SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Corax]

Not an Urban myth - go read PAFs own history published back in 2008 by Alan Warnes where the J-10A is shown as the FC-20A and was available to purchase - unless you consider the PAF liars versus your own words.

I have the book. Yes, the image used in the book is the J-10A model. But read the text. The PAF only started seriously considering the J-10 when the B model was under development and revealed in 2008, which is the baseline for the C model and eventually the export specific J-10CE a few years later. The PAF were hoping to have 40 by 2015 according to the book and the PAF! That clearly didn't happen. But my original point was that the PAF was not the main reason for the improvements in the B, C, and eventually CE models. Work on these were already underway. The PAF were only able to acquire the aircraft once the export specific CE model became available.

 

[GiantPanda]

The J-35 variant is being built - maybe PLAN is "sponsoring" it to see what SAC can come up with - but that is not the same as saying that the PLAN has "ordered" it ? If the J-35 is "successful" then that may be the entry criteria for actual "orders" ?

The procurement system for the PLAN is not quite fully transparent - but most large organisations/institutions would want to see their "requirements met" and "verified" before orders are placed.

Lets see if any of the current J-35 programme gets translated into "actual orders". Would be interesting if it did. It is not like Lockheed Martin, or Boeing where orders are "puiblically" announced - the Chinese procurement system is a bit more opaque - so clarity is difficult to see. Of course - all the Chinese members will iterate "with absolute certainty" that it has been ordered. Empirical evidence is somewhat difficult to prove that (though that does not mean it has "not" been ordered )...

The J-35 is the PLAN's 5th gen carrier fighter. Just like KJ-600 is the PLAN's carrier AEW aircraft. These things are the intended platforms for upcoming CATOBARs. They are ordered and unless you suddenly see a navalized J-20, the J-35 is the Navy's stealth fighter going forward until the 6th Gen comes out.

 

[Readerdefence]

The J-35 is the PLAN's 5th gen carrier fighter. Just like KJ-600 is the PLAN's carrier AEW aircraft. These things are the intended platforms for upcoming CATOBARs. They are ordered and unless you suddenly see a navalized J-20, the J-35 is the Navy's stealth fighter going forward until the 6th Gen comes out.

Hi
if you possibly add another line of Fujian to be online and operational around 2/3 years, by that time J35 will be too
& probably we all will be able to see KJ600 landing and takeoff
thank you

 

[SQ8]

I have the book. Yes, the image used in the book is the J-10A model. But read the text. The PAF only started seriously considering the J-10 when the B model was under development and revealed in 2008, which is the baseline for the C model and eventually the export specific J-10CE a few years later. The PAF were hoping to have 40 by 2015 according to the book and the PAF! That clearly didn't happen. But my original point was that the PAF was not the main reason for the improvements in the B, C, and eventually CE models. Work on these were already underway. The PAF were only able to acquire the aircraft once the export specific CE model became available.

Agreed that it was not the main reason - but perhaps you mistated or I misunderstood but the J-10A was available for export to the PAF as your post seemed to indicate otherwise.

As for improvements to the J-10A, I cannot state any references other than my own through a personal “horse’s mouth” situation regarding inputs (not drivers hut suggestions) for the J-10B so I cannot convince you otherwise

 

[Clairvoyant]

I have the book. Yes, the image used in the book is the J-10A model. But read the text. The PAF only started seriously considering the J-10 when the B model was under development and revealed in 2008, which is the baseline for the C model and eventually the export specific J-10CE a few years later. The PAF were hoping to have 40 by 2015 according to the book and the PAF! That clearly didn't happen. But my original point was that the PAF was not the main reason for the improvements in the B, C, and eventually CE models. Work on these were already underway. The PAF were only able to acquire the aircraft once the export specific CE model became available.

Paf evaluated the J.10A in detail during the Shaheen series exercises when it first visited Pakistan and during that particular exercise at Paf Rafiqui even F.7PG's were scoring regularly against them with their AIM.9L's. During that particular exercise 17 squadron took part with their F.7PG's and scored more than regularly against the J.10A's.

They suggested a number of improvements and only decided to go for the J-10C's after evaluating them in the Shaheen series held at Paf Bholari.

 

[TheSolution]

Agreed that it was not the main reason - but perhaps you mistated or I misunderstood but the J-10A was available for export to the PAF as your post seemed to indicate otherwise.

As for improvements to the J-10A, I cannot state any references other than my own through a personal “horse’s mouth” situation regarding inputs (not drivers hut suggestions) for the J-10B so I cannot convince you otherwise

So how satisfied are they with the J-10C?

Just meets the standard requirements or much better and capable than expected?

 

[SQ8]

So how satisfied are they with the J-10C?

Just meets the standard requirements or much better and capable than expected?

No way to tell unless another trip to pk is taken.

