Save Taliban or save Pakistan

[OrionHunter]

my brother which is Squadron Leader in air force told me 3 months ago that in Pakistan air force intelligence agencies have captured 64 persons in the link with Taliban and terrorist and all they are officers and soldiers

Wow! That's a pretty serious development! But I don't believe it!

 

[FaujHistorian]

I sincerely wish it was as simple as that. Changing the dress is easy but undoing the indoctrination of the past 30 years is not so. I admire the sentiment though.

Absolutely.

Pant suit is a metaphor. And yes the Gen C has to undo its own indoctrination, but also the Gen D's. And it will be a lot of work. I do see signs of it but they are faint and far between.


there is hope.


peace to you. peace to all,

 

[Dr. NooB NinjA]

Self delete....

Gulp..!!!

 

[FaujHistorian]

As I said earlier its my personal opinion based on articles I have seen and read "somewhere/sometime"...

These are few of the articles I could find after a superficial search on google:

.........
And as I have said before : It might not be a 100% correct(Pakistan exploiting E.Pakistan economically); but it is not that insignificant that it can be overlooked so easily..

PS : I am a medical man; was good at math in my school days though..!!

Great to have you doctor sahib.

I have done a lot of study of the dark period (due to West Pakistan's behavior) and I understand what you are saying.

Here is a simple question.

In today's dollars, Pakistan's (both Wes and East) was say $40 billion a year. Tell me based on your calculations, how much revenue was earned from jute export, and what was the net allocation of E. Pakistan's budget?

Hint: E. Pakistan's budget allocation started out as 35% and rose to 45% in 1970. As you said you are good in maths, let's see what your numbers are. Thank you.

 

[JayAtl]

Fauj, what are your opinions on Kashmir , not as an off topic but directly related to resources put towards it or "white noise" that has led it be a lighting rod to cover lack of internal growth and political fortitude towards advancing Pakistan. If we look at realities on the ground ( geo-political climate)-that portion is not going to be handed over as many think it would be. and if you agree then do you think the enormous distraction of Kashmir is holding Pakistan back?

 

[Jango]

Pakistani Gen A did wonderfully. They used duty, honor and discipline and got Pakistan out of doghouse. Our Gen A worked closely with the Americans, developed agriculture, industry, education, and banking sector. In no time we were the trend setters among the developing countries. People in Pakistan should be thankful to Americans for the wheat variety known as Mexi-Pak (developed in New Mexico) that brought about green revolution in Pakistan.

I think that the reason for this was that they had seen all the sacrifices of the Muslims of India for a separate country. They saw and heard the speeches of Jinnah, saw the enthusiasm, saw the atrocities and injustices done, that they really cared for this new home. They didn't want the sacrifices of the Muslims to go in vain, they wanted it to be worthwhile.

Gen A members who traveled hundreds of kilometers to a new home understood the need of nation building and character. Especially after the Indian establishment and the British setup didn't give Pakistan her fair share. No office structure, no factories, no administration, no money, no nothing.

I am not Gen A or Gen B, but my grand parents told me stories, how they traveled from Rajori to Kotli on foot, their feet full of blisters. How the offices lacked common pins, so they broke little twigs from trees to join papers together. How they sat on the floor and much more.

There was a real jazba for a new Pakistan, a urge to do something.

Now I feel, that there are many people who take it for granted. Kind of like, '**** pakayi roti'.

 

[Dr. NooB NinjA]

Great to have you doctor sahib.

I have done a lot of study of the dark period (due to West Pakistan's behavior) and I understand what you are saying.

Here is a simple question.

In today's dollars, Pakistan's (both Wes and East) was say $40 billion a year. Tell me based on your calculations, how much revenue was earned from jute export, and what was the net allocation of E. Pakistan's budget?

Hint: E. Pakistan's budget allocation started out as 35% and rose to 45% in 1970. As you said you are good in maths, let's see what your numbers are. Thank you.

I will have to post this link once again then i guess..

