Rolls-Royce focusing on defense, nuclear businesses in Turkey

[mike2000 is back]

It's even funnier how some people around here (from the Muslim World) are praising Putin and Russia as a great friend to the Muslims and are wetting their pants every time he flexes his muscles to the West... all of that just because they hate the West. They have probably never heard about the countless genocides and ethnic cleansings the Russians and Soviets did against the Muslims in the Volga Basin, The Caucasus, Crimea, Central Asia- Turks, Tatars, Chechens, Kazakhs, Cherkes and many others (to be fair, millions of Christian have died too in this Prison of Nations as Russia was called). Yet you will only see them talking about the USA, The West and Israel and how evil they are when at the same time they are angels compared to the Communist scum.

Putin's propaganda machine is waging a hybrid war against the West and the World. It includes hundreds of fake news- click bait sites, thousands of people and profiles working on the social medias and internet, sponsoring dozens of far- right and far- left political parties around Europe (all of whom are anti-Muslim, anti- Turkey, anti- NATO, anti- EU and pro- Russia and pro- Putin), disinformation and propaganda that should manipulate the public views.

lol You are right. It's not just some Muslims on here, I have seen even some Turks on here making such claims(especially when it's about a thread which involves the west having issues with Erdogan/Turkey) about how Russia will be a better ally for Turkey and that they should turn their back on useless imperialist NATO /West . I understand that most times its usually just emotional statements in regards to an article.
So we shouldn't just pick on other Muslims members on here who are often naive about the geopolitical realities between the West, Russia and Turkey, so I can't blame them much..
THE MOST INTRIGUING ONE FOR ME IT'S THOSE MUSLIMS OR IMMIGRANTS WHO LIVE IN THE WEST and yet they publicly despise the west and everything we stand for. You will se them cheering for Pugin against the evil West, calling the west(or the country they live in Satan /evil immoral country and wishing for our downfall), funny enough Some of them are even more radical in their views compared to their brothers back home, as you will see them calling for strict religious Islamic laws/shariah to be followed by Muslim countries in the region, calling democracy a western conspiracy while they enjoy their lives and freedom here and won't go back to their home country to settle lol . I have seen that quite a few times on here to be honest. Always baffles me. I still don't understand this phenomenon.

 

[flamer84]

lol You are right. It's not just some Muslims on here, I have seen even some Turks on here making such claims(especially when it's about a thread which involves the west having issues with Erdogan/Turkey) about how Russia will be a better ally for Turkey and that they should turn their back on useless imperialist NATO /West . I understand that most times its usually just emotional statements in regards to an article.
So we shouldn't just pick on other Muslims members on here who are often naive about the geopolitical realities between the West, Russia and Turkey, so I can't blame them much..
THE MOST INTRIGUING ONE FOR ME IT'S THOSE MUSLIMS OR IMMIGRANTS WHO LIVE IN THE WEST and yet they publicly despise the west and everything we stand for. You will se them cheering for Pugin against the evil West, calling the west(or the country they live in Satan /evil immoral country and wishing for our downfall), funny enough Some of them are even more radical in their views compared to their brothers back home, as you will see them calling for strict religious Islamic laws/shariah to be followed by Muslim countries in the region, calling democracy a western conspiracy while they enjoy their lives and freedom here and won't go back to their home country to settle lol . I have seen that quite a few times on here to be honest. Always baffles me. I still don't understand this phenomenon.

It's more troubling seeing Europeans worshiping Putin as the great champion of Christianity and Europe. That's why, nationalist and highly skeptical about non-European immigration as I may be, I can't take most far right European parties seriously.

