Russia may sell three Project 11356 frigates to India

[INDIAPOSITIVE]

India operates six Talwar-class frigates, which are the Project 11356 predecessors developed for exports.
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Russia is holding talks with India to sell three Project 11356 frigates earlier destined for the Russian Black Sea Fleet, Vice-President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation for Military Ship Construction Igor Ponomaryov told TASS on Friday.

"So far, we are fulfilling the works under state defense order and building these ships. At the same time, we’re holding talks on the possibility of selling these frigates to theIndian side," the vice-president said after the ceremony of hoisting the St. Andrew naval flag on the Project 11356 lead frigate, the Admiral Grigorovich.

When asked by TASS about whether a decision had been made on selling the frigates, Ponomaryov said: "This has not been decided."

"We’re holding talks so far and working under a state contract. But such negotiations are under way," he said.

According to the corporation’s vice-president, the engines for these warships "have been fully paid for by the Ukrainian side. They are staying in Ukraine and therefore we’ll be resolving the issue related to these engines."

A total of six Project 11356 frigates were planned to be built for the Russian Black Sea Fleet. The first frigate has already become operational in the Russian Navy and another two will join it by May and in August, Ponomaryov said earlier on Friday.

These warships are equipped with the Ukrainian-made engines, which has caused uncertainty with the construction of the other three frigates of this series. The United Shipbuilding Corporation said last year that these warships would be built but would be equipped with domestic engines.

India operates six Talwar-class frigates, which are the Project 11356 predecessors developed for exports. The Indian warships entered service in 2003-2004 and 2012-2013.

First published byTASS.

Russia may sell three Project 11356 frigates to India | Russia & India Report

 

[Fireaxe888]

I would think that India would do better to focus on indigenous designs for military projects as much as possible, as that's the current political priority. The new Indian frigate class is quite capable.

 

[MKC]

I would think that India would do better to focus on indigenous designs for military projects as much as possible, as that's the current political priority. The new Indian frigate class is quite capable.

I also think builder is creating sensation so that IN can buy it but I don't think in current scenario it's going to happen as these ships are going to completed withing year & not much heard about this program from Indian side, as we are just looking for home made products for navy it's almost comes with Make in India tag;.
As news are coming since starting of last year & Modi visited Russia two times & never heard any meeting between DM of India & builder who also visited Russia last year.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I would think that India would do better to focus on indigenous designs for military projects as much as possible, as that's the current political priority. The new Indian frigate class is quite capable.

These ar ebeing proposed with the explicit intent of rapid induction, India has the ability to make them itself but it will take time and right now all Indian shipyards are full for the next 5 years. The next class of frigates (P-17A) will be in service in 2022 so 3 new frigates able to be delivered within the next 3 years could be very attractive to the IN- that is the sole USP of this offer.

 

[nair]

"Ready to occupy" is the key......(if I could could real estate terms)

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Penguin would these Project 11356 frigates require some significant customisations for IN service given they have been designed for RuN service thus far? Not only would they have to be configured to operate in tropical rather than cold water conditions but they would require the internals to be complient with IN standards.

I know the Talwars were basically the same deisgn but they were intended from day one to be in Indian service and built accordingly to such specification.

 

[MilSpec]

@Penguin would these Project 11356 frigates require some significant customisations for IN service given they have been designed for RuN service thus far? Not only would they have to be configured to operate in tropical rather than cold water conditions but they would require the internals to be complient with IN standards.

I know the Talwars were basically the same deisgn but they were intended from day one to be in Indian service and built accordingly to such specification.

The only issue with these three ships is they do not have engines on them due to ukranian conflict, and thats why Russia is desperate to find export customer for this. This might be a little tricky, unless saturn ccan fastrack the M90FB.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The only issue with these three ships is they do not have engines on them due to ukranian conflict, and thats why Russia is desperate to find export customer for this. This might be a little tricky, unless saturn ccan fastrack the M90FB.

India has defence ties with both Russia and Ukraine so perhaps could by the frigates, send them to Pipavav and contract with Ukraine seperatly and have the engines fitted in India. A win win for all sides.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The only issue with these three ships is they do not have engines on them due to ukranian conflict, and thats why Russia is desperate to find export customer for this. This might be a little tricky, unless saturn ccan fastrack the M90FB.

the engines issues aside
help me out with a little confusion here.

1. Russia and India have long history of close military ties
2. China and Russia have similar views and agreement vs west on some issue & I guess Russia sympathises with China on south China sea conflict.
3. America is prepping India against China in south China sea conflict
4. India is among the anti china club in those waters.

so if 2 is correct then does this sale not contradict Russia china partnership against the west?

 

[Abingdonboy]

the engines issues aside
help me out with a little confusion here.

