Saudi Prince Khaled makes progress with F-35 deal

[Philosopher]

The massed application of these weapons will produce substantial paralysis in any target system, thus providing a decisive advantage in the conduct of Electronic Combat, Offensive Counter Air and Strategic Air Attack.


https://defence-blog.com/news/saudi...apon-using-ukrainian-supplied-technology.html

Right, exactly. The key part is "The massed application ". The massed application of bombs could lead to much more of a severe blow to the enemy than such a system. Your mass damage regarding this system involves the assumption you could deliver them in those numbers. The potency of a nuclear EMP is precisely the damage it causes and the ease of which it can be achieved. A single nuke detonated high in the atmosphere could devastate even the largest cities. Now, how many of these non-nuclear systems would you need to do the same damage? There is simply no comparison here.

 

[Genghis khan1]

That is long gone now..KSA was innocented of that.. do you live on this planet..

Catch the drift man... do I really have to break everything down at a 10 year old level.

KSA losing access to everything they invested, with a single piece of Paper filed by a foreign citizen, if this don’t ring a bell than nothing will.

 

[The SC]

Catch the drift man... do I really have to break everything down at a 10 year old level.

KSA losing access to everything they invested, with a single piece of Paper filed by a foreign citizen, if this don’t ring a bell than nothing will.

You are still living 10 years back..told you KSA was innocented by US courts..So keep your dark wet dreams for you..

Right, exactly. The key part is "The massed application ". The massed application of bombs could lead to much more of a severe blow to the enemy than such a system. Your mass damage regarding this system involves the assumption you could deliver them in those numbers. The potency of a nuclear EMP is precisely the damage it causes and the ease of which it can be achieved. A single nuke detonated high in the atmosphere could devastate even the largest cities. Now, how many of these non-nuclear systems would you need to do the same damage? There is simply no comparison here.

Ask yourself how many military sites you have..and how many bases and command centers..

 

[Philosopher]

Ask yourself how many military sites you have..and how many bases and command centers..

Forgetting the simple fact most command centres will be hardened against EMPs, you're basically emphasising my point with your question. Lets take Iran as an example. It has over 4000 air defence sites alone, never-mind the hundreds of missiles sites and even "missile cities" (all underground anyway, as are all major command centres). I am not even counting other bases etc. Like I told you earlier, given how many of these EMP systems you'd need to deliver to be effective, you're much better off just using regular bombs. At least that way, systems which are protected against EMPs can be kinetically destroyed. These non-nuclear EMP systems have their uses, but they're much more limited than you're thinking.

 

[The SC]

Forgetting the simple fact most command centres will be hardened against EMPs, you're basically emphasising my point with your question. Lets take Iran as an example. It has over 4000 air defence sites alone, never-mind the hundreds of missiles sites and even "missile cities" (all underground anyway, as are all major command centres). I am not even counting other bases etc. Like I told you earlier, given how many of these EMP systems you'd need to deliver to be effective, you're much better off just using regular bombs. At least that way, systems which are protected against EMPs can be kinetically destroyed. These non-nuclear EMP systems have their uses, but they're much more limited than you're thinking.

They might be limited.. but to what..that is the real Question..
If they can take out or disturb bases and underground facilities that is already a deterrent..Since nothing including reinforced concrete can stop microwave waves.. all those underground bases and missile sites electronics are vulnerable to this kind of bombs..

 

[Philosopher]

They might be limited.. but to what..that is the real Question..

Their area of effect is their limitation. They're one of those systems that appear potent on the face of it but when you look deeper into the practicalities, you'll end up sticking with the trusted kinetic systems. Don't get me wrong, there are clearly situations you could use them, but they're quite specialised. They're no silver bullet.

If they can take out or disturb bases and underground facilities that is already a deterrent

If you can hit a base with any system you could establish that same level of deterrence, it's not specific to EMP.

..Since nothing including reinforced concrete can't stop microwave waves.. all those underground bases and missile sites electronics are vulnerable to this kind of bombs..

