Saudi source: Turkish bases cannot be allowed in the kingdom

[Avicenna]

Excellent post. It's ultimately all political and about preserving the status quo i.e. Staying in power...For the Gulf arabs and Egypt.

For the West, it's about the money, and dependence. Almost like a drug dealer.

Excellent post. It's ultimately all political and about preserving the status quo i.e. Staying in power...For the Gulf arabs and Egypt.

For the West, it's about the money, and dependence. Almost like a drug dealer.

But probably more about the money.

To be fair, the US de-railed the Israeli Lavi as well.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Brother,

No need to call me Sir; just call me brother.

Both F-16 and F-15 have excellent airframes at base level, designed for great maneuverability and g-forces. But how capable an aircraft is - comes down to its onboard set-of-components comprising of sensor suite, engine and armaments.

F-15 series aircraft are equipped with two engines to achieve superior speed and range, superior sensor suite to detect threats from vast distances and longer-range weapon systems to kill opponents before they can close the gap - than F-16 series aircraft and/or MMRCA on average.

F-15 series aircraft are specialized for missions (strictly 'air-to-air' operations [OR] strictly 'air-to-ground' operations); they are literally configured and equipped with most capable components (available) in accordance with their mission priorities. Conversely, F-16 series aircraft are multi-role but easy to learn and cost-effective.

However, F-16 and F-15 can be customized in accordance with needs of the customers and their disparity level may vary accordingly. The latest F-16V (Block-72) is a major leap from earlier variants in capabilities because it is equipped with components that were previously exclusive to F-15 series aircraft. So there's that.

If you are expecting a comprehensive technical comparison, then I would need some time to create it for you. You will have to wait for it.

The F-16 has the best sustained turn rate, losing less energy via induced drag and having more thrust to recover. The F-15 has a sustained turn rate of 18º , lower than the 21º of the F-16. So in a dogfight, F16 wins..

F15 is an amazing jet, as it can take more weapons, has more fuel to go to longer distances and has more speed to reach hearly to any started conflict. But this is what Russians talk about about their airplanes to sell too.

Before, having bigger airplanes meant having bigger radar and having more capabilities especially about beyond visual range war. But, nowadays, having AESA radar made this concept just none sense..

Its considered only 28 % kill rate for air to air missiles fired beyond visual range, even if you consider the jet fired drones (which turkey manufacture from its jet engine to every single part of it) you will end up in dog fight (imagine after f15 finish their missiles against drones, now it will be Turkish time to fire missiles) where F16 is the clear winner. In every document you can see it from US dogfight experience.

Btw, I dont want a fight between two nation, dont get it wrong.

 

[Avicenna]

The F-16 has the best sustained turn rate, losing less energy via induced drag and having more thrust to recover. The F-15 has a sustained turn rate of 18º , lower than the 21º of the F-16. So in a dogfight, F16 wins..

F15 is an amazing jet, as it can take more weapons, has more fuel to go to longer distances and has more speed to reach hearly to any started conflict. But this is what Russians talk about about their airplanes to sell too.

Before, having bigger airplanes meant having bigger radar and having more capabilities especially about beyond visual range war. But, nowadays, having AESA radar made this concept just none sense..

Its considered only 28 % kill rate for air to air missiles fired beyond visual range, even if you consider the jet fired drones (which turkey manufacture from its jet engine to every single part of it) you will end up in dog fight (imagine after f15 finish their missiles against drones, now it will be Turkish time to fire missiles) where F16 is the clear winner. In every document you can see it from US dogfight experience.

Btw, I dont want a fight between two nation, dont get it wrong.

In this hypothetical SA vs Turkey conflict its more than just the F-15 vs F-16 question.

That's comparing apples to oranges because of factors other than the platforms themselves.

In comparing the apples to apples , I wonder what the experience is in the USAF with DACT between the two types? Anybody in the know care to comment? @gambit

 

[The SC]

Turkey relaised their depency to USA will never end to secure their regimes. I said their regimes ,not their country because noone in Ummah can imagine a war against a state that has Macca and Medine.Turkey wants to end KSA's and Others depency to USA on defence.
Why we need their independence on their policies? because their politics objectives are to protect their regimes and that became dangerous for other countries. They became partners of USA to re-design middle east.USA uses them also gets their money.
For example supporting of coup or kurdish terrorist never gains anything to UAE and to KSA for the future.Turkey has changed its mentality and declared that he will fight against terrorism on their sources and MIT got permission to operations on abroad.
Most of terrorism activities related with outside and its not only for Turkey for most of other countries also.I dont want KSA became a direct target of Turkey but not the same for UAE. If they have really supported coup they must take what they deserve.