 

[applesauce]

The J-35 variant is being built - maybe PLAN is "sponsoring" it to see what SAC can come up with - but that is not the same as saying that the PLAN has "ordered" it ? If the J-35 is "successful" then that may be the entry criteria for actual "orders" ?

The procurement system for the PLAN is not quite fully transparent - but most large organisations/institutions would want to see their "requirements met" and "verified" before orders are placed.

Lets see if any of the current J-35 programme gets translated into "actual orders". Would be interesting if it did. It is not like Lockheed Martin, or Boeing where orders are "puiblically" announced - the Chinese procurement system is a bit more opaque - so clarity is difficult to see. Of course - all the Chinese members will iterate "with absolute certainty" that it has been ordered. Empirical evidence is somewhat difficult to prove that (though that does not mean it has "not" been ordered )...

its virtually guaranteed though.

PLAN literally has no other choice. Fujian is going to be in sea trials later this year. there is no way some other carrier stealth jet appears in time.

 

[araz]

No that's not true. The changes made to the J-10 were not "suggested by the PAF", that's simply an urban myth perpetuated on forums. The fact that the PAF didn't get its hands on the J-10 earlier was not because the "PAF improved" it, but because the Chinese never allowed its export until it had developed the export oriented J-10CE version. The JF-17 was a joint development export specific project, so the PAF had more say in its improvements, but the J-10 was and is a purely Chinese specific project, and only became available for export with a specific model the Chinese developed.

As Chinese members have previously stated, the J-31/35 has been flying for a decade, has already gone through a number of iterations, and will likely have multiple engine options. Even though it has not been ordered by the PLAF/PLAN, there has been significant development already. In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and the engine issue is a major risk.

Shahid Lateef is on record saying more than 30 changes were suggested to the J10 by PAF. Respect is due to all posters and I have no way of knowing what your credentials are. I would rather believe Shahid Lateef than you. The J31 remains a private venture, till PLAAF/PLAN puts its money behind it. That is why you have not seen more than 2 prototypes till fairly recently (if at all true). So I dont know where to go with your post. Only 2 prototypes ARE THERE AnD ONE IS FLYING. The engines on it are not complete and both WS13/19 ( I am happy to be corrected if the numbers are wrong). The J35 has not been seen in public and to the best of my knowledge there is no public statement from PLAN of support for it (to the best of my knowledge). We can discuss it once all these parameters are reached. I wish the Chinese the best of luck.
A

 

[LKJ86]

Shahid Lateef is on record saying more than 30 changes were suggested to the J10 by PAF. Respect is due to all posters and I have no way of knowing what your credentials are. I would rather believe Shahid Lateef than you. The J31 remains a private venture, till PLAAF/PLAN puts its money behind it. That is why you have not seen more than 2 prototypes till fairly recently (if at all true). So I dont know where to go with your post. Only 2 prototypes ARE THERE AnD ONE IS FLYING. The engines on it are not complete and both WS13/19 ( I am happy to be corrected if the numbers are wrong). The J35 has not been seen in public and to the best of my knowledge there is no public statement from PLAN of support for it (to the best of my knowledge). We can discuss it once all these parameters are reached. I wish the Chinese the best of luck.
A

Just relax, and J-35 has nothing to do with PAF.
SAC just foucs on the needs of PLAN and PLAAF.

There would be no projects likes FC-1/JF-17 any more.

 

[Corax]

Shahid Lateef is on record saying more than 30 changes were suggested to the J10 by PAF. Respect is due to all posters and I have no way of knowing what your credentials are. I would rather believe Shahid Lateef than you. The J31 remains a private venture, till PLAAF/PLAN puts its money behind it. That is why you have not seen more than 2 prototypes till fairly recently (if at all true). So I dont know where to go with your post. Only 2 prototypes ARE THERE AnD ONE IS FLYING. The engines on it are not complete and both WS13/19 ( I am happy to be corrected if the numbers are wrong). The J35 has not been seen in public and to the best of my knowledge there is no public statement from PLAN of support for it (to the best of my knowledge). We can discuss it once all these parameters are reached. I wish the Chinese the best of luck.
A

What were those "suggestions" provided by the PAF? For example, was it the PAF who suggested and designed the DSI on the B and C model? Did the Chinese incorporate them, or simply ignore the "suggestions", given that they were already developing the revised B and C models? Does that mean the PAF "improved" the J-10? Again, a lot of this is vapourware and ether without any details. As you highlighted with uppercase letters, the J-31/35 is flying, and has been for over 10 years. The engines are still in development, but if your point was to question the ability of the Chinese to design and manufacture aircraft engines, maybe ask the PAF, since they acquired the J-10C with Chinese engines, not Russian. In fact, if you read Alan Warnes book, the PAF originally wanted to install western avionics, weapons, and radar on the J-10, along with Russian AL-31 engines. What happened to that idea? In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and will rely on western engines, until the Turks have designed and manufactured their own high performance fighter engine, where they have no track record. Which was my original point - the J-31/35 is the only realistic option for the PAF, while the TFX is far too risky from the PAF's point of view, given the example of the T-129.