The science behind protecting against EMP is actually very straightforward. Even lay people these days are aware of "Faraday cage". Many militaries are "EMP vary". You can be assured their crucial military assets are hardened against such EMP systems.

 

[Aspen]

The science behind protecting against EMP is actually very straightforward. Even lay people these days are aware of "Faraday cage". Many militaries are "EMP vary". You can be assured their crucial military assets are hardened against such EMP systems.

Are you sure about that? Most military assets are not even protected against basic cyber warfare, let alone EMP's.

I don't doubt that its easy to protect a military asset from EMP's but is the concept of an EMP weapon itself even mainstream enough yet for countries to take defensive measures against it?

 

[Philosopher]

Are you sure about that? Most military assets are not even protected against basic cyber warfare, let alone EMP's.

They're aware, as they are with cyber. The question is one of action. What actions have they taken. From my "studies", I got the picture of mainly the command centres (of mid-large sized militaries) being protected. Expanding it throughout the military is not easy, and certainly not cheap. There was talks in the US about protecting their power grids but even they've not done much with it.

I don't doubt that its easy to protect a military asset from EMP's

but is the concept of an EMP weapon itself even mainstream enough yet for countries to take defensive measures against it?

EMP's are nothing new. In terms of concept, you can find even lay people making simple EMP designs. Really anyone with a degree in electronic engineering could in theory put together a design. The science behind it is known very well.

 

[The SC]

If we were tailoring the positivity/negativity of our comments based on who we're replying to, then we would keep flip flopping from nice comments towards a nation to angry ones. You'll come across genuine people here and trolls, so it's best to just remain consistent and not get angry towards a whole nation based on individual comments.



You're not being very fair in your assessment. Iran attacked an American base and it expected a retaliation from the Americans (strongest nation on earth), during that period a few error led to that tragedy. You cannot compare that situation to your conflict with the Houthis. It's not the same thing.

.

I used the 1980's term not randomly. Because the only missiles Iran from the North Koreans was the Scuds in the 80's. Today, the experts believe if there is any cooperation, it is going from Iran to North Korea, not the other way around. In terms quality, Iran is far more advanced than North Korea. For example, compare this new Iranian missiles called Ra'ad 500. This relatively small missile has a range of more than 500km and has pin point accuracy, it is made entirely (body) from carbon fiber. It is far more advanced than anything the Koreans have.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1226478208293441536

But from your comment, it appeared you insinuated Iran missile's today are based on that cooperation, hence why I said that would be true in the 80's. If we're talking about Iran's missile (specifically ballistic) then from design stage to mass production they're indigenously done today.




Let start by saying no one even knows the range of Iranian missiles. Iran just put a satellite in orbit. This is basically an ICBM technology, any missile that can put a satellite in orbit, can put a warhead anywhere on the planet. So I am quite unsure where you're getting your information regarding your missiles having longer ranges.

When it comes to ballistic missiles accuracy is a major determinant, unless we're talking about WMDs. When I say your missiles are relatively old, that includes the fact they have very high CEP. Unless you're using them for WMDsm what is their value?





I have seen intelligence reports that Saudis are working on their missiles force, however we're talking about your specific comment regarding Saudi Arabia being more advanced than Iran in this sector. There is a huge difference between saying Saudis are working on a missile program and that Saudis are more advanced than Iran. Iran has also been developing missile since 30 years and it has much to show for it. Unless you can show me actual quality and quantity aspects, then it is very premature to compare your missiles to Iran. It is extremely unlikely you will have a force close to Iran in terms of for example number. No organisation, intelligence sources etc have made anything close to that statement.



So at best you are importing missiles then? Then how are you comparing your program to something indigenous like Iran's? Like I said earlier, minus your claims on range and payload, you have nothing else to do a proper comparison with. I am more than happy to do a unbiased comparison.



There is only so much you can test underground, unless you have tested the missile system many times, then it will not and cannot go into production.



Many of those attempts were by scud type missiles. The Abqaiq attack was quite a sophisticated attack in terms of planning. The actual system used were quite cheap, i.e UAV's and cheap cruise missiles, but the point of that statement was to show you how defences will not make you immune to attacks. There is always ways around it.