Virtual Bangladesh : History : Economic Exploitation

It says that:

East Pakistan blame three instruments of the Central Government for their plight:-

Pakistan's scant investible resources, plus foreign aid, are directed unduly to the development of West Pakistan - to the comparative neglect of East Pakistan
In particular, East Pakistan's foreign trade earning are diverted to finance imports for West Pakistan.
Economic policy favors West Pakistan at the expense of East Pakistan. Specifically, tariffs, import controls, and industrial licensing compel East Pakistan to purchase commodities from West Pakistan which, but for the controls could be obtained more cheaply in world markets.

From 1948-60 East Pakistan's export earnings had been 70%, but its share of import earnings was only 25%.
A sizable net transfer of resources had taken place from East to West Pakistan. The report states that, if allowance is made for the undervaluation of foreign exchange in terms of Pakistan's domestic currency, the total transfer from East to West Pakistan over the period 1948/49-1968/69 was Rs 31,000,000,000 [1971 terms]. Using the then exchange rate of Rs 11.90 to the dollar, this worked out to 2.6 thousand million dollars in 1971 terms.


Now coming to mathematics...
If the export earnings of East Pakistan was to the tune of 70% of the total;
Budget allocation(starting at 35% and going to 45%) even to the tune of 45% does not make much a good sales pitch...
If they were earning 70%; budget allocation ideally should have been ~ 70%...

But that is not actually possible nor it is a good thing to do...
It will be like asking 6% of total budgetary allocation for Mumbai itself as it contributes ~6% to India's' GDP...
And cities like mine will never get a new road ever..!!

Still I dont think E. Pakistan ever got its fair share...
Jahan aag hai wahin se dhua nikalta hai...

 

[FaujHistorian]

1 ---- @ Fauji - I like what your analogy represents; the suit with its discipline, dignity, a deep sense of work-ethic, civics & all the other good things that the Gora imbued us with !



2 ---- However at the same time it represented something else too - A void ! Which is to say we were being 'Goras more than the Gora Sahib' himself & that when he left the hollowness of our own abilities, vision & strength of character was exposed. We were slaves & the Gora was the Master;


3 --- we kicked the Gora out & wore his mantle before successive failures realized that those who've served for generations are ill-suited to lead.


4 --- We needed a Leader par excellence & we found one in a barrister from Bombay named Muhammad Ali Jinnah. He led us through thick & thin & got us what we & he believed would be in our best interest - Pakistan.


5 --- Then came the time when the country that was born needed to be nurtured till it matures & yet Our Father died. We found ourselves at the mercy of that same mediocrity that had crippled us for generations before the Quaid & has continued to do so generations after his death.

6 --- Between Ayub Khan & Musharaf there hasn't been a single leader who could provide the guidance that Pakistan & Pakistanis needed to in a way 'grow up'...not even Bhutto could measure up to that which was required of such a leader.

And by guidance I don't mean spoon feeding the masses but rather the development of that one thing that if done right would keep the wheel going perpetually,


7--- namely - Institutions. Our institutions are by & large in shambles & have been fighting a loosing battle since the early days of Pakistan where the Gora was replaced by his clerk & yet neither the skill-set nor the vision was exchanged as well. This would have changed if the Political Leadership of the country had invested heavily into our own human resource early on so that 15-20 years from that day the next generation of Pakistanis would both be men & women of vision & competence that a country like Pakistan deserves to take it forward. Do that once & the cycle will continue in perpetuity !

8 --- P.S I like wearing the Shalwar Kameez !

#1 -- Thank you.

#8 -- Sorry.

#2 -- British ruled large part world at one point (sun never set in the empire). But they only found one place the sub-continent India where people picked up English language with no problem whatsoever. And my dear Sir, we didn't pick up the language like a slave. We picked up the language like a master. How else we could write prose and poetry in the language. Thus we all Indian and Pakistanis should be proud of ourselves of our capabilities. The whole world is now trying to communicate in English, and we were 300 years ahead of everyone. Picking up English language, pant suit, discipline, honor, and duty from anywhere else is definitely not the sign of being slave, it is the sign of being master. we are born as blank slate, and learn as we go, then why not learn the best possible habits? Please remember that.