first KSA was not accused of supporting the coup in Turkey..second UAE was falsely accused, because there is a video of the Turkish ambassador to the UAE who was prising UAE stance against the coup! so go figure..
Turkey might want to help other Muslim countries get out of the US grip.. mostly concerning weapons, yet Turkey itself is still sourcing its weapons like the long range air defence systems from abroad.. and it is only one example among hundreds; the Tank engines is another good example!. So it is very subjective and far from being realistic.. Turkey can not provide KSA or UAE with Patriot and THAAD like systems, nor can it provide an equivalent to the P-8, or surveillance satellites as the US can.. but on the other fronts where Turkey has tested and proven systems, there were many JVs signed with the GCC members..which is reality based on pragmatism.. Also there is no redesign of the middle east.. Syria and Iraq's crisis are mainly internal matters now, no one wants to split Syria or Iraq, but the Kurds are a card hold by mostly the Europeans to pressure Turkey and that has nothing to do with KSA or the UAE..So to the contrary of what some people like to think KSA in particular and the rest of the GCC (minus Qatar) want to stabilise the middle east and the best example is Yemen.. And some will come here and start ranting and spreading falsehood that KSA killed 18, 000 Yemenis, an other lies concerning the stabilisation of Yemen..while forgetting or pretending their blindness about the 500 000 Syrians they have ganged up against and killed and the millions of refugees as a result.. this wouldn't have come about in the wildest dreams of Usrael, Thus it is clear and obvious that the ones behind the Syrian war are the real Zionist proxies, and pointing their fingers towards others is a move to hide their faces..

Agreed brother but Turkish F16s are also great except for range their sensors are quite at par with f15s ... So a fighter with 90% of capablity in good hands can easily get upper hand ...

Remember difference between readiness of KSA and Turkish pilots are huge ... For example Pakistan pilots with inferrior Arab fighter aircrafts overcame Isreali superior fighters whereas Israelis are also formidable pilots so Turkish standards are somewhere close to PAF but on the contrary Arab pilots are just ordinary pilots ...

While pakistani pilots downed 2 or 3 Usraeli pilots.. Egyptian pilots alone downed more than 100 Usraeli advanced US fighters with their best pilots and only with the Mig 21, another 200 Usraeli fighters were downed by SAMs.. So Arab pilots my friend are not just some ordinary pilots, they are really extraordinary given the fact that they were fighting the US best air warfare technologies directly through Usrael, and all they had was some second class Russian technologies, since Russia refused to sell them its most advanced fighters in that era..this is a good indication of Arab prowess in warfare, they have proven much creativity in using extraordinary tactics with a small and limited capacity fighter against some of the most sophisticated US warplanes..These are facts to meditate on, far from some ego pumping..

 

[mustafa erkan]

first KSA was not accused of supporting the coup in Turkey.

You missunderstood I talked about NATO

Not agree with you.Not only ME but also Nort Africa re-design began.It is talked at NATO meetings and Turkish officer left the meetings years ago.

 

[The SC]

Do you think KSA will put there country in danger for Pak India war ? .

It went much further, it has helped Pakistan to never be subdued by India in any kind of war.. real honest Pakistanis know this, the rest should learn about it..

You missunderstood I talked about NATO

Not agree with you.Not only ME but also Nort Africa re-design began.It is talked at NATO meetings and Turkish officer left the meetings years ago.

Maybe you can enlighten us a bit further about the whole Arab world re-design.. We are all ears..

 

[The Accountant]

first KSA was not accused of supporting the coup in Turkey..second UAE was falsely accused, because there is a video of the Turkish ambassador to the UAE who was prising UAE stance against the coup! so go figure..
Turkey might want to help other Muslim countries get out of the US grip,, mostly concerning weapons, yet Turkey itself is still sourcing its weapons like the long range air defence systems from abroad.. and it is only one example among hundreds the Tank engines is another good example!. So it is very subjective and far from being realistic.. Turkey can not provide KSA or UAE with Patriot and THAAD like systems, nor can it provide an equivalent to the P-8, or surveillance satellites as the US can.. but on the other fronts where Turkey has tested and proven systems, there were many JVs signed with the GCC members..which is reality based on pragmatism.. Also there is no redesign of the middle east.. Syria and Iraq's crisis are mainly internal matters now, no one wants to split Syria or Iraq, but the Kurds are a card hold by mostly the Europeans to pressure Turkey and that has nothing to do with KSA or the UAE..So to the contrary of what some people like to think KSA in particular and the rest of the GCC (minus Qatar) want to stabilise the middle east and the best example is Yemen.. And some will come here and start ranting and spreading falsehood that KSA killed 18, 000 Yemenis, an other lies concerning the stabilisation of Yemen..while forgetting or pretending their blindness about the 500 000 Syrians they have ganged up against and killed and the millions of refugees as a result.. this wouldn't have come about in the wildest dreams of Usrael, Thus it is clear and obvious that the ones behind the Syrian war are the real Zionist proxies, and pointing their fingers towards others is a move to hide their faces..