No, but from where would such an attack come to Iran?



And you seriously buy into that excuse?



That's only assuming the next attack will be done with same systems. Like I told you above, the point was to show these defensive systems are all vulnerable.



The true test for these system will come during a full conflict when the other side can fire many missiles simultaneously. In the case of Israel, its most likely Hezbollah, in the case of Saudi Arabia, it will be with a conflict with Iran. I am not surprised that the Saudi defences could intercept the Scuds by the Yemenis. Scuds follow a purely ballistic trajectory. They have no MaRV etc. That missile I showed you above for example (Ra'ad 500) used a MaRV that can "fool" the defences.



According to whom is this the case? The missile program from what we know is actually quite limited. From your own source, both the variety of missiles and quantity is frankly not that impressive. The DF-21 purchase is still cloudy. No information out there. This is exactly why I am quite confused why you not only compare your program to Iran's but boldly say it is much more advanced. Iran, which not only has an impressive variety but very large numbers.

As far as official claims are concerned, minus Iran's own statement, the Americans and Israeli have made it clear Iran has the largest missile force in the region. These are not my claims, but official ones.





In the context of nations, yes, 1/3 is indeed barely. I mean why is that significant in your mind? It's not like we're comparing something the size of Israel to Iran.




Saudi missiles are not only limited in numbers, but the missiles we have proof Saudis have, have very poor CEP. How you think those can cause worse damage than 1000's of Iranians missiles (many of which are highly accurate) is frankly beyond me.



That's a different discussion. However, airforce is much easier to defend against compared to missiles. But I do agree Saudi airforce is more advanced than Irans.



To clarify, I have no interest in a conflict between Iran and any region state. I only commented due to the claims you made regarding Iran's missiles.

Very simply put:

When you have a major sector within your armed forces under the name (Saudi Strategic Missile Force) and when this sector has a center and a private school, from where thousands graduate annually and when these forces have major bases that are more like underground cities that exceed the number of 5 and distributed over the regions of the Kingdom, do not ask about what is KSA missile preparation, but think how any regional enemy will survive the missile waves..

There are more than 50 launchers for DF-3.. the old but potent one against big installations and cities..
The DF-3 (CSS-2) was designed for a nuclear warhead and, therefore, has low accuracy. The unmodified version has a range/ payload of 2,700 km/2,200 kg. (The Military Balance 1989-90, International Institute for Strategic Studies, p. 219). range/payload are of 2,500 km/2,000 kg

DF-21 (CSS-5) solid-fuel, medium-range ballistic missiles _ the numbers are unknown (some reports say more than 400)

Class: Medium-Range Ballistic Missile (MRBM)Range: 2,150 km
Payload: Single warhead, 600 kg
Warhead: 250 or 500 kT nuclear, HE, submunitions

Range of DF-3 and DF-21

The Saudi arsenal is certainly diverse and consists of three more missiles

Here are a few missile bases:

U.S. Confirms Saudi Ballistic Missile Production

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2019-07/news-briefs/us-confirms-saudi-ballistic-missile-production

 

[The SC]

Their area of effect is their limitation. They're one of those systems that appear potent on the face of it but when you look deeper into the practicalities, you'll end up sticking with the trusted kinetic systems. Don't get me wrong, there are clearly situations you could use them, but they're quite specialised. They're no silver bullet.



If you can hit a base with any system you could establish that same level of deterrence, it's not specific to EMP.



The science behind protecting against EMP is actually very straightforward. Even lay people these days are aware of "Faraday cage". Many militaries are "EMP vary". You can be assured their crucial military assets are hardened against such EMP systems.

The most effective defence against electromagnetic bombs is to prevent their delivery by destroying the launch platform or delivery vehicle, as is the case with nuclear weapons. This however may not always be possible, and therefore systems which can be expected to suffer exposure to the electromagnetic weapons effects must be electromagnetically hardened.
The most effective method is to wholly contain the equipment in an electrically conductive enclosure, termed a Faraday cage, which prevents the electromagnetic field from gaining access to the protected equipment. However, most such equipment must communicate with and be fed with power from the outside world, and this can provide entry points via which electrical transients may enter the enclosure and effect damage. While optical fibres address this requirement for transferring data in and out, electrical power feeds remain an ongoing vulnerability..

