Russia, China jointly develop high-tech weapons — Putin

[beijingwalker]

Russia, China jointly develop high-tech weapons — Putin
The Russian president described the cooperation between Russia and China as "an absolutely comprehensive partnership of strategic nature"

23 DEC, 19:04

MOSCOW, December 23. /TASS/. Russia and China are jointly developing high-tech weapons as they cooperate in the security area, Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday.

"We cooperate [with China] in the security area," he said during his annual news conference. "China’s armed forces are equipped with the most advanced weapons systems to a large extent."

"We are even developing together certain high-tech types of weapons," the president went on to say. "We are working in space, aircraft areas. On planes and helicopters."

The armed forces of the two countries also cooperate, Putin said.

"It’s joint exercises, participation in joint international war games, joint patrols at sea and in air," he said. Russia and China have "an absolutely comprehensive partnership of strategic nature," he said.

https://tass.com/politics/1379867

 

[MH.Yang]

I propose to cooperate with Russia in three aspects:
1, the next generation of non stealth strategic bombers.
2, the next generation of 30+ ton large general purpose helicopter.
3, medium and small caliber machine cannon.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

The dragon and the phoenix.

 

[FuturePAF]

I propose to cooperate with Russia in three aspects:
1, the next generation of non stealth strategic bombers.
2, the next generation of 30+ ton large general purpose helicopter.
3, medium and small caliber machine cannon.

Definitely, Those three would probably be the highest priorities.

SSNs and SSBNs would probably be the biggest place they could cooperate, to change the strategic balance in naval warfare, as Russian Attack boats and boomers are nearly just as good as American boats.

Heavy Attack Helicopters as well as heavy transport helicopters would be a close second for building up any substantial air assault capability.

Cooperating in Air Force projects could also be a top priority, as China could purchase dozens of Su-57 to help Russia keep their program alive, while China gets the best of their engine technologies and could apply a lot of the technology from the Su-57 to all the Flanker programs in China including the J-15 program to potentially create a derivative Stealth Design as a dedicated carrier fighter, larger then the J-35 and to replace the J-15.

China could also procure the rights to make the Tu-160 in China, so it can replace its subsonic H-6 bombers, and that could help Russia fund its next generation Bomber program.

China could also procure the T-14 Armata Tank and T-15 IFV and help produce versions, paying royalties to help Russia partially funded the 2300 T-14s they hopes to procure.

Basically, Russia has modern technology and China has potential funding and a need to catch up in many fields ASAP. But also, China could make Weapons for Russia in more cost effective ways and quicker, with the best potential example being a New Russian carrier battle group/amphibious assault force like the Russians have wanted with the French Mistral class ships; supercarriers, air defense destroyers, and LHDs.

It benefits both, and it funds Russian scientists to produce the next generation of weapons as well as Russian armed forces to actually build in numbers.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Good to see

 

[MH.Yang]

Definitely, Those three would probably be the highest priorities.

SSNs and SSBNs would probably be the biggest place they could cooperate, to change the strategic balance in naval warfare, as Russian Attack boats and boomers are nearly just as good as American boats.

Attack Helicopters as well as heavy transport helicopters would be a close second for building up any substantial air assault capability.

Cooperating in Air Force projects could also be a top priority, as China could purchase dozens of Su-57 to help Russia keep their program alive, while China gets the best of their engine technologies and could apply a lot of that technology to all the Flanker programs in China including the J-15 program to potentially create a derivative Stealth Design as a dedicated carrier fighter, larger then the J-35 and to replace the J-15.

China could also procure the rights to make the Tu-160 in China, so it can replace its subsonic H-6 bombers, and that could help Russia fund its next generation Bomber program.

China could also procure the T-14 Armata Tank and T-15 IFV and help produce versions, paying royalties to help Russia partially funded the 2300 T-14s they hopes to procure.

Basically, Russia has modern technology and China has potential funding and a need to catch up in many fields ASAP. But also, China could make Weapons for Russia in more cost effective ways and quicker, with the best potential example being a New Russian carrier battle group/amphibious assault force like the Russians have wanted with the French Mistral class ships; supercarriers, air defense destroyers, and LHDs.

It benefits both, and it funds Russian scientists to produce the next generation of weapons as well as Russian armed forces to actually build in numbers.