1. Russia and India have long history of close military ties
2. China and Russia have similar views and agreement vs west on some issue & I guess Russia sympathises with China on south China sea conflict.
3. America is prepping India against China in south China sea conflict
4. India is among the anti china club in those waters.

so if 2 is correct then does this sale not contradict Russia china partnership against the west?

3 and 4 are incorrect and this isn't the first military sale from Russia to india, India already operates 6 of these very ships not to mention all kinds of other high tech Russian hardware that will include the 5th generation FGFA in the near future.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

the engines issues aside
help me out with a little confusion here.

1. Russia and India have long history of close military ties
2. China and Russia have similar views and agreement vs west on some issue & I guess Russia sympathises with China on south China sea conflict.
3. America is prepping India against China in south China sea conflict
4. India is among the anti china club in those waters.

so if 2 is correct then does this sale not contradict Russia china partnership against the west?

On no 3.
How does buying a few Transport Aircrafts from US make India side with US against China ? Its laughable , the amount of cooperation and weapons dealing between US and Pakistan is much more.

@Penguin would these Project 11356 frigates require some significant customisations for IN service given they have been designed for RuN service thus far? Not only would they have to be configured to Melarain tropical rather than cold water conditions but they would require the internals to be complient with IN standards.

I know the Talwars were basically the same deisgn but they were intended from day one to be in Indian service and built accordingly to such specification.

They were intended to be used in the black sea fleet, not the northern fleet, so adapting them to tropical waters only needs a proper Towed Array Sonar.

And they come with 3x12 SAM , 8cell BrahMos 8, heavy torpedoes, 100mm naval gun ( we should either get an 76 or 127 from OTO Melara, to maintain commonality and both are better. ) , Rest AK630M is the best Gun based CIWS out there , modern Russian Radars and sensors are good enough. We may need some better ECM and decoy systems.

Rest as , MilSpec said , the problem is only power plant.

Goa Shipyard was being upgraded to handle 6,000 Tons vessels construction , I think its better a choice. Given Pipavav is still to deliver the first NOPV behind ~2 years schedule.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

the engines issues aside
help me out with a little confusion here.

1. Russia and India have long history of close military ties
2. China and Russia have similar views and agreement vs west on some issue & I guess Russia sympathises with China on south China sea conflict.
3. America is prepping India against China in south China sea conflict
4. India is among the anti china club in those waters.

so if 2 is correct then does this sale not contradict Russia china partnership against the west?

Lol, Russia is leasing one of it's SSNs, and negotiating another, even built a aircraft carrier for IN.... Do you really think a couple of frigates is anything to what has already happened of late?

It makes perfect sense to try to sneak in some of their own platforms, while India is making it's own designs.

3, 4 are suspect to say the least, India still stands with non alignment movement.

 

[MilSpec]

the engines issues aside
help me out with a little confusion here.

1. Russia and India have long history of close military ties
2. China and Russia have similar views and agreement vs west on some issue & I guess Russia sympathises with China on south China sea conflict.
3. America is prepping India against China in south China sea conflict
4. India is among the anti china club in those waters.

so if 2 is correct then does this sale not contradict Russia china partnership against the west?

That is a slight oversimplification, Russia has it's suspicions on china, and will not want an extremely powerful China on it's border. It also sees China as an potential adversary in it's military market.

Russia- China have a tacit understanding of India's foreign policy. They know very well India irrespective of 100's of incentive will remain independent in it's foreign policy. No matter how much US want's India to be it's pivot, no government in India will ever buy into that idea. India being apprehensive of China is purely due to it's own security concern in Indian Ocean and China propping up Pakistan as a proxy against India. But India is not going to play US pawn under any circumstance, When I keep re-iterating that India will stick to it''s India First Policy, it's not out of nationalistic fervor but decades of observation of it's foriegn policy.This policy is so deep rooted, if the circumstances demand India will go to the extent of allying with china or pakistan to ensure protection of it's national interests. thats how deep rooted this sense of self preservation is.

India has defence ties with both Russia and Ukraine so perhaps could by the frigates, send them to Pipavav and contract with Ukraine seperatly and have the engines fitted in India. A win win for all sides.

I am not that optimistic about Ukraine, in my experience Ukranians have been extremely un reliable, guess where Mig21MF/S overhaul crappy spares came from?

 

[Spectre]

That is a slight oversimplification, Russia has it's suspicions on china, and will not want an extremely powerful China on it's border. It also sees China as an potential adversary in it's military market.

