SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[IrbiS]

I believe the optronics (EOTS) on board the F-35 can provide the target guidance to AIM9X via the data bus.....

How? Explain a little

secondly, even if the door is open, the missile seeker would need an unrestricted view of the target, which is difficult to obtain if the missile is packed inside.

That's the point. You gotta have equally capable weapons for the advanced platforms to get the best out of them

 

[Donatello]

How? Explain a little

The EOTS can scan in the IR spectrum and hence provide the recognized target image to on board computer of the AIM9X ( correct me if am wrong there) because that is the whole point of the optronics on board the F-35....it can see in a lot of spectrums just like the FSO on board the Rafale.

Just like a true IIR (Imaging Infrared Seeker) on a missile can provide the image to the onboard plane. So if the aircraft doesn't have it's own IRST, as long as the missile is hooked up to the data lines of the aircraft, the missile seeker acts as an external imaging device. Of course, once the missile is launched, that capability is gone.

 

[IrbiS]

The EOTS can scan in the IR spectrum and hence provide the recognized target image to on board computer of the AIM9X ( correct me if am wrong there) because that is the whole point of the optronics on board the F-35....it can see in a lot of spectrums just like the FSO on board the Rafale.

Just like a true IIR (Imaging Infrared Seeker) on a missile can provide the image to the onboard plane. So if the aircraft doesn't have it's own IRST, as long as the missile is hooked up to the data lines of the aircraft, the missile seeker acts as an external imaging device. Of course, once the missile is launched, that capability is gone.

Imaging infrared doesn't mean that you take a snap of plane and feed it to your missile and ask it "Go buddy, find this guy in the sky and kill it". R-73 being an early example with substantial off-bore capability and later examples following which can be used with HMDs, When you look off-bore at the target missile's seeker too looks in that direction and locks-on and after launch due to extreme manueverability can turn highly off-bore and go to other direction than launching platform. Aim-9x is essentially this type, its fire-and-forget like the ones described above. It has to see the target before launch. MICA IR on the other hand is more advanced with Lock-on before Launch and Lock-on after launch capability with one way data-link.When used in conjunction with FSO, it can be devastating. Until recently, Integrated IRSTs could only be seen on MiG-29 and Su-27 with main reason being the passive detection of target without using radar, hence not being detected easily. MICA has a data-link, you can launch it and then provide targeting data from FSO.

 

[Donatello]

Imaging infrared doesn't mean that you take a snap of plane and feed it to your missile and ask it "Go buddy, find this guy in the sky and kill it". R-73 being an early example with substantial off-bore capability and later examples following which can be used with HMDs, When you look off-bore at the target missile's seeker too looks in that direction and locks-on and after launch due to extreme manueverability can turn highly off-bore and go to other direction than launching platform. Aim-9x is essentially this type, its fire-and-forget like the ones described above. It has to see the target before launch. MICA IR on the other hand is more advanced with Lock-on before Launch and Lock-on after launch capability with one way data-link.When used in conjunction with FSO, it can be devastating. Until recently, Integrated IRSTs could only be seen on MiG-29 and Su-27 with main reason being the passive detection of target without using radar, hence not being detected easily. MICA has a data-link, you can launch it and then provide targeting data from FSO.

That is why i mentioned the FSO, and the ETOS of F-35 is meant to fulfill the same function, albeit maybe with a newer missile. Basically, your onboard IRST is useless if you can detect a target passively but not be able to launch a weapon towards it, similar to the having a APG66/68 on the F-16 but no AIM120. In the case of an Active guided missile, you need initial targeting information anyway, the missile's own seeker is too small to detect at it's max range, so it is launched with the preset directions and the missile is updated with the latest info. As it nears the target it can get a lock by itself.

Though i don't know how effective the FSO like system would be when chasing a F-22/F-35 class target.......there should be enough infrared generated for the target to be detected. How does it work then?

 

[Supply&Demand]

During the airshow, the J-31/FC-31 revealed aerodynamic inefficiencies during flight maneuvers. The aircraft bled a lot of energy and the pilot had a hard time keeping the nose up during turns and other maneuvers. The afterburners also had to be engaged often to maintain a proper energy utilization curve. Flights were done when the jet was "clean," so results would be worse when fitted with a combat loadout.

China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Defense: Aviation International News

 

[Viper0011.]

First Picture F-22 and FC-31 comparson

One of the pictures of -22 has one of the PAF's F-7 behind it right?

