Religion vs. Reason

[Iltutmish]

I saw a lecture from Hoodbhouy about beauty of Mathematics and thought finally.... but hardly a quarter into the lecture he again began pushing his agenda on role of Islam, governance, bla bla bla... like a broken record.

Yes. You can be a good mathematician but have no clue how to run a society with values. This is the problem of the people nowadays. „Scientists“ have become their false gods who know everything and should decide in every subject.

 

[313ghazi]

remove islam declare Pakistan ethist Will that

Then its the problem of the people. You remove Islam they will find some other way to miss guide people. The problem is illiteracy and oppression of common man not religion

Apparently the 1.5 billion people living in a secular non Islamic open sewer next door don't register with these sorts. How could they - they exist as evidence counter to the narrative that Islam is the root of their problems. I wish these people would have the courage to just come out as atheists.

 

[Naofumi]

People knew how to perform the rituals without asking the „literates“ and in every day they were busy with their own stuff, like surviving. Education is important in Islam and encouraged. And yes, how many people have ever read the Quran, how many are ready to act on that? This is the problem.

Several scholars (Jose Casenova etc) have opined that religious orthodoxy have penetrated the population more with increasing literacy - a simple farmer in 16th century is much less likely to know all the duas required for a proper Salat than now.

People also differ on that. It was the eroding power of CATHOLICS which lead to the advanced science and free markets. There is something called „Protestant work ethics“, you may check also the calvinists out, who believe that the rich are loved by god...

Landed clergy was composed of Catholics and Protestantism itself originating as a reformation when the religion was waning due to propagation of rationalism during the enlightenment.

Shrugