class weapons systems built at home at exorbitant prices.”

Turkey, whose present fighter fleet is made up of U.S.-made aircraft, also plans to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, a next-generation, multinational program also led by the United States. But Turkish officials say they want to develop another future jet fighter with a country other than the United States to reduce Turkey’s overdependence on Washington.

 

[Syrian Lion]

would it be still called indigenous if Swedish Saab helped with the design?

 

[selvan33]

would it be still called indigenous if Swedish Saab helped with the design?

might be but that will be called as Turkish fighter with foreign help

 

[FireFistAce]

would it be still called indigenous if Swedish Saab helped with the design?

name a fighter that has been developed and built without foreign help.