 

[The SC]

During the airshow, the J-31/FC-31 revealed aerodynamic inefficiencies during flight maneuvers. The aircraft bled a lot of energy and the pilot had a hard time keeping the nose up during turns and other maneuvers. The afterburners also had to be engaged often to maintain a proper energy utilization curve. Flights were done when the jet was "clean," so results would be worse when fitted with a combat loadout.

China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Defense: Aviation International News

Rarely do the Chinese display an aircraft ahead of the completion of its development, which caused the ground swell when the FC-31 made headlines at the Chinese air show. Plenty of cameras from across the globe were pointed into the sky as foreign military leaders got their first up close look at the aircraft.

China's FC-31 Stealth Fighter Makes Statement at Zhuhai Air Show | Defense Tech

China’s Stealth Fighter Could Get a Lot Better

Model hints at possible FC-31 enhancements

We don’t know much about the FC-31, China’s other stealth fighter prototype. But a non-flying model of the FC-31 that appeared at the Zhuhai air show in southern China in early November offers some compelling new clues.
That’s because the model is different than the flying FC-31 prototype—which also attended the Zhuhai show. Comparing the model and the plane could reveal Shenyang Aircraft Corporation’s ambitions for its new stealth jet.

The model boasts better stealth features, new engines and a wider range of sensors. If Shenyang adds all these enhancements to the FC-31, the resulting fighter could more closely match the American F-35.

But if the non-flying model at Zhuhai is any indication, the FC-31 could get a host of improvements. The model has a bigger nose, possibly to indicate carriage of a high-tech electronically-scanned-array radar. The model also includes an under-nose fairing for a camera, similar to the fairing on the F-35.

At top—the FC-31 at Zhuhai. Above—the model at Zhuhai. Photos via Chinese social media
The model’s tail fins are a different shape than the flying prototype’s fins, with parallel angles that could improve the plane’s ability to avoid radar detection. The canopy is one-piece—representing another possible signature reduction.

Likewise, the model’s engines are different, with sawtooth nozzles that could also improve the FC-31’s stealth. Shenyang reportedly wants to fit domestically-made motors to the FC-31 to replace the Russian RD-93s.

Now, we don’t know when—or even if—Shenyang plans to add the model’s improvements to the FC-31. Although, it’s worth pointing out that Chengdu has progressively improved its J-20 prototypes with stealth features.

China’s Stealth Fighter Could Get a Lot Better — War Is Boring — Medium

 

[IrbiS]

That is why i mentioned the FSO, and the ETOS of F-35 is meant to fulfill the same function, albeit maybe with a newer missile. Basically, your onboard IRST is useless if you can detect a target passively but not be able to launch a weapon towards it, similar to the having a APG66/68 on the F-16 but no AIM120. In the case of an Active guided missile, you need initial targeting information anyway, the missile's own seeker is too small to detect at it's max range, so it is launched with the preset directions and the missile is updated with the latest info. As it nears the target it can get a lock by itself.

Though i don't know how effective the FSO like system would be when chasing a F-22/F-35 class target.......there should be enough infrared generated for the target to be detected. How does it work then?

Data sharing is the core-capability these days. Imagine a target with cruel intentions is coming toward you and is detected by, let's take Erieye and Falcons are on the prowl. AEW&C detects it at long range while fighters are patrolling low so enemy radars don't know they're there. They position themselves in the range stealthily and launch AMRAAMs without even turning own radars but with targeting data provided by AEW&C and turn away, because 2000 can guide the missile with Link-16. Now, isn't it something?

In fact, One Rafale launched a MICA EM at a target drone over the shoulder without having even a radar contact with the target and targeting data provided to missile from another Rafale using Link-16. Missile made a 180-degree turn after launch and homed-on its target.

Sensor-fusion is essential for 5th-gen. fighters, all sensors work simultaneously and give you combined data for best results. Officials say that radar is more accurate for target range than passive systems and F-35's EOTS is more accurate in azimuth than the radar, combine the two and you get best result. Sure these planes too can be detected by other aircrafts with capable sensors. ASRAAM can also be launched with target data initially provided by radar.

 

[salman-1]

No its British light

One of the pictures of -22 has one of the PAF's F-7 behind it right?

No its British lightining interceptor fighter

 

[Donatello]

Data sharing is the core-capability these days. Imagine a target with cruel intentions is coming toward you and is detected by, let's take Erieye and Falcons are on the prowl. AEW&C detects it at long range while fighters are patrolling low so enemy radars don't know they're there. They position themselves in the range stealthily and launch AMRAAMs without even turning own radars but with targeting data provided by AEW&C and turn away, because 2000 can guide the missile with Link-16. Now, isn't it something?