While pakistani pilots downed 2 or 3 Usraeli pilots.. Egyptian alone pilots downed more than 100 Usraeli advanced US fighters with their best pilots and only with the Mig 21, another 200 Usraeli fighters were downed by SAMs.. So Arab pilots my friend are not just some ordinary pilots, they are really extraordinary given the fact that they were fighting the US best air warfare technologies directly through Usrael, and all they had was some second class Russian technologies, since Russia refused to sell them its most advanced weapons in that era..this is a good indication of Arab prowess in warfare, they have proven much creativity in using extraordinary tactics with a small and limited capacity fighter against some of the most sophisticated US warplanes..These are facts to meditate on, far from some ego pumping..

Can you please quote me source of your claim ... last time i checked arabs lost badly against israel ... loses of aircrafts were 4 times in comparison to israel ... they not eventually lost but also lost territory ...

Regarding aircrafts .. mig 21 and mireage 5 were top on the line at the time and both were fighting from arab side whereas on israel the only superior fighter was mirrage 3 ...

Lastly Pakistan score was not 2 or 3 ... it was 10 so better keep your score right ...

Regarding they are good at nothing ... if they had been some fighting capability then Israel would not have been there ... they are good at just killing there own beothers and sisters and that too with proxy war and through USA ...

Al khumani and al sauds are the worst thing happened to muslims in recent past ...

It went much further, it has helped Pakistan to never be subdued by India in any kind war.. real honest Pakistanis know this, the rest should learn about it..


Maybe you can enlighten us a bit further about the whole Arab world re-design.. We are all ears..

Sir that days are gone as per recent past Modi received highest covilian award from saudi king himself whereas UAE armed forces praded at streets of new dehli in shoulders with indians ...

 

[The SC]

Can you please quote me source of your claim ... last time i checked arabs lost badly against israel ... loses of aircrafts were 4 times in comparison to israel ... they not eventually lost but also lost territory ...

Regarding aircrafts .. mig 21 and mireage 5 were top on the line at the time and both were fighting from arab side whereas on israel the only superior fighter was mirrage 3 ...

Lastly Pakistan score was not 2 or 3 ... it was 10 so better keep your score right ...

Regarding they are good at nothing ... if they had been some fighting capability then Israel would not have been there ... they are good at just killing there own beothers and sisters and that too with proxy war and through USA ...

Al khumani and al sauds are the worst thing happened to muslims in recent past ...

It is obvious that you lack much knowledge about the 1973 war, we are talking about the the F-4 mainly plus the Mirages.. maybe you are talking about the 1967 war, where mostly Egyptian Migs were destroyed on the ground! I am talking about 1968 a few months after the 67' war and 1973..

Can you please quote me source of your claim ... last time i checked arabs lost badly against israel ... loses of aircrafts were 4 times in comparison to israel ... they not eventually lost but also lost territory ...

Regarding aircrafts .. mig 21 and mireage 5 were top on the line at the time and both were fighting from arab side whereas on israel the only superior fighter was mirrage 3 ...

Lastly Pakistan score was not 2 or 3 ... it was 10 so better keep your score right ...

Regarding they are good at nothing ... if they had been some fighting capability then Israel would not have been there ... they are good at just killing there own beothers and sisters and that too with proxy war and through USA ...

Al khumani and al sauds are the worst thing happened to muslims in recent past ...


Sir that days are gone as per recent past Modi received highest covilian award from saudi king himself whereas UAE armed forces praded at streets of new dehli in shoulders with indians ...

Talk about the 67 defeat.. a few months later in 68 Egypt started pounding Usrael day and night..Ha ha ha!
no more Uraeli lies of loss of 102 fighter aircrafts.. the truth documented is a loss of more than 326 in 73 and much more since if we count since 68..