I don't think SSBN and stealth bombers need to cooperate. China's 096 and H20 are about to enter service. These two projects are not suitable for other countries to participate.
With regard to attack helicopters, China and France already have relevant cooperation agreements.
As for the next generation MBT, China and Russia have different positioning for MBT, which is not suitable for joint research.


Tu160 is really good. I also like this White Swan very much. But it has been in service for nearly 40 years. Moreover, it does not conform to China's war theory. I think we should cooperate with Russia to study the next generation of white swans. So that it and H20 can complement each other.
Of course, not only the next generation Tu160, we can also cooperate to study the next generation Tu22M3&Tu95MS.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Definitely, Those three would probably be the highest priorities.

SSNs and SSBNs would probably be the biggest place they could cooperate, to change the strategic balance in naval warfare, as Russian Attack boats and boomers are nearly just as good as American boats.

Attack Helicopters as well as heavy transport helicopters would be a close second for building up any substantial air assault capability.

Cooperating in Air Force projects could also be a top priority, as China could purchase dozens of Su-57 to help Russia keep their program alive, while China gets the best of their engine technologies and could apply a lot of that technology to all the Flanker programs in China including the J-15 program to potentially create a derivative Stealth Design as a dedicated carrier fighter, larger then the J-35 and to replace the J-15.

China could also procure the rights to make the Tu-160 in China, so it can replace its subsonic H-6 bombers, and that could help Russia fund its next generation Bomber program.

China could also procure the T-14 Armata Tank and T-15 IFV and help produce versions, paying royalties to help Russia partially funded the 2300 T-14s they hopes to procure.

Basically, Russia has modern technology and China has potential funding and a need to catch up in many fields ASAP. It benefits both, and it funds Russian scientists to produce the next generation of weapons as well as Russian armed forces to actually build in numbers.

Tu-160 isn't as good as a modernized Tu-22M or Tu-95. It's a white elephant which is why even Russia only purchased less than 50 while Tu-22M was made in 500+. Tu-22M has good aerodynamics but was limited by materials and avionics. But it's useless to buy it wholesale. Tech transfer is acceptable.

Russia also can buy Chinese 052D destroyers, 075 helicopter carriers and 002 ski jump carriers since they can no longer produce anything bigger than a frigate. No need for tech transfer, Russian shipyards can't handle the construction but they can handle the maintenance.

There's not much in the Russian air force that can be sold to China usefully. Their planes, while good, don't fit Chinese doctrine. Su-57 does not fit what China wants, J-20 and J-35 does.

That's what many South Asians don't understand. It's not about looking good for numbers on a brochure, it's about fit for doctrine and logistics. Russian doctrine is very different than Chinese doctrine. Every country that manufactures its own weapons does so with the understanding of how it fits into their own doctrine perfectly. Those who buy from others are just getting 2nd hand equipment, 3rd hand doctrine and 4th hand knowledge.

 

[FuturePAF]

I don't think SSBN and stealth bombers need to cooperate. China's 096 and H20 are about to enter service. These two projects are not suitable for other countries to participate.
With regard to attack helicopters, China and France already have relevant cooperation agreements.
As for the next generation MBT, China and Russia have different positioning for MBT, which is not suitable for joint research.


Figure 160 is really good. I also like this White Swan very much. But it has been in service for nearly 40 years. Moreover, it does not conform to China's war theory. I think we should cooperate with Russia to study the next generation of white swans. So that it and H20 can complement each other.


View attachment 803022

What is China’s war theory with regard to bombers?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Figure 160 is really good. I also like this White Swan very much. But it has been in service for nearly 40 years. Moreover, it does not conform to China's war theory. I think we should cooperate with Russia to study the next generation of white swans. So that it and H20 can complement each other.

Tu-160 is not good for Chinese doctrine. It is too big, heavy and hard to maintain: 4 engines, swing wings, and yet only thrust:weight ratio of 0.37. Its strengths of Mach 2 flight and 10000 km range are not necessary for the sacrifice of maintenance and cost.

Tu-22M has only 2 engines but thrust:weight ratio of 0.45. It is much more maintainable and better flight characteristics.

With modern materials, the requirements for the engines can be reduced even further.

With modern avionics, the swing wing mechanism can be removed in favor of a delta wing.