In fact, One Rafale launched a MICA EM at a target drone over the shoulder without having even a radar contact with the target and targeting data provided to missile from another Rafale using Link-16. Missile made a 180-degree turn after launch and homed-on its target.

Sensor-fusion is essential for 5th-gen. fighters, all sensors work simultaneously and give you combined data for best results. Officials say that radar is more accurate for target range than passive systems and F-35's EOTS is more accurate in azimuth than the radar, combine the two and you get best result. Sure these planes too can be detected by other aircrafts with capable sensors. ASRAAM can also be launched with target data initially provided by radar.

This is what i am confused about. Since using a normal ranging method like Radar or Sonar, you emit a wave and wait for the echo/reflection to come back. You know the speed of the wave, you know the time it took b/w echos, so you can calculate the distance fairly easily. However, in case of IR/UV detection, you are not emitting anything, merely receiving it the photons emitted in that spectrum.....so how is the distance measured?

Another question, let's say AIM120 is launched from 70km out....it's onboard radar is too small to scan for the target on its own, so it need mid course guidance from the launch aircraft or some other external source. However, let's say the pilot moves the plane out of the scenario after AIM120 launch, what does the AIM120 do?

 

[IrbiS]

Another question, let's say AIM120 is launched from 70km out....it's onboard radar is too small to scan for the target on its own, so it need mid course guidance from the launch aircraft or some other external source. However, let's say the pilot moves the plane out of the scenario after AIM120 launch, what does the AIM120 do?

First of all, I don't think that if you launch AMRAAM exactly 70 km away from target, it would ever reach target. Its just stated and if tested, should have been under ideal conditions. For example if I'm flying at 5,000 and target is at 30,000 70km away, even if coming straight into me, I should wait. At most, range should be 50 km in combat conditions. Active Missiles are a leap forward compared to semi-active ones because you can turn away in the final stage but don't take 'em as fire-and-forget. Till it goes active itself, it should be guided if the target is a slow mover and poses less threat to the launch platform. But if confronted by a maneuvering target carrying same missiles, you should try to be as stealthy as possible. For example, if an enemy fighter is at 50km coming directly into an F-16, Falcon first should go far a co-operative stealthy engagement as described earlier. If it's on its own as you are saying, you should launch the missile with initial data and then turn to side frequently turning back in target and locking it for updating missile. Because enemy 'll keep flying in the straight line and if you launch as fire-and-forget and go back, it will most definitely not score against a worthy target unless it's a 'Mad Dog'(Code for launching in active mode but you need to be closer to the target for this). It shows you in the HUD, DLZ(Dynamic launch zone: a bar appears on hud with maximum limit of launch and minimum varying according to your and enemy position) before launch and timt to go active after launch.

This is what i am confused about. Since using a normal ranging method like Radar or Sonar, you emit a wave and wait for the echo/reflection to come back. You know the speed of the wave, you know the time it took b/w echos, so you can calculate the distance fairly easily. However, in case of IR/UV detection, you are not emitting anything, merely receiving it the photons emitted in that spectrum.....so how is the distance measured?

Advanced systems like aaq-40 combine infrared and laser. For the missiles, I don't know that much but, they are stated to have the capability to even target certain parts like cockpit or engine using focal pane array,iir combined with advanced algorithms

 

[Umar AA]

Pakistan's first priority should be an anti missile system and an anti aircraft system that could counter JSF etc. Next war may be against multiple countries and one or two squadrons of a stealth fighter may not do much. We need SAMs that could give nightmares to the enemies of Pakistan.

I fully endorse his idea, Pakistan is in dire need of Advanced SAM systems

 

[AFlover]

I fully endorse his idea, Pakistan is in dire need of Advanced SAM systems

Just for the learning purpose,can the SAM be neutralize or defused by the enemy?

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

Just for the learning purpose,can the SAM be neutralize or defused by the enemy?

We cannot really defuse or neutrlize a SAM but we can confuse it using different systems, the extent of which depends on the type of missile and its guidance system...MANPADS can be deceived by flares,radar guided SAMs by chaff.

 

[IrbiS]

Just for the learning purpose,can the SAM be neutralize or defused by the enemy?

That's what they call SEAD(Supression Of Enemy Air Defences) and DEAD(Destruction Of Enemy Air Defences) 'DEED' Using ECMs and Missiles. I like the USAF's motto for this mission: YGBSM(You Gotta Be S**ting Me)