Swarm Fleet

[FuturePAF]

What is the purpose of the Pakistan Navy?
Both in times of peace and in times of war; it is to defend the sovereignty of the state of Pakistan and defend the territory and territorial waters of the nation

in order to do this, Pakistan needs assets in sufficient quantity and quality to maintain superiority in its own waters and when needs to have enough force to deliver decisive force against an opponent when a tactical, operational, or strategic requirement deems it necessary.

IMHO Pakistan is a Green water navy; and while blue water assets are not unnecessary, as Pakistan has interests further afield, Pakistan should focus on building a navy with the backbone of its fleet being heavily armed patrol boats which are supported and protected by modest AAW/ASW frigates

Pakistan's navy is more similar to the Israeli Navy (whose current largest vessel weighs less than 1250 tons fully loaded, and the largest vessel on order will be under 2000 tons Sa'ar 6 Class Corvette), a small number of high tech boats provide cover for a large number of smaller vessels to practice maneuver warfare and commando raids.

While Pakistan's primary foe is a conventional force (unlike the bulk of Israel's usual opposition) the concept is still the same, lighter or mobile forces using the latest tech can be more effective then large frigates patrolling of a coastline

-------------

Pakistan should look to beefing up the Azmat Class of patrol boats
the original design is a good start, but making way for a larger boat with enough space for a few more key systems might be just what fits the PN's backbone needs. Pakistan has done a ToT for both the F-22P and Azmat Class vessels, so costs should be lower on future vessels.

http://i.imgur.com/CnLsg.jpg

Each of azmat class missile boat costs weighs 560 tons and costs roughly $50 Million (not sure if with or without the sub-systems) and each F-22P costs $175 Million (or roughly more than 3 times more than an Azmat class vessel)

A ship to look to for some ideas about upgrades is the french Gowind L'Adroit. its the right balance of patrol boat for coast guard duties and can be armed up for armed patrol duties in times of crisis. its variants feature near modern destroyer level C4ISR in a small area and it is great small boat for ASW (its small size will also help decrease its signature to enemy submarines)

rebuilding/improving/updating the azmat design from the keel up; its should be made as acoustically silent as possible with the financial constraints; either a codlog or codlag propulsion system would be a game changer in terms of ASW capability

from here Pakistan could plan for a fleet of 12-16 ships with 3-4 major variants; ASW, ASuW, and Coast Guard Vessel ( Lightly Armed patrol Boat focused on surveillance)

The Common upgrade would be three major ones besides the new propulsion
-Replace the main Gun with a Bofors 40mm Mk.4 Gun (small and compact both above and below deck, but with a variety of ammo rounds to chose from)

-Replace the Ak-630 CIWS with a system like the new naval Pantsir (twin barrels and 8 reload able missiles with ranges out to 10km)
Alert 5 » Naval Pantsir is based on Kashtan CIWS - Military Aviation News
-Integrated mast; feature four fixed radars and other features inside a common mast to enhance C4ISR
a mast similar to thales i-mast 100 or the one proposed on the turkish Fast Missile Craft TTHB-1 / FMC 69 design shown at IDEF 2015
IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette Designs


For ASW Variant; An Active towed array sonar, Advanced Torpedos, and ASW defenses (this class can also serve to replace the 3 nearly 30 year old mine hunter ships)
For ASuW Variant: a mix of CX-1 Supersonic Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and C-803 Subsonic Cruise missiles
For General Patrol / Coast Guard Variant: Remove missiles and place room for launching UAVs like scan Eagle Mk.2, UAV Helicopters like Camcopter; or even the navy's Z-9 (not landing but enough room for safely picking up and dropping personnel and supplies), unmanned underwater platforms, modules to do spy missions, drop of commandos, carrying heavier RHIB boats for catching pirates, smugglers, or etc. on the high seas and heavier sea states.

-------------
If 12-16 of these vessels made up the backbone of the Fleet and if the follow-on to the F-22P class were upgraded with better AAW capabilities, it could serve to maintain a decent qualitative force for a modest price in defense of the nation

 

[CHI RULES]

can we use Azmat class design to build corvettes by further adding stealth features. Further our F22P frigates have only one shortcoming and that is limited range SAM system. We should equip them with HQ16.