The strength of the Tu-22M is its strong surface search radar, supersonic speed, long range and heavy payload while using only 2 engines. That is because it has a very good aerodynamic design. If China can get partial ToT for Tu-22M, it can be good for a modified "H-22" heavy conventional bomber project. But it is not necessary if it is too costly. H-6 is not that bad.

 

[Super Falcon]

Probleum is why russia arming india against stategic partner china

 

[FuturePAF]

Tu-160 isn't as good as a modernized Tu-22M or Tu-95. It's a white elephant which is why even Russia only purchased less than 50 while Tu-22M was made in 500+. Tu-22M has good aerodynamics but was limited by materials and avionics. But it's useless to buy it wholesale. Tech transfer is acceptable.

Russia also can buy Chinese 052D destroyers, 075 helicopter carriers and 002 ski jump carriers since they can no longer produce anything bigger than a frigate. No need for tech transfer, Russian shipyards can't handle the construction but they can handle the maintenance.

There's not much in the Russian air force that can be sold to China usefully. Their planes, while good, don't fit Chinese doctrine. Su-57 does not fit what China wants, J-20 and J-35 does.

That's what many South Asians don't understand. It's not about looking good for numbers on a brochure, it's about fit for doctrine and logistics. Russian doctrine is very different than Chinese doctrine. Every country that manufactures its own weapons does so with the understanding of how it fits into their own doctrine perfectly. Those who buy from others are just getting 2nd hand equipment, 3rd hand doctrine and 4th hand knowledge.

Sure, the doctrines may different, but China has adopted a lot of Russian equipment to its war fighting strategy in the past. Perhaps nowadays, wholesale acquisition of Russian platforms may no longer be relevant, but certain sub-systems could still be areas where Russia still exceeds the performance of current Chinese systems.

Perhaps the Tu-160 was just too complicated and expensive for the Soviets to procure. A potential Chinese variant could be constructed more efficiently, and just like the B-1B, could still fit the role of low level anti ship missile truck. Is the H-20 suppose to be a subsonic design or a supersonic capable design?

But I would agree, a Twin Engine design is more realistic then a Four engine design. Down the line it maybe desired, post a Taiwan scenario, where operations in the second and third island chain would require the extended range. Even then the Tu-160 would have to be redesigned to deal with modern challenges.

 

[beijingwalker]

Probleum is why russia arming india against stategic partner china

Russia needs money, it's understandable, besides, even if Russia didn't sell weapons to India, India will get weapons from the west anyway.

 

[FuturePAF]

Probleum is why russia arming india against stategic partner china

Money primarily, I’d assume. but also influence, so India doesn’t go into the western camp and do anything against Russian interests.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Tu-160 is not good for Chinese doctrine. It is too big, heavy and hard to maintain: 4 engines, swing wings, and yet only thrust:weight ratio of 0.37. Its strengths of Mach 2 flight and 10000 km range are not necessary for the sacrifice of maintenance and cost.

Tu-22M has only 2 engines but thrust:weight ratio of 0.45. It is much more maintainable and better flight characteristics.

With modern materials, the requirements for the engines can be reduced even further.

With modern avionics, the swing wing mechanism can be removed in favor of a delta wing.

The strength of the Tu-22M is its strong surface search radar, supersonic speed, long range and heavy payload while using only 2 engines. That is because it has a very good aerodynamic design. If China can get partial ToT for Tu-22M, it can be good for a modified "H-22" heavy conventional bomber project. But it is not necessary if it is too costly. H-6 is not that bad.

The upgraded Tu-160 is still very good, and it could be complementary with the H-20.

The total stealthy strategic bomber like the H-20 can never carry as much of missiles as the non-stealthy T-160.

If Russia can make some exchange with China in the air/naval technologies, then it could be a win-win situation as it could greatly improve the shortcomings from both side.

 

[MH.Yang]

What is China’s war theory with regard to bombers?

I can only talk about my personal understanding. H20 can hardly be really used, its only use is strategic deterrence. In a small-scale war, H6K can do what H20 can do. The H6K will be flexibly applied to all battlefields. If it is a large-scale war, H20&B2, probably has no chance to take off, and the airport has been destroyed.

As for the Tu160, I only want its aeroengine and variable swept wing technology.
In addition, quantum radar may bring great changes to the field of stealth fighter in the future, So we should also invest in supersonic technology for 300+ ton aircraft in advance.
Our cooperation with Russia on the next generation Tu160 does not mean that we will eventually use its research results.