You have never been to a full fledged war like the Arabs did many times ..not against Usrael alone, but against the Brits and France with Usrael in 1956, 67 was Brits and France behind the scenes and 1973 was a full fledged overt and covert support by the US.. Pakistan never faced such Western animosity so I do not blame you for not understanding the Middle eastern conflict in much of its aspects..

Modi got a green ribbon, you call that the highest award.. civilian yes, because there are a lot of Indians working in KSA, but you should look at the Gold Award to Trump for comparison..

 

[pts_m_h_2016]

Excellent post. It's ultimately all political and about preserving the status quo i.e. Staying in power...For the Gulf arabs and Egypt.

For the West, it's about the money, and dependence. Almost like a drug dealer.



But probably more about the money.

To be fair, the US de-railed the Israeli Lavi as well.

Israeli Lavi was just an F-16 with canards . Most components were imported.

Israeli Kfir and Nesher were also Mirage 5 fighters - from France. Goes to show French and Western superiority of intellect and civilization.

 

[bsruzm]

Well the wheel is turning... few centuries back... it was the EU who were buying from the Ottoman empire...

_______
Funny days ahead.

 

[The Accountant]

It is obvious that you lack much knowledge about the 1973 war, we are talking about the the F-4 mainly plus the Mirages.. maybe you are talking about the 1967 war, where al Egyptian Migs were destroyed on the ground! I am talking about 1968 a few months after the 67' war and 1973..

It is obvious that you lack much knowledge about the 1973 war, we are talking about the the F-4 mainly plus the Mirages.. maybe you are talking about the 1967 war, where mostly Egyptian Migs were destroyed on the ground! I am talking about 1968 a few months after the 67' war and 1973..


Talk about the 67 defeat.. a few months later in 68 Egypt started pounding Usrael day and night..Ha ha ha!
no more Uraeli lies of loss of 102 fighter aircrafts.. the truth documented is a loss of more than 326 in 73 and much more since if we count since 68..

You have never been to a full fledged war like the Arabs did many times ..not against Usrael alone, but against the Brits and France with Usrael in 1956, 67 was Brits and France behind the scenes and 1973 was a full fledged overt and covert support by the US.. Pakistan never faced such Western animosity so I do not blame you for not understanding the Middle eastern conflict in much of its aspects..

Modi got a green ribbon, you call that the highest award.. civilian yes, because there are a lot of Indians working in KSA, but you should look at the Gold Award to Trump for comparison..

F4 phantoms were not highly superrior to migs except for range they had nothing superrior ... both were supersonic and armed with heat seaking air to air missiles ... infact mig 21s were very good interceptors in comparison to any other fighter evident from the fact that they are still being operated while phantom are non existent ...

Plus can you tell me how you found arabs even on par with israelis when larger arab forces of egypt and syria with support from all other arab countries lost the war

 

[c-dome1]

The way that Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states aid Syrian (arab) refugees.

It is bullsh**.

These Middle Eastern camel riders think that any propaganda drivel by their mad dictator Erdogan will turn out to be magically true.

They themselves do not have a clue what is network centric warfare.

It is nothing novel, nothing unique. Turkey is nowhere in this except fantasy.

yes they think they advance like the superpowers

 

[The Accountant]

It is obvious that you lack much knowledge about the 1973 war, we are talking about the the F-4 mainly plus the Mirages.. maybe you are talking about the 1967 war, where mostly Egyptian Migs were destroyed on the ground! I am talking about 1968 a few months after the 67' war and 1973..


Talk about the 67 defeat.. a few months later in 68 Egypt started pounding Usrael day and night..Ha ha ha!
no more Uraeli lies of loss of 102 fighter aircrafts.. the truth documented is a loss of more than 326 in 73 and much more since if we count since 68..

You have never been to a full fledged war like the Arabs did many times ..not against Usrael alone, but against the Brits and France with Usrael in 1956, 67 was Brits and France behind the scenes and 1973 was a full fledged overt and covert support by the US.. Pakistan never faced such Western animosity so I do not blame you for not understanding the Middle eastern conflict in much of its aspects..

Modi got a green ribbon, you call that the highest award.. civilian yes, because there are a lot of Indians working in KSA, but you should look at the Gold Award to Trump for comparison..

Which ful fledged wars are you talking about ... a tiny israel against egypt, jordan, syria, iraq, lebanon and ksa and still not only Israel survived but expand the territory ... you call it a victory ... which dream world you live man ?