 

[Yatağanlı]

lol You are right. It's not just some Muslims on here, I have seen even some Turks on here making such claims(especially when it's about a thread which involves the west having issues with Erdogan/Turkey) about how Russia will be a better ally for Turkey and that they should turn their back on useless imperialist NATO /West . I understand that most times its usually just emotional statements in regards to an article.
So we shouldn't just pick on other Muslims members on here who are often naive about the geopolitical realities between the West, Russia and Turkey, so I can't blame them much..
THE MOST INTRIGUING ONE FOR ME IT'S THOSE MUSLIMS OR IMMIGRANTS WHO LIVE IN THE WEST and yet they publicly despise the west and everything we stand for. You will se them cheering for Pugin against the evil West, calling the west(or the country they live in Satan /evil immoral country and wishing for our downfall), funny enough Some of them are even more radical in their views compared to their brothers back home, as you will see them calling for strict religious Islamic laws/shariah to be followed by Muslim countries in the region, calling democracy a western conspiracy while they enjoy their lives and freedom here and won't go back to their home country to settle lol . I have seen that quite a few times on here to be honest. Always baffles me. I still don't understand this phenomenon.

As a Dutch-Turkish Muslim I agree with your point. I think it mostly coincides with level of education and general standard of living. Higher-educated Muslims are far more objective, generally speaking of course. The same can be said or 'Natives' (hate that term) who hate the EU and European institutions and think Putin is this cool badass who does what needs to be done.

 

[-------]

lol You are right. It's not just some Muslims on here, I have seen even some Turks on here making such claims(especially when it's about a thread which involves the west having issues with Erdogan/Turkey) about how Russia will be a better ally for Turkey and that they should turn their back on useless imperialist NATO /West . I understand that most times its usually just emotional statements in regards to an article.
So we shouldn't just pick on other Muslims members on here who are often naive about the geopolitical realities between the West, Russia and Turkey, so I can't blame them much..
THE MOST INTRIGUING ONE FOR ME IT'S THOSE MUSLIMS OR IMMIGRANTS WHO LIVE IN THE WEST and yet they publicly despise the west and everything we stand for. You will se them cheering for Pugin against the evil West, calling the west(or the country they live in Satan /evil immoral country and wishing for our downfall), funny enough Some of them are even more radical in their views compared to their brothers back home, as you will see them calling for strict religious Islamic laws/shariah to be followed by Muslim countries in the region, calling democracy a western conspiracy while they enjoy their lives and freedom here and won't go back to their home country to settle lol . I have seen that quite a few times on here to be honest. Always baffles me. I still don't understand this phenomenon.

How likely is it that Jeremy Corbyn will win elections this summer?

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

...
So I don't understand your point. Seems to some people, every single deal we sign after Brexit will be justified on Brexit. Lol well if it makes people feel better then so be it.
...

^^

You will lose a market of more than 440 million inhabitants. Europe is the world's largest single market.

We are in the era of economic and strategic blocs. If you are not part of one of these major blocks you will not survive in the long run. You will just become a ordinary country at the end of the train.

Negotiate trade agreements to 27 with China or alone, are two completely different things. The weight of influence, in the balance, is completely reversed and never will. You will be begging to kneel within 40, 50 years to reintegrate the EU. But this time will be at their own conditions.

The 23 June 2016, ‘the deep morons’ of your country committed political, economic and strategic suicide for all population of UK.


...

 

[mike2000 is back]

How likely is it that Jeremy Corbyn will win elections this summer?

Zero. There's no Chance at all. Even his own party MPs know that. They will merely be trying to keep the gap between them and Theresa May's party to a minimum. I. E limiting the damage. The conservatives ate heading for a landslide I believe. I'll be voting for the Conservative as well. I have never voted for them in my life, this will be the first time. I always voted labour, same with most of my friends. But this time we will all be voting conservative as long as delusional corbyn is still labour leader.

 

[Mr.Department]

As a Dutch-Turkish Muslim I agree with your point. I think it mostly coincides with level of education and general standard of living. Higher-educated Muslims are far more objective, generally speaking of course. The same can be said or 'Natives' (hate that term) who hate the EU and European institutions and think Putin is this cool badass who does what needs to be done.