#3 -- We didn't have to "kick gora" out. He handed over the control to us. Please keep the facts straight.

#4 -- Jinnah was definitely the leader of the hour. And tell you what, he was inside out, a perfect gora with his three piece suits, his Rolls Royce, and his mannerism and command of English. Goras saluted him. Now tell me who salutes a slave? Please tell me?

Even now we need to emulate Jinnah inside out. That's what I am saying in my humble way.


#5 -- Leaders are born and leaders die when their time comes. Jinnah's time came and he was gone. Sure we had issues at the very top leadership, but believe you me, Gen A provided excellent leadership at the middle level and and the lower level. While the leaders at the very top did the kushti and wrestling and they always do, our middle and lower management kept on chugging along.

Our roads were clean, our electricity was on, our trains ran on time, our PIA was known world over for its performance, our colleges and universities produced top notch graduates who were respected and admired world over. Now tell me who was managing all that? Gen. Ayub? Heck no. It was Gen A and its able leaders who did all that.

So I do not blame but appreciate what Gen A did for us.


for #6,7 please see #5.


peace to you, peace to all

 

[Anotherangle]

deleted format mistake

 

[FaujHistorian]

I will have to post this link once again then i guess..

Virtual Bangladesh : History : Economic Exploitation

It says that:

East Pakistan blame three instruments of the Central Government for their plight:-

Pakistan's scant investible resources, plus foreign aid, are directed unduly to the development of West Pakistan - to the comparative neglect of East Pakistan
In particular, East Pakistan's foreign trade earning are diverted to finance imports for West Pakistan.
Economic policy favors West Pakistan at the expense of East Pakistan. Specifically, tariffs, import controls, and industrial licensing compel East Pakistan to purchase commodities from West Pakistan which, but for the controls could be obtained more cheaply in world markets.

From 1948-60 East Pakistan's export earnings had been 70%, but its share of import earnings was only 25%.
A sizable net transfer of resources had taken place from East to West Pakistan. The report states that, if allowance is made for the undervaluation of foreign exchange in terms of Pakistan's domestic currency, the total transfer from East to West Pakistan over the period 1948/49-1968/69 was Rs 31,000,000,000 [1971 terms]. Using the then exchange rate of Rs 11.90 to the dollar, this worked out to 2.6 thousand million dollars in 1971 terms.


Now coming to mathematics...
If the export earnings of East Pakistan was to the tune of 70% of the total;
Budget allocation(starting at 35% and going to 45%) even to the tune of 45% does not make much a good sales pitch...
If they were earning 70%; budget allocation ideally should have been ~ 70%...

But that is not actually possible nor it is a good thing to do...
It will be like asking 6% of total budgetary allocation for Mumbai itself as it contributes ~6% to India's' GDP...
And cities like mine will never get a new road ever..!!

Still I dont think E. Pakistan ever got its fair share...
Jahan aag hai wahin se dhua nikalta hai...

Doctor sahib,

What is "import earning" What does it mean in the context of E. Pakistan? What was the export earning?

And how does it relate to annual budget.

My question was simple.

If you have 100 dollars to spend in a joint family system with two brothers.

Brother A gets 40 dollars, and the B gets 60 dollars.

Brother A complains that he is not getting the same. So he needs more. And puts forwards a justification.

1. Brother A brings home 70 dollars but gets only 40. Is that what you are saying? If so what are the basis for this?

2. Brother A brings home 50 dollars but gets only 40. Is that what you are saying? What are the basis for this?



Please do some of your own math. I can copy and paste from any place. But I should do some of my own calculations too?


Thank you.

 

[Anotherangle]

I like the way you put it. Bravo.

OK. I am not from Niaz Gen, and I am too old to be your gen.

So call me the Gen B.

Gen A. Niaz

Gen C. You my dear jr. think tank


The question you ask from Gen A. should really be directed to both Gen A and Gen B of Pak.


OK, you have read my posts, so you know I go off into deep end. So I'll spare you from that "agony".

The simple answer to where Pakistan is and why it is?


"We stopped working" for our money. That's all.