 

[Philosopher]

Very simply put:

When you have a major sector within your armed forces under the name (Saudi Strategic Missile Force) and when this sector has a center and a private school, from where thousands graduate annually and when these forces have major bases that are more like underground cities that exceed the number of 5 and distributed over the regions of the Kingdom, do not ask about what is KSA missile preparation, but think how any regional enemy will survive the missile waves..

There are more than 50 launchers for DF-3.. the old but potent one against big installations and cities..
The DF-3 (CSS-2) was designed for a nuclear warhead and, therefore, has low accuracy. The unmodified version has a range/ payload of 2,700 km/2,200 kg. (The Military Balance 1989-90, International Institute for Strategic Studies, p. 219). range/payload are of 2,500 km/2,000 kg

DF-21 (CSS-5) solid-fuel, medium-range ballistic missiles _ the numbers are unknown (some reports say more than 400)

Class: Medium-Range Ballistic Missile (MRBM)Range: 2,150 km
Payload: Single warhead, 600 kg
Warhead: 250 or 500 kT nuclear, HE, submunitions

Range of DF-3 and DF-21

The Saudi arsenal is certainly diverse and consists of three more missiles

Here are a few missile bases:

U.S. Confirms Saudi Ballistic Missile Production

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2019-07/news-briefs/us-confirms-saudi-ballistic-missile-production

I have already discussed this with the other member. The fact of the matter is, even if those numbers you posted are accurate, that's still a very limited number. Is it something Iran is considering? Yes, but it it a game changing? absolutely not.

The most effective defence against electromagnetic bombs is to prevent their delivery by destroying the launch platform or delivery vehicle, as is the case with nuclear weapons. This however may not always be possible, and therefore systems which can be expected to suffer exposure to the electromagnetic weapons effects must be electromagnetically hardened.

Agreed.

The most effective method is to wholly contain the equipment in an electrically conductive enclosure, termed a Faraday cage, which prevents the electromagnetic field from gaining access to the protected equipment. However, most such equipment must communicate with and be fed with power from the outside world, and this can provide entry points via which electrical transients may enter the enclosure and effect damage. While optical fibres address this requirement for transferring data in and out, electrical power feeds remain an ongoing vulnerability..

Agreed once again. But then again, electrical grids are vulnerable to everything else, from kinetic weapons to cyber attacks. Nothing specific to the EMPs.

 

[Genghis khan1]

You are still living 10 years back..told you KSA was innocented by US courts..So keep your dark wet dreams for you..

You still not getting it....
Point is the vulnerability factor. Single US citizen can challenge a Saudi state. Court case was bogus and nonsense. Massage was sent to KSA, we gotcha by the balls. Single wrong move, everything you have, it gone ... pufff.

Ultimately, Defense will someday be the Biggest worry for them, They have to prepare for it.

No for long , if they are struggling to feed their population.

If someday God Forbid, Arab is under attack massively, Not USA, Not Russia, Not China, Not India, Not France, But One and Only, Pakistan and allies would step in to fight side by side, That is for sure.

They know that, but for right now they are on western gravy training and are happy with it. They have realized that Pakistan isn’t coming to fight their regional adventures, so their are Hoping To Buy individual like SISI in Poor Arab nations to fight for them. They are forgetting that People are still Muslim and just buying SiSI into power won’t grantee that Arab nation as a whole Fight other Arabs or Muslims nation for MBS.

Ultimately, Defense will someday be the Biggest worry for them, They have to prepare for it.

No for long , if they are struggling to feed their population.

If someday God Forbid, Arab is under attack massively, Not USA, Not Russia, Not China, Not India, Not France, But One and Only, Pakistan and allies would step in to fight side by side, That is for sure.