True. Up to the mid of 80's Turks were well respected in Austria and Germany. After the coup 1980 almost 500.000 Kurdish and other people got "Asylum" . Most of them were from rural area. Crime ( drug and prostitution raised extrem) together with the fact that German and Austrian Gov. never wanted to integrate but disintegrate Turks, a Ghetto culture grew up with a mixture of very conservative ( partly extreme religious and violent people) .

 

[mike2000 is back]

^^

You will lose a market of more than 440 million inhabitants. Europe is the world's largest single market.

We are in the era of economic and strategic blocs. If you are not part of one of these major blocks you will not survive in the long run. You will just become a ordinary country at the end of the train.

Negotiate trade agreements to 27 with China or alone, are two completely different things. The weight of influence, in the balance, is completely reversed and never will.

The 23 June 2016, ‘the deep morons’ of your country committed political, economic and strategic suicide for all population of UK.


...

LOL who told you we won't be trading with Europe? You think not being in the E. U means we will stop all trade with Europe? For your info not all European countries are part of the E. U.
You kind of remind me of all the articles I have seen about how people were saying Britain's economy was going to collapse into oblivion if we don't adopt the EURO currency when we were about to get into the European union. Yet our currency not only remained strong but became the world's third largest reserve currency and among the world's most traded even to this day.
As iIsaid before, negotiations will take place and a deal will be reached and life will continue. Britain won't collapse into oblivion and poverty like many have being predicting for decades. There's more chance of that happening to countries in your region than Britain. So I won't worry much about this. We will overcome that like many other events in history, the email are always period of trials in life, things can't always be smooth

 

[Mr.Department]

There's more chance of that happening to countries in your region than Britain.

Danish followed same in currency. It is better for us to trade with UK on BP base and hold a certain BP reserve in our central bank.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

lol You are right. It's not just some Muslims on here, I have seen even some Turks on here making such claims(especially when it's about a thread which involves the west having issues with Erdogan/Turkey) about how Russia will be a better ally for Turkey and that they should turn their back on useless imperialist NATO /West . I understand that most times its usually just emotional statements in regards to an article.
So we shouldn't just pick on other Muslims members on here who are often naive about the geopolitical realities between the West, Russia and Turkey, so I can't blame them much..
THE MOST INTRIGUING ONE FOR ME IT'S THOSE MUSLIMS OR IMMIGRANTS WHO LIVE IN THE WEST and yet they publicly despise the west and everything we stand for. You will se them cheering for Pugin against the evil West, calling the west(or the country they live in Satan /evil immoral country and wishing for our downfall), funny enough Some of them are even more radical in their views compared to their brothers back home, as you will see them calling for strict religious Islamic laws/shariah to be followed by Muslim countries in the region, calling democracy a western conspiracy while they enjoy their lives and freedom here and won't go back to their home country to settle lol . I have seen that quite a few times on here to be honest. Always baffles me. I still don't understand this phenomenon.

Here is my two cents about this issue.

I believe groups like DAESH (ISIS) etc are the biggest enemy of Islam, and that is actually what by far most Muslims believe. But the thing with most Muslims is, they believe that ISIS is a proxy of the west, USA, Germany, England and the rest of EU are cited as the perpetrators for the existence of ISIS.

This opinion is compounded upon by the western main-stream media and politicians themselves. For instance they insist on calling these terrorists: 'Islamic State' (they don't even say IS or ISIS, they spell it out) or say 'Islamic terrorism'. Dutch state media, every time says 'Islamic State' and I believe they do this for a reason. This infuriates me every time I hear this to be honest. (I never watch Russian news, but I'm sure they use this same rhetoric as well)

When there is some attack somewhere in USA or EU, everyone just blames Islam on social media. And this isn't at all unexpected if you look at how main-stream media is deliberately or undeliberately (I personally think it's deliberate at this point) try to relate terrorism with Islam, fueling Islamophobia. And when all this stuff happens, Muslims will start to feel even more alienated. I don't at all feel alienated in my daily life in the Netherlands, but everytime I watch Dutch news, I start feeling alienated. I made a personal decision to avoid watching Dutch news for this reason. Social media is even worse.