We can see that how good are arabs that they cant take on their against some drug eddicted houthis and they have to establish an alliance of countries ...

Arabs are just lucky due to oil resources and blessing of uncle SAM ... irony is when saudi arab threatens qatari arab after trumps advice and qatari arab in response run again to same trump and offer him a tribute of 12 billion dollars to save him ...

I dont remember when last time any arab did something remarkable in the world politics except for stabbing in the back to own turkish muslim brothers ...

Regarding Pakistan ... we had 3 full nlown and one limited war with 5 times bigger enemy i.e. india ... in first war in 1948 we lebrated half of kashmir .. in second we caltured significant area and our bravery is part of history ... in 3rd we got divided but even in that we did surrender due to russian backing but still we did make sure that not to let the enemy have the land and it gets to our brother .. and the reason was simply we did not had access to that land it shared border with the enemy and was far away from us ...

We were the prime plaanner behind collapse of soviet union in afghanistan ...

We are the only country that defeated terrorism and irony is you need our general to lead your army still you think Pakistan is not cqpable ... this false ego of yours will destroy you ... start respecting others as your oil is not forever ...

 

[c-dome1]

Which ful fledged wars are you talking about ... a tiny israel against egypt, jordan, syria, iraq, lebanon and ksa and still not only Israel survived but expand the territory ... you call it a victory ... which dream world you live man ?

We can see that how good are arabs that they cant take on their against some drug eddicted houthis and they have to establish an alliance of countries ...

Arabs are just lucky due to oil resources and blessing of uncle SAM ... irony is when saudi arab threatens qatari arab after trumps advice and qatari arab in response run again to same trump and offer him a tribute of 12 billion dollars to save him ...

I dont remember when last time any arab did something remarkable in the world politics except for stabbing in the back to own turkish muslim brothers ...

Regarding Pakistan ... we had 3 full nlown and one limited war with 5 times bigger enemy i.e. india ... in first war in 1948 we lebrated half of kashmir .. in second we caltured significant area and our bravery is part of history ... in 3rd we got divided but even in that we did surrender due to russian backing but still we did make sure that not to let the enemy have the land and it gets to our brother .. and the reason was simply we did not had access to that land it shared border with the enemy and was far away from us ...

We were the prime plaanner behind collapse of soviet union in afghanistan ...

We are the only country that defeated terrorism and irony is you need our general to lead your army still you think Pakistan is not cqpable ... this false ego of yours will destroy you ... start respecting others as your oil is not forever ...

whats true is ture

 

[The SC]

Can you please quote me source of your claim ... last time i checked arabs lost badly against israel ... loses of aircrafts were 4 times in comparison to israel ... they not eventually lost but also lost territory ...

Regarding aircrafts .. mig 21 and mireage 5 were top on the line at the time and both were fighting from arab side whereas on israel the only superior fighter was mirrage 3 ...

Lastly Pakistan score was not 2 or 3 ... it was 10 so better keep your score right ...

Regarding they are good at nothing ... if they had been some fighting capability then Israel would not have been there ... they are good at just killing there own beothers and sisters and that too with proxy war and through USA ...

Al khumani and al sauds are the worst thing happened to muslims in recent past ...


Sir that days are gone as per recent past Modi received highest covilian award from saudi king himself whereas UAE armed forces praded at streets of new dehli in shoulders with indians ...

Well, you are showing too much ignorance here, about every subject you are trying to talk about:
First there is no tiny Usrael; millions of its citizens are trained for war.. you understand ..millions.. plus all the weapons they need from uncle SAM.. for which Usrael is a red line..
Second your WE, we, we, will bring you nothing, it is just a sign of egoism and ignorance, misconceptions and arrogance.. without the Arabs you 'll still be out of Islam that gives you that courage and god know what else.. facing India is like facing the Europeans and the US for you? get up from your sleep and try to think rationally.. leave the emotions aside, Pakistan Armed forces and personnel are very good, but never let arrogance guide your mind, they do not, that is why they prepare for war to insure peace, and most other nations do the same..
Irony in your ignorance is that General Sharif will lead a Muslim counter-terrorist organisation of about 30 000 men..and you are talking about leading Arab armies.. how stupid one can get.. you have too much poison in your mind to start spitting your venom against Arabs.. nothing could destroy the Arabs, not the Roman empire, byzantine empire, Persian empire, nor the crusades or colonialists, so better be worried about destroying yourself with that poison in your mind, jealousy will just worsen it..

So please do not quote me anymore..