 

[Silicon0000]

Just relax, and J-35 has nothing to do with PAF.
SAC just foucs on the needs of PLAN and PLAAF.

There would be no projects likes FC-1/JF-17 any more.

Trust me when India is about to aquire 5th Gen then their will be a project of J35 similar to J10C vs J10CE.

Post 2040, TFX is like F-16 of PAF & will be in limited numbers and J35XE will be like JF-17/J10 and in bigger numbers.

 

[araz]

What were those "suggestions" provided by the PAF? For example, was it the PAF who suggested and designed the DSI on the B and C model? Did the Chinese incorporate them, or simply ignore the "suggestions", given that they were already developing the revised B and C models? Does that mean the PAF "improved" the J-10? Again, a lot of this is vapourware and ether without any details. As you highlighted with uppercase letters, the J-31/35 is flying, and has been for over 10 years. The engines are still in development, but if your point was to question the ability of the Chinese to design and manufacture aircraft engines, maybe ask the PAF, since they acquired the J-10C with Chinese engines, not Russian. In fact, if you read Alan Warnes book, the PAF originally wanted to install western avionics, weapons, and radar on the J-10, along with Russian AL-31 engines. What happened to that idea? In contrast, the TFX hasn't even flown yet, and will rely on western engines, until the Turks have designed and manufactured their own high performance fighter engine, where they have no track record. Which was my original point - the J-31/35 is the only realistic option for the PAF, while the TFX is far too risky from the PAF's point of view, given the example of the T-129.

Bhai
I do not have the contacts or the capacity/ tolerance for cavity exploration to ask PAF what the suggestions were. Suffice it to say if Shahid Lateef says so, unless you can bring evidence to the fore to contradict him, then you will not be accepted as a counter source. If you can ask and are well enough afterwards to convey us the changes suggested, please feel free to do so.
Can you care to highlight how many prototypes of J31/35 are currently flying. I can bet you will be able to count them on the fingers of your hand. I have no qualms against the platform and actually love it. However, It is not yet complete and certainly not in use with the PLAN/PLAAF, contrary to the hype created with our Chinese brothers. As a platform unless PLAN/ PLAAF inducts it on their own, PAF will not be inducting it. I cannot say what the House of Saud will do, but the cost sink is too much for PAF to bear on an untested platform which needs to attain operational maturity. The rest I am fine with.
Regards
A

 

[credence]

Shahid Lateef is on record saying more than 30 changes were suggested to the J10 by PAF. Respect is due to all posters and I have no way of knowing what your credentials are. I would rather believe Shahid Lateef than you. The J31 remains a private venture, till PLAAF/PLAN puts its money behind it. That is why you have not seen more than 2 prototypes till fairly recently (if at all true). So I dont know where to go with your post. Only 2 prototypes ARE THERE AnD ONE IS FLYING. The engines on it are not complete and both WS13/19 ( I am happy to be corrected if the numbers are wrong). The J35 has not been seen in public and to the best of my knowledge there is no public statement from PLAN of support for it (to the best of my knowledge). We can discuss it once all these parameters are reached. I wish the Chinese the best of luck.
A

I believe this is true. PAF gave a lot of suggestions to improve J10, since PAF is very familiar with F16. But it's mainly focus on the convenience of controlling this big bird for a pilot, As for the core tech, like DSI, engine, radar, it relied solely on Chinese developers' own knowledges and capabilities.

 

[credence]

Bhai
I do not have the contacts or the capacity/ tolerance for cavity exploration to ask PAF what the suggestions were. Suffice it to say if Shahid Lateef says so, unless you can bring evidence to the fore to contradict him, then you will not be accepted as a counter source. If you can ask and are well enough afterwards to convey us the changes suggested, please feel free to do so.
Can you care to highlight how many prototypes of J31/35 are currently flying. I can bet you will be able to count them on the fingers of your hand. I have no qualms against the platform and actually love it. However, It is not yet complete and certainly not in use with the PLAN/PLAAF, contrary to the hype created with our Chinese brothers. As a platform unless PLAN/ PLAAF inducts it on their own, PAF will not be inducting it. I cannot say what the House of Saud will do, but the cost sink is too much for PAF to bear on an untested platform which needs to attain operational maturity. The rest I am fine with.
Regards
A

Funding is not an issue for J31/35. Chinese Navy wants a carrier based stealthy fighter badly. Chinese Air Force also wants another type of stealthy fighter to balance the high cost of J20, to fill in the role like J10. China always keeps things secret, there is no desire and no need to disclose the number of prototypes of J31/35. in previous days, you didn't know how many J10, J20 prototypes either.