 

[313baberali]

What is the purpose of the Pakistan Navy?
Both in times of peace and in times of war; it is to defend the sovereignty of the state of Pakistan and defend the territory and territorial waters of the nation

in order to do this, Pakistan needs assets in sufficient quantity and quality to maintain superiority in its own waters and when needs to have enough force to deliver decisive force against an opponent when a tactical, operational, or strategic requirement deems it necessary.

IMHO Pakistan is a Green water navy; and while blue water assets are not unnecessary, as Pakistan has interests further afield, Pakistan should focus on building a navy with the backbone of its fleet being heavily armed patrol boats which are supported and protected by modest AAW/ASW frigates

Pakistan's navy is more similar to the Israeli Navy (whose current largest vessel weighs less than 1250 tons fully loaded, and the largest vessel on order will be under 2000 tons Sa'ar 6 Class Corvette), a small number of high tech boats provide cover for a large number of smaller vessels to practice maneuver warfare and commando raids.

While Pakistan's primary foe is a conventional force (unlike the bulk of Israel's usual opposition) the concept is still the same, lighter or mobile forces using the latest tech can be more effective then large frigates patrolling of a coastline

-------------

Pakistan should look to beefing up the Azmat Class of patrol boats
the original design is a good start, but making way for a larger boat with enough space for a few more key systems might be just what fits the PN's backbone needs. Pakistan has done a ToT for both the F-22P and Azmat Class vessels, so costs should be lower on future vessels.

http://i.imgur.com/CnLsg.jpg

Each of azmat class missile boat costs weighs 560 tons and costs roughly $50 Million (not sure if with or without the sub-systems) and each F-22P costs $175 Million (or roughly more than 3 times more than an Azmat class vessel)

A ship to look to for some ideas about upgrades is the french Gowind L'Adroit. its the right balance of patrol boat for coast guard duties and can be armed up for armed patrol duties in times of crisis. its variants feature near modern destroyer level C4ISR in a small area and it is great small boat for ASW (its small size will also help decrease its signature to enemy submarines)

rebuilding/improving/updating the azmat design from the keel up; its should be made as acoustically silent as possible with the financial constraints; either a codlog or codlag propulsion system would be a game changer in terms of ASW capability

from here Pakistan could plan for a fleet of 12-16 ships with 3-4 major variants; ASW, ASuW, and Coast Guard Vessel ( Lightly Armed patrol Boat focused on surveillance)

The Common upgrade would be three major ones besides the new propulsion
-Replace the main Gun with a Bofors 40mm Mk.4 Gun (small and compact both above and below deck, but with a variety of ammo rounds to chose from)

-Replace the Ak-630 CIWS with a system like the new naval Pantsir (twin barrels and 8 reload able missiles with ranges out to 10km)
Alert 5 » Naval Pantsir is based on Kashtan CIWS - Military Aviation News
-Integrated mast; feature four fixed radars and other features inside a common mast to enhance C4ISR
a mast similar to thales i-mast 100 or the one proposed on the turkish Fast Missile Craft TTHB-1 / FMC 69 design shown at IDEF 2015
IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette Designs


For ASW Variant; An Active towed array sonar, Advanced Torpedos, and ASW defenses (this class can also serve to replace the 3 nearly 30 year old mine hunter ships)
For ASuW Variant: a mix of CX-1 Supersonic Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles and C-803 Subsonic Cruise missiles
For General Patrol / Coast Guard Variant: Remove missiles and place room for launching UAVs like scan Eagle Mk.2, UAV Helicopters like Camcopter; or even the navy's Z-9 (not landing but enough room for safely picking up and dropping personnel and supplies), unmanned underwater platforms, modules to do spy missions, drop of commandos, carrying heavier RHIB boats for catching pirates, smugglers, or etc. on the high seas and heavier sea states.

-------------
If 12-16 of these vessels made up the backbone of the Fleet and if the follow-on to the F-22P class were upgraded with better AAW capabilities, it could serve to maintain a decent qualitative force for a modest price in defense of the nation

Pakistan azmat class design needs serious changes .it looks more residential, rather than a Attacking ship,Taiwan recent
Tuo Chiang-class
ship is almost same in weight but looks more better design ,less crew members,more missiles than azmat class,and ideal design for a attackingcraft,a design which reallylooks for attack .This design helps in replanishing missiles more quickly.16 missiles this ship holds a full firing power.Azmat class carry only 8 such missiles.