Russia- China have a tacit understanding of India's foreign policy. They know very well India irrespective of 100's of incentive will remain independent in it's foreign policy. No matter how much US want's India to be it's pivot, no government in India will ever buy into that idea. India being apprehensive of China is purely due to it's own security concern in Indian Ocean and China propping up Pakistan as a proxy against India. But India is not going to play US pawn under any circumstance, When I keep re-iterating that India will stick to it''s India First Policy, it's not out of nationalistic fervor but decades of observation of it's foriegn policy.This policy is so deep rooted, if the circumstances demand India will go to the extent of allying with china or pakistan to ensure protection of it's national interests. thats how deep rooted this sense of self preservation is.


I am not that optimistic about Ukraine, in my experience Ukranians have been extremely un reliable, guess where Mig21MF/S overhaul crappy spares came from?

Russia China friendship is a mirage. Russia needs Chinese money and influence which come at a huge cost i.e. drilling rights and concessions on border. As current situation stands Russia stands relatively isolated, over-extended and heavily sanctioned so it has to pay lip-service to Sino-Russian alliance but inherently Russia has been extremely dis-trustful of China.

Putin guards Russian territorial integrity and it's standing with a ferocity of mama bear but his ill considered actions ( or masterful foresight) compels him to be subservient to China for the time being but as soon there is a thaw with Europe and US ( quite possible considering Russia has achieved it's strategic goals in ME and Ukraine) Russia will back down with vengeance from China. No country wants to let other have free run on their home turf - which is what exactly China is doing by violating Russian IP, expanding in Central Asia (eroding Russian influence on 'tans) and buying drilling rights left right and centre in Siberia.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Construction of the six patrol ships of the modified project 11356 (sometimes referred to as the project 11356R or 11357) maintained Shipyard "Yantar" in Kaliningrad on two contracts for three ships, each signed with the Russian Ministry of Defense - the contract number 704/27/2 / PMC / SC / 1176 -10 of 28 October 2010 (the first three) and contract number W / 1/1/0553 / GK-11-DGOZ of 13 September 2011 (the second trio). The cost of each contract is 40 billion rubles. All six ships initially planned to replenish the Black Sea Fleet.

Under the first contract to date, we completed the construction of patrol ships "Admiral Grigorovich" (serial number 01357, the State completed the test, the signing of the act of reception and transmission of the Navy is scheduled for March 10-11, 2016) and "Admiral Essen" (serial number 01358 is on State test phase since January 30, 2016). A third of the same type frigate "Admiral Makarov" (serial number 01359) Launched September 3, 2015, is located in the Shipyard "Yantar" in the completion.

Head frigate under the second contract "Admiral Butakov" (serial number 01360) was laid on the Shipyard "Yantar" July 12, 2013, and launched today. November 15, 2013 was laid down as the next patrol ship "Admiral Istomin" (serial number 01361). Bookmark last scheduled six ships, "Admiral Kornilov" (serial number 01362) to date have not produced, although the groundwork was prepared for him.

Refusal of advertising descent "Admiral Butakova" looks natural, because the fate of the second trio of modified frigates of Project 11356 for the Russian fleet is now under question, because of lack for them of the main gas turbine power plants production Nikolaev State Enterprise "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" undelivered for these vehicles due to the events in Ukraine. Because of this, completion of two frigates laid second three, most likely, it will be suspended after the descent of the water (and the descent itself is required mainly for the release of stocks of the plant).

Recall that, according to a press release Nicholas State Enterprise "Zorya" February 25, 2016 - "Mashproekt", is a company in October 2012 signed with Shipyard "Yantar" contract to supply three sets of power generating units M7N for the second three Russian frigates modified project 11356 According to this contract, the Nikolaev enterprise must put on the "Amber" the first unit in December 2014, and the second and third - in October-December 2015.

In June 2014 the order of the State Service of Export Control of Ukraine suspended the export licenses of military goods to the Russian Federation. In connection with this work commissioned for the "Amber" at the Research and Production Complex "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" were discontinued. Gas turbine DS-71 and DT-59 M7N first unit (designed for frigate "Admiral Butakov") at the time were made Nikolaev now, but bench tests conducted were gone. All equipment was suspended and sent into the production storage.


Some photos of "Admiral Butakov"

Спущен на воду фрегат "Адмирал Бутаков" - bmpd

So after 5th ship the project is at present stalled. 6th ship hasn't been laid down till now

and this is the Adm Grigorovitch's's radar 3Ts-25E target detection, tracking and acquisition data

Overview of the new frigates' weapons systems.

• 100 mm A-190-01 gun
• 36 x Shtil-1 SAM launchers
• 8 x UKSK launchers for Oniks or Kalibr missiles
• 1 x RBU-6000 rocket launcher
• 2х2 533mm torpedo tubes
• AK 630

A-190 mounted on Grigorovich.