On facebook, a high profile American pro-Trump reporter (he had a Greek name, I can't remember it) posted a video of some Muslim guy screaming pro DAESH stuff in Germany. In the comments some guy wrote something in the lines of: EU needs another hitler to kill all those Muslims, and this comment had more than 60 replies by far all of them agreeing and compounding on this statement. Maybe they deleted the statements criticizing this comment, I don't know, but it wasn't a good look for sure.

Islamophobic groups on the other hand blame mainstream media for not criticizing Islam enough, this would make it even worse. The thing here is, Islamophobia is something that DAESH actually wants. That is their motivation behind terrorist attacks in the west. Make Islamophobia grow, make the Muslims feel alienated, and they will fall pray to DAESH propaganda. It is a vicious circle that DAESH will and is exploiting. DAESH deliberately targets those that have a limited knowledge of the religion to join their cause.

Calling DAESH; IS, Islamic State ISIS etc. actually serves DAESH. DAESH actually loves to be called this, it loves it that Islam is being related to terrorism by media and politicians, because this puts them in a better situation to propagate their ideology. On the other hand they hate being called DAESH, because apparently this word resembles some insult in the Arabic language.

Normally I never cared much for Dutch politics. I saw them all as a viable option to govern. But recently with Wilders's party, I as a Muslim started feeling underrepresented. Wilders claims all kinds of bull about the religion and there is no one that corrects him. So Muslims like me, will search for a party that will correct him on this matter, even if it is just to balance it out. You see where I am getting at with this? If a person feels left out or alienated, he will start looking for alternatives. All we can do is, hope that this person isn't vulnerable enough to fall pray to groups like DAESH. Same goes for the other side of the spectrum with neo-Nazis as well, like these guys for instance:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eo-nazi-network-army-bundeswehr-a7714721.html

 

[T-123456]

LOL who told you we won't be trading with Europe? You think not being in the E. U means we will stop all trade with Europe? For your info not all European countries are part of the E. U.
You kind of remind me of all the articles I have seen about how people were saying Britain's economy was going to collapse into oblivion if we don't adopt the EURO currency when we were about to get into the European union. Yet our currency not only remained strong but became the world's third largest reserve currency and among the world's most traded even to this day.
As iIsaid before, negotiations will take place and a deal will be reached and life will continue. Britain won't collapse into oblivion and poverty like many have being predicting for decades. There's more chance of that happening to countries in your region than Britain. So I won't worry much about this. We will overcome that like many other events in history, the email are always period of trials in life, things can't always be smooth

Why not make a thread about how it all works,many people think that if or when you are out of the EU,you'll become an isolated ''poor'' country?
They dont know that you are still an EU member until at least 2019(it can be extended if all members agree),you could explain article 50 etc.
The deals that have to be made and so on.

 

[salarsikander]

Just Realpolitik, not for love of Turkey. BREXIT = SURVIVE by all means

Exactly and turkey playing its card right will get the best deal outmof it

 

[mike2000 is back]

Here is my two cents about this issue.

I believe groups like DAESH (ISIS) etc are the biggest enemy of Islam, and that is actually what by far most Muslims believe. But the thing with most Muslims is, they believe that ISIS is a proxy of the west, USA, Germany, England and the rest of EU are cited as the perpetrators for the existence of ISIS.

This opinion is compounded upon by the western main-stream media and politicians themselves. For instance they insist on calling these terrorists: 'Islamic State' (they don't even say IS or ISIS, they spell it out) or say 'Islamic terrorism'. Dutch state media, every time says 'Islamic State' and I believe they do this for a reason. This infuriates me every time I hear this to be honest. (I never watch Russian news, but I'm sure they use this same rhetoric as well)

When there is some attack somewhere in USA or EU, everyone just blames Islam on social media. And this isn't at all unexpected if you look at how main-stream media is deliberately or undeliberately (I personally think it's deliberate at this point) try to relate terrorism with Islam, fueling Islamophobia. And when all this stuff happens, Muslims will start to feel even more alienated. I don't at all feel alienated in my daily life in the Netherlands, but everytime I watch Dutch news, I start feeling alienated. I made a personal decision to avoid watching Dutch news for this reason. Social media is even worse.

On facebook, a high profile American pro-Trump reporter (he had a Greek name, I can't remember it) posted a video of some Muslim guy screaming pro DAESH stuff in Germany. In the comments some guy wrote something in the lines of: EU needs another hitler to kill all those Muslims, and this comment had more than 60 replies by far all of them agreeing and compounding on this statement. Maybe they deleted the statements criticizing this comment, I don't know, but it wasn't a good look for sure.

Islamophobic groups on the other hand blame mainstream media for not criticizing Islam enough, this would make it even worse. The thing here is, Islamophobia is something that DAESH actually wants. That is their motivation behind terrorist attacks in the west. Make Islamophobia grow, make the Muslims feel alienated, and they will fall pray to DAESH propaganda. It is a vicious circle that DAESH will and is exploiting. DAESH deliberately targets those that have a limited knowledge of the religion to join their cause.

Calling DAESH; IS, Islamic State ISIS etc. actually serves DAESH. DAESH actually loves to be called this, it loves it that Islam is being related to terrorism by media and politicians, because this puts them in a better situation to propagate their ideology. On the other hand they hate being called DAESH, because apparently this word resembles some insult in the Arabic language.

Normally I never cared much for Dutch politics. I saw them all as a viable option to govern. But recently with Wilders's party, I as a Muslim started feeling underrepresented. Wilders claims all kinds of bull about the religion and there is no one that corrects him. So Muslims like me, will search for a party that will correct him on this matter, even if it is just to balance it out. You see where I am getting at with this? If a person feels left out or alienated, he will start looking for alternatives. All we can do is, hope that this person isn't vulnerable enough to fall pray to groups like DAESH. Same goes for the other side of the spectrum with neo-Nazis as well, like these guys for instance:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eo-nazi-network-army-bundeswehr-a7714721.html

well, some people will always hold certain erroneous views about world issues(especially events in the middle east). You say most muslims believe ISIS(some also believe Al Qaeda, Al Shebab, Boko Haram etc) is a U.S/British/French proxy. i.e sponsored and engineered by the West. Well, i have heard that as well, eventhough we all know that's bullocks. Some of these people also belîeve Turkey was/is a main sponsor of ISIS and one of its main benefactors. In fact i have seen people saying ISIS is an Iranian/Israeli creation since ISIS has never attacked these two countries. lol So there you go with all the types of conspiracy theories some people believe, that should have no effect on more sane/credible people. So i don't see why you say our media calling ISIS by it's name is the reason these naive people believe ISIS is a western creation (or for some a Turkish/Israeli/Iranian creation), i fail to see the connection between these two.

We calling ISIS by it's name(something every Muslim country and every member here does.) has nothing to do with Islamophobia. so i don't understand why this infuriates you. Are you also infuriated when Turkey,Pakistanis,Chinese,Arab,Iranian news media call ISIS by its name? So i don't understand your point.We also call Boko Haram by its name,if it was just for islamophobia as you said we will be calling them Islamic state of Boko Haram or nigeria.lol), same with Al shebab, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad group, Muslim brotherhood etc etc. we all call them by their known name, same as we call Lord's resistance army(the ruthless rebel terror group in Uganda) by it's name. So i don't understand how that should infuriate you or muslims.

Moreover, the vast majority of our people in the west know the majority of muslims here are peaceful and not terrorists, else believe me the situation here will be different with riots ,lynching, adoption of laws to persecute them on a large scale etc. But there is none of that in the vast majority of western countries. In fact Muslims countries are less tolerant,abuse human rights of non-Muslims and Muslims alike far more than anything you can find here. So will that infuriate you to the point of being resentful towards them as well?

There are social issues in every country, everything depends on the government having and implementing laws to tackle and address such issues and prevent others from abusing the law. So i don't see how Wilder's will cause muslims in the Netherlands to hate the country that welcomed and gave them a better life in which they now live in. He hasn't called for violence against Muslims or for them to be killed or whatever. By contrast he walks and live with police and security 24/hours 7 IN HIS OWN COUNTRY since there are some Dutch muslims who have vowed to kill him for his views just like they the case of Kurt Westergaard, the Danish cartoonist who who was the subject of several murder plots by danish muslims for his drawings. Or the case of Swedish artist Lars Vilks, who received death threats and was the subject of a nnumber of assisination attempts after a drawing of his was published in a Swedish newspaper,same with Charlie hebdo etc. Things like this also make some people angry as society there isn't used to seeing people being killed for drawings or for making controversial remarks . So i believe people should be more tolerant towards others views without the need for violence. Afterall, i'm sure Dutch society is very tolerant and muslims are very well treated there ,else there wont be living there anymore, with many more wanting to immigrate to the country. There is only a fringe group who holds radical views like the ones in germany on the link you posted, Government and society there don't tolerate them and they are dealt with by the law/courts.

In this situation, i fail to see how we alienate Muslims here, if they feel alienated here then they will be even more alienated when they travel back to their home countries who have far worse human rights abuses/laws. So to me the 'alienation/oppression' is not a good enough excuse.

 

[Mr.Department]

since ISIS has never attacked these two countries

I made a similiar comment and asked me, why there never happened an attack in the weakest chain links e.g. Greece or some Eastern EU countries. For sure not cause their Security Forces are extreme effective.
Without mentioning a conspiracy theory, there are many question marks in mey brain.
I can say honestly say to you that I heard from a British expert in a four eyes discussion that teams of
" International BlackOps" in ISIS uniforms forced Turkey to leave the tomb of Süleyman SAH (UN respected Turkish Territory comparable UK bases in Cyprus) and killed many scouts and FSA support troops of the little Turkish presence at the Tomb. He is a trustable source.

I know that this discussion derivates "off topic" but I had to commnet you.

 

[xenon54 out]

Huh......our defence giants have been involved in Turkey defence industries(including deals like this one) way before there was any talk about BREXIT or before it even happened. So I don't understand your point. Seems to some people, every single deal we sign after Brexit will be justified on Brexit. Lol well if it makes people feel better then so be it.

As for your point about BREXIT =SURVIVE by all means. What do you mean by that? If country like Turkey who is far behind/less advanced compared to Great Britain can survive why do you think we can't survive? Lol
Britain being developed, industrialised and advanced with one of the lowest unemployment rate in Europe and the world(reason many Europeans migrate here for work) isn't entirely because of the European Union but because of our own strengths first and foremost
There are many European union countries who are struggling economically despite being part of the union. So it's depends on management /Policies, laws, work ethics, culture, comparative advantage, skills, strengths etc. So we will be OK, don't worry.

Exactly, some Eastern European countries are member of EU for decades but they still didnt reach the standarts of western Europe, people here give refugees the shit but when you look at migration in Europe the number of people who migrate from Eastern Europe to Western Europe isnt that less either if not even bigger, the reason being no jobs, no opportunities, no perpective...

But then you have countries like Switzerland or Norway who are doing just fine without being EU member so it is indeed about work ethics, laws etc etc.
People portray EU as if it was some kind of Gospel thats naive thinking to say the least.

We have a saying here ''you can put a golden saddle to a donkey, but a donkey stays a donkey'' (no offence).