See the generation that was around 1940s was in fact trained and raised during British raj. You can call the Raj whatever you want to. But they did instill the concept of duty, and discipline, and above all pant shirt (or pant suit if the weather allowed it).

So in the 40s and 50s and 60s, Pakistani urban elite of Lahore and Karachi wore pant shirt pant suits, and did their duty. Teachers taught, laborers labored, factory owners built factories, and bankers banked and protected money of their account holders.

This was all due to the concepts of duty, discipline, and honor instilled in us by our traditions and British rule.

While the pant suits worked to build the nation, Mullahs did what they do now. they wore shalwar kameez, issued fatwas and created anarchy. But the country moved on. our pant suites worked for Britishers first, then for Americans. FYI Our pant suit wearing bankers set up banks all the way to South America. We worked hard, we earned money for an honest day of work.

Then came my generation. The Gen. B. 70s and 80s was tumultuous time, but then which time is not tumultuous. you tell me.

We didn't realize this. Under the incorrect understanding of Iqbal and Faiz, we let go of pant suit, wore Mullah Shalwar. And guess what? our sense of duty was gone, Teachers no longer tought, they indoctrinated, laborers stopped laboring, factory owners got kicked out of their factories, and government took over banks and took money out of them to distribute among PPP commerades as if the money belong to the mai baap of the party and not the account holders.


Suddenly Islam was in vogue, and everyone wore Islamic dress. Suddenly there was no difference bettween Mullah the anarchist, and the city dwelling duty officer. They all were the same. Everyone in one line. Aik he suff may kharay ho ga-ay Mahmood and the one f'd by Mahmood. Everyone said Allaho Akbar. No one had sense of duty. You do what your uniform does. Pant suits meant work in modern office, shalwar meant sleep on dirt and in dark hujra.



And guess what? the country went to the dog $hit. We all now sleep in darkened hujras, we all shout load shedding hai hai. But we refuse to realize that shalwar kameez is in our head, and until we get rid of it, we will not see the light.


So my dear jr. think tank from Gen C, if you want to change Pakistan, then do not do what Gen B did. Find Gen B and kill them including me.

And then faithfully copy the Gen. A. Wear pant suit, burn down the shalwar kameez (or wear only as night suit) and resurrect sense of duty and work ethic as it was prevalent in Gen A as taught by Goras and then Americans.

And once you put on the pinstriped suit, do not allow Shalwar Kameez Mullahs in your offices and your factories and your banks. Why because they belong to the mosques only. keep your office and your factory religion-$hit free and Communist-$hit free, but filled with sense of duty, sense of honor, and sense of commitment.

And soon you will see Pakistan will be for you the Gen C and D, what it used to be for Gen. A. the Niaz generation.


There is hope afterall. Don't you think?


peace to you. peace to all.

Dear Nostalgic friends, the period you call the golden one is a permanent thorn in Pakistan's heart that cannot be taken out. Your Gen. A is responsible for most heinous crimes against the nation of Pakistan; just count:
no constitution for 9 years
no political/ civil culture developed
no solution to kashmir issue even after the support of whole world
64/65 war when the economy was thriving
attitudes and policies that lead to disaster of 1971
blunders that lead to biggest surrender of army in last 67 years
3 million people (of all races) massacred in east Pakistan
sindh forest bombed and ethnic violence started
failed policy of socialist economy that lead to the disaster that followed.
the man most responsible for the debacle became your prime minister and saviors
I tell you another recipe of going into the golden period today: tune into movie channel, do not read any uncensored newspapers and chat with your children that will transport you to another golden period of your life because that was what people used to do in golden 60s and 70s.
Is this Gen. A your hero? But not mine nor can be of any sane individual
What a shallow thinking style!