They know that, but for right now they are on western gravy training and are happy with it. They have realized that Pakistan isn’t coming to fight their regional adventures, so their are Hoping To Buy individual like SISI in Poor Arab nations to fight for them. They are forgetting that People are still Muslim and just buying SiSI into power won’t grantee that Arab nation as a whole Fight other Arabs or Muslims nation for MBS.

The sides they have chosen, Won’t benefit in the long term given the benefits are only because they can throw money at them.

But remember, Gold diggers aren’t loyal !!! US is an enemy of Arabs, The islamophobia and 9/11 weren’t directed on Islam, They were directed on Arabs specifically.

Arabs should have instead tried to interfere in Pakistan’s politics when Bhutto and his goons and successors plagues this country, So that they could have had a backup in the shape of Pakistan, As a defence industry and all sorts of supplies.

MBS is from Generation that have not seen or suffer the misery of Arabian desert. He thought Saudis are special, and leverage is a given. It took decades for humble Old Saudis to build leverage, leverage based on Muslim good will and money for western countries. MBS took this fragile leverage and tried to swing it around for his Yemen/Syria advanced He end up receiving disappointment from every side. Little support from Pakistan but mostly dry promises , Few missile strikes in Syria from US and promise of Intel on Yemen. Rest weapons support based or expensive transactions. MBS tried playing hardball with Russia, but was ill informed about Putin. MBS raised his voice landed with warnings, Putin called MBS bluff on oil price negotiations, and left KSA in worst state.

 

[Ahmad Bhutta]

If Saudi Arabia ever gets the F35, we may see the first ever F35 shot down.

Qasim SALAMI uses to talk like you then he got bar b qued

 

[The SC]

I have already discussed this with the other member. The fact of the matter is, even if those numbers you posted are accurate, that's still a very limited number. Is it something Iran is considering? Yes, but it it a game changing? absolutely not.



Agreed.



Agreed once again. But then again, electrical grids are vulnerable to everything else, from kinetic weapons to cyber attacks. Nothing specific to the EMPs.

Those are not the numbers.. there are more than 6 bases the size of underground cities.. read again there are 3 more types ..but these ones are manufactured locally....

Talking about the power feed cables to the hidden and even protected bases.. not just the power grid that already exposed as well as the air defence radars and ships...etc

You still not getting it....
Point is the vulnerability factor. Single US citizen can challenge a Saudi state. Court case was bogus and nonsense. Massage was sent to KSA, we gotcha by the balls. Single wrong move, everything you have, it gone ... pufff.




MBS is from Generation that have not seen or suffer the misery of Arabian desert. He thought Saudis are special, and leverage is a given. It took decades for humble Old Saudis to build leverage, leverage based on Muslim good will and money for western countries. MBS took this fragile leverage and tried to swing it around for his Yemen/Syria advanced He end up receiving disappointment from every side. Little support from Pakistan but mostly dry promises , Few missile strikes in Syria from US and promise of Intel on Yemen. Rest weapons support based or expensive transactions. MBS tried playing hardball with Russia, but was ill informed about Putin. MBS raised his voice landed with warnings, Putin called MBS bluff on oil price negotiations, and left KSA in worst state.

So much BS in one post..

Facts:

How come no one American came to court? They puffffed your wet dreams?

Putin refused to lower Russian Oil production by 500 000 barrels.. now he agreed on 2.500.000 barrels reduction..

You must be sick in your heart..or have Covid-19..go play with kids like you somewhere else..

 

[Aspen]

MBS is from Generation that have not seen or suffer the misery of Arabian desert. He thought Saudis are special, and leverage is a given. It took decades for humble Old Saudis to build leverage, leverage based on Muslim good will and money for western countries. MBS took this fragile leverage and tried to swing it around for his Yemen/Syria advanced He end up receiving disappointment from every side. Little support from Pakistan but mostly dry promises , Few missile strikes in Syria from US and promise of Intel on Yemen. Rest weapons support based or expensive transactions. MBS tried playing hardball with Russia, but was ill informed about Putin. MBS raised his voice landed with warnings, Putin called MBS bluff on oil price negotiations, and left KSA in worst state.

Could not have said it better myself