Pakistan Navy should consider this design as its new and really made for hunt.even f22p also looks a residential complex than a hunting best,f22p is such a bigship but carry less number of missiles than this taiwan beauty as compare to weight.if this design is added in next class of f22p it would increase its firepower .right now both f22p and azmat class carry same old thought of frame base missiles pads and launchers.this taiwan design shows seriousness of designing a ideal location and permanent spot for attacking missiles.

 

[Wolf]

Agreed! small ships with more firepower and speed can be deadly. Furthermore, armored assault amphibious vehicles should be inducted.

 

[Penguin]

Can this eez be effectively patrolled with just relatively small patrol boats? Also the BLUE bit... which is in the high risk area

Can a swarm fleet effectively safeguard Pakistan's Sloc's?

 

[randomradio]

supported and protected by modest AAW/ASW frigates

That's not survivable. If your defensive capabilities don't match or exceed the enemy's offensive capabilities, then it won't make a dent on the enemy. Your ASW and AAW will be swimming alongside the very submarines they are meant to protect.

The Israelis don't have an enemy with a capable navy. And the Israeli defensive capabilities exceed the enemy's offensive capability.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

These strategies are helpful in terms of defensive move but PN should have some offensive punch at a longer distance specially in international waters.That is required Destroyers...?

 

[FuturePAF]

That's not survivable. If your defensive capabilities don't match or exceed the enemy's offensive capabilities, then it won't make a dent on the enemy. Your ASW and AAW will be swimming alongside the very submarines they are meant to protect.

The Israelis don't have an enemy with a capable navy. And the Israeli defensive capabilities exceed the enemy's offensive capability.

It depends on how Low in detect-ability these vessels are in the first place (at the far extreme the low detect-ability of the Visby class corvette, along with their ability to hide behind the many islands in the Swedish islands) and what strategy India and Pakistan employ in time of heightened tensions all the way up to any limited or full scale war

IMHO during and increase in tensions, India will most likely try to cut off Pakistan's SLOC and try to blockade its ports in an effort to coerce it. If a skirmish on land or in the air escalate to a shooting war, part of India's attacks would be to launch coordinated air and sea strikes at Pakistani military and shipping capability at the ports.

to counter this, Pakistan must be able to blunt such an attack (this is where ground based defense are a must, as well as decoys and backup infrastructure), counter attack at Indian critical infrastructure supporting there war fighting capacity (logistics) and finally break a blockade while it tries to do some diplomatic dance.

after the main exchanges; Pakistan will have to have enough vessels to defend its SLOC and show it has sovereignty over EEZ

----------
to break that blockade and escort the ships in the SLOC; robust ships with low detect-ability but modest attack and defensive systems seem to be what would fits the PN's needs; especially if you can get three ships for the price of one frigate.

its not always about having better offensive capabilities all the time, but overwhelming fire power when you need it
hence the idea of the swarm; a large number of small vessels that are harder for the enemy to detect and engage why the defenders can see and attack the blockade ships, and then retreat to hide at places along the coast

losing some of these patrol boats while sinking Blockade ships could dent Indian strategy, or at the very least buy time, while hostilities are ceased diplomatically

also it would not be a few frigates and a dozen of these boats against say a 100 Indian warships; it would be those few frigates, the dozen or so modern patrol boats and may 100-200 or so relatively cheap speed boats armed with a couple of modern anti-ship cruise missiles

Millennium Challenge 2002 was a pivotal exercise to study in this regard
Learning Curve: Iranian Asymmetrical Warfare and Millennium Challenge 2002

http://i57.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/dc/9f12208aa22050d6a52ee27e630010dc.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0ofmkikhAnA/hqdefault.jpg

----------
the main appeal to me it that Pakistan and India don't really want to go to war with each other, and these smaller ships could serve their whole operationally lives are OPV (offshore patrol vessels) in a policing role, or research vessels charting resources in the EEZ (fisheries, seabed minerals), rescuing fishermen

so in stead of large frigates, costing alot to operate and maintain, a larger number of cheaper boats doing more useful things for 99% of their careers can get more bang for the buck, and still give more capability in times of a war

 