 

[FaujHistorian]

..
Dear nostalgic friends, the period you call the golden one is a permanent thorn in Pakistan's heart that cannot be taken out. Your Gen. A is responsible for most heinous crimes against the nation of Pakistan; just count:
no constitution for 9 years
no political/ civil culture developed
no solution to kashmir issue even after the support of whole world
64/65 war when the economy was thriving
attitudes and policies that lead to disaster of 1971
blunders that lead to biggest surrender of army in last 67 years
3 million people (of all races) massacred in east Pakistan
sindh forest bombed and ethnic violence started
failed policy of socialist economy that lead to the disaster that followed.
the man most responsible for the debacle became your prime minister and saviors
I tell you another recipe of going into the golden period today: tune into movie channel, do not read any uncensored newspapers and chat with your children that will transport you to another golden period of your life because that was what people used to do in golden 60s and 70s.


Is this Gen. A your hero? But not mine nor can be of any sane individual
What a shallow thinking style!

Every country of our time had issues. Some more and some less.

It is not that we had issues, it is what we did despite of those issues. Please remember that.


And all this discussion is going on to answer specific questions by no less than a Jr. Think Tank "Armstrong", please remember that too.

We all look for things we like. We can look for $hite and we'll get it.

We can look for roses and we'll get them too.

You have a point about the leadership at the very top.

But believe you me the gen A provided excellent leadership at the middle level and and the lower level. While the leaders at the very top did the kushti and wrestling and they always do, our middle and lower management kept on chugging along.

Our teachers used their own money to keep the classes going in schools, our roads were clean, our electricity was on, our trains ran on time, our PIA was known world over for its performance, our colleges and universities produced top notch graduates who were respected and admired world over. Now tell me who was managing all that? Gen. Ayub? Heck no. It was Gen A and its able leaders who did all that.

So I do not blame but appreciate what Gen A did for us.

Was that time Jannat paradise on earth, certainly not, but we had going pretty darn good. See my examples above.


Thank you

 

[FaujHistorian]

Taliban is Pakistan, Pakistan is Taliban. Pakistan will never and should never abandon Taliban. Strategic depth is more important than any thing. Even Sir Jinnah talked about how Strategically Pakistan was located. When Taliban is most Strategic weapon Pakistan is holding then how Pakistan is expected to a abandon it.
Pakistanis should always wary of such Jewish propaganda pieces.

Indian goes for "Strategic Encirclement" and sets up its tent in Afghanistan since 1947.

Pakistan goes for "Strategic depth" and sets up taliboobies in Afghanistan since 1979.

Both India and Pakistan are wrong. As it their "Strategic Shenanigans" destroy Afghanistan and in the process destroy both Pakistan (first) and then India (second).


peace to you. Peace to all,

 

[Anotherangle]

Every country of our time had issues. Some more and some less.

It is not that we had issues, it is what we did despite of those issues. Please remember that.


And all this discussion is going on to answer specific questions by no less than a Jr. Think Tank "Armstrong", please remember that too.

We all look for things we like. We can look for $hite and we'll get it.

We can look for roses and we'll get them too.

You have a point about the leadership at the very top.

But believe you me the gen A provided excellent leadership at the middle level and and the lower level. While the leaders at the very top did the kushti and wrestling and they always do, our middle and lower management kept on chugging along.

Our teachers used their own money to keep the classes going in schools, our roads were clean, our electricity was on, our trains ran on time, our PIA was known world over for its performance, our colleges and universities produced top notch graduates who were respected and admired world over. Now tell me who was managing all that? Gen. Ayub? Heck no. It was Gen A and its able leaders who did all that.

So I do not blame but appreciate what Gen A did for us.

Was that time Jannat paradise on earth, certainly not, but we had going pretty darn good. See my examples above.


Thank you

It was because the top leadership was made of lords/nawabs ; at least they were not involved in mass corruption, like today, so the middle class had to have a clean job; as soon as the top leadership got involved in corruption, your Gen. A joined in with full sincerity and competence. That Gen A (or b,c,d,e) is bourgeois and will always follow the top leadership.
[By the way You are giving out some achievements of AYUB era IN CHARITY TO GEENRAL A]

All the problem including law and order (which is the responsibility of police) are direct or indirect result of corruption; unless you eradicate the corrupt culture, there is no hope at all!!?!
Thank you, regards and best wishes

 

[anilindia]

"SAVE TALIBAN OR SAVE PAKISTAN" that decision has to taken by Pakistan army. Till now they are choosing first one....