[randomradio]

It depends on how Low in detect-ability these vessels are in the first place (at the far extreme the low detect-ability of the Visby class corvette, along with their ability to hide behind the many islands in the Swedish islands) and what strategy India and Pakistan employ in time of heightened tensions all the way up to any limited or full scale war

Sweden is not a valid metric for comparison. Sweden operates alongside bigger NATO ships and submarines.

to break that blockade and escort the ships in the SLOC; robust ships with low detect-ability but modest attack and defensive systems seem to be what would fits the PN's needs; especially if you can get three ships for the price of one frigate.

its not always about having better offensive capabilities all the time, but overwhelming fire power when you need it
hence the idea of the swarm; a large number of small vessels that are harder for the enemy to detect and engage why the defenders can see and attack the blockade ships, and then retreat to hide at places along the coast

This won't work. Even the Pentagon has been directed to cancel one of their LCS models and reduce orders in favour of larger vessels that can challenge China and Russia.

Small vessels don't have overwhelming firepower. And you need larger ships for AAW, or your sensors will be limited by horizon.

 

[FuturePAF]

Sweden is not a valid metric for comparison. Sweden operates alongside bigger NATO ships and submarines.



This won't work. Even the Pentagon has been directed to cancel one of their LCS models and reduce orders in favour of larger vessels that can challenge China and Russia.

Small vessels don't have overwhelming firepower. And you need larger ships for AAW, or your sensors will be limited by horizon.

You are correct that Sweden would have operated alongside NATO against a soviet attack, but Sweden's capabilities were geared towards win a few skirmishes as part of the boarder NATO response to soviet aggression.

These smaller vessels wouldn't operate on just their own sensors, but be tied into a network of sensors on a couple of frigates in the area, ground based radars, AWACS, etc.

The offensive firepower would be spread out on the 100-200 small speed boats; armed with modern cruise missiles, and the defensive force besides the few AAW frigates in the area, would be on these beefed up Azmat Class ships, as well as some older jalalat and lrkana class patrol ships (upgraded with FL-3000N in place of their cruise missiles, and type 630 or 730 CIWS in place of their main guns)

sure India would be able to detect, engage, and destroy some of these ships; but if the PN ends up sinking major surface vessels, it would be disrupt to Indian strategy; and tie up the Indian navy; as other assets prosecute other aspect of the war

 

[randomradio]

You are correct that Sweden would have operated alongside NATO against a soviet attack, but Sweden's capabilities were geared towards win a few skirmishes as part of the boarder NATO response to soviet aggression.

These smaller vessels wouldn't operate on just their own sensors, but be tied into a network of sensors on a couple of frigates in the area, ground based radars, AWACS, etc.

The offensive firepower would be spread out on the 100-200 small speed boats; armed with modern cruise missiles, and the defensive force besides the few AAW frigates in the area, would be on these beefed up Azmat Class ships, as well as some older jalalat and lrkana class patrol ships (upgraded with FL-3000N in place of their cruise missiles, and type 630 or 730 CIWS in place of their main guns)

sure India would be able to detect, engage, and destroy some of these ships; but if the PN ends up sinking major surface vessels, it would be disrupt to Indian strategy; and tie up the Indian navy; as other assets prosecute other aspect of the war

So if the IN takes out the few bigger frigates, the smaller ships will be doomed.

And frigates are not good for AAW, you need destroyers. Mainly you need height. If your frigates have more than 70m height, then you can use them, but you will need at least half a dozen of them. And they cannot be modest. Modest = dead.

And what do you mean by speed boats, are you talking about corvettes? If you are referring to corvettes of the Azmat class, they may have some amount of firepower, but it won't operate in the high seas where the IN will operate during war. If you are talking about corvettes of the size of the Indian Kamorta class, you can't afford 100-200 of those.

The reason why you need bigger and better equipped ships is because you need to be able to find your enemy in the high seas. If you can't find your enemy while they can find you, then your 100-200 corvettes are just target practice. And if you want to operate aircraft around an enemy that has bigger and better ships, then you better have really, really good aircraft with really, really good AAW support, or that aircraft won't survive.

Then you also need to think about all the air assets the enemy has. In your case it is India, so there are at least 6 squadrons of land based squadrons of the IAF and 2 squadrons of carrier based aircraft on 1 carrier. That's about 140 fighter aircraft flying in the Arabian Sea area today. So if you plan on creating a no fly zone to protect your corvettes, you will need highly advanced AAW and ASW capability.

Modest simply doesn't work when you are talking about the navy.

 

[FuturePAF]

So if the IN takes out the few bigger frigates, the smaller ships will be doomed.

And frigates are not good for AAW, you need destroyers. Mainly you need height. If your frigates have more than 70m height, then you can use them, but you will need at least half a dozen of them. And they cannot be modest. Modest = dead.

And what do you mean by speed boats, are you talking about corvettes? If you are referring to corvettes of the Azmat class, they may have some amount of firepower, but it won't operate in the high seas where the IN will operate during war. If you are talking about corvettes of the size of the Indian Kamorta class, you can't afford 100-200 of those.

The reason why you need bigger and better equipped ships is because you need to be able to find your enemy in the high seas. If you can't find your enemy while they can find you, then your 100-200 corvettes are just target practice. And if you want to operate aircraft around an enemy that has bigger and better ships, then you better have really, really good aircraft with really, really good AAW support, or that aircraft won't survive.

Then you also need to think about all the air assets the enemy has. In your case it is India, so there are at least 6 squadrons of land based squadrons of the IAF and 2 squadrons of carrier based aircraft on 1 carrier. That's about 140 fighter aircraft flying in the Arabian Sea area today. So if you plan on creating a no fly zone to protect your corvettes, you will need highly advanced AAW and ASW capability.

Modest simply doesn't work when you are talking about the navy.

I agree modest doesn't work; there is no way around having at least half a dozen modern air defense ships (frigate/destroyer)

then the issue dwindles down to two points

1. building up the economy to half the resources to buy or build a proper navy
(at current the navy is not capable of putting up decent defense if what you pointed out can actually be organized and coordinated effectively)
2. merchant ships currently would be tied up in karachi, but if the chinese develop gwadar and run it, they could base a couple of type 56 corvettes there and sale one with a convoy of ships to a friendly or neutral port; the merchant ships flying the chinese flag during the time of hostiles for safe passage

but even after getting 6 modern aaw destroyers; that still wont be enough against dozen of indian frigates and destroyers and submarines and hundreds of aircraft

hence the idea of modern aaw destroyers protecting a dozen corvettes and 100 or 200 speedboats each armed with either antiship cruise missiles or long range torpedos

by speed boats i mean
http://i57.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/dc/9f12208aa22050d6a52ee27e630010dc.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0ofmkikhAnA/hqdefault.jpg

modified to be quieter acoustically and in terms of rcs; but you get the point

 

[jupiter2007]

Azmat class need an upgrade..........

Class & type: Fast attack craft
Displacement: 560 tons
Length: 206 ft 7 in (63 m)
Beam: 28 ft 9 in (8.8 m)
Speed: Top Speed 30 knots
Range: approximately 1000 nautical mile (1852 km)
Complement: 12-14 sailors
Electronic warfare
& decoys:
Decoy launcher HOT DOG
Chaff launcher DAG 2200 Wolke
Armament:
1 × 23mm automatic gun
1 × AK-630 CIWS
2 × 4 cell C-802 SSM anti-ship missiles
1 × GDC RAM launcher, 21 cells (or Chinese made RAM launcher)
Mine laying capability

 

[randomradio]

2. merchant ships currently would be tied up in karachi, but if the chinese develop gwadar and run it, they could base a couple of type 56 corvettes there and sale one with a convoy of ships to a friendly or neutral port; the merchant ships flying the chinese flag during the time of hostiles for safe passage

Don't expect the Chinese to support you during wartime directly. They will give you equipment and money, but nothing beyond that.

by speed boats i mean
http://i57.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/dc/9f12208aa22050d6a52ee27e630010dc.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0ofmkikhAnA/hqdefault.jpg

That won't work against the Indian Navy. The IN will operate in high seas. The Iranians have built their fleet for the Persian Gulf.

Check Operation Trident. IN did exactly the same as you are talking about now, but that time was different.

 

[GoldenRatio1618]

Pakistan navy needs such type of attacking ships more than 10 in numbers equiped with Babur cruise missiles and Nasr missiles with range of 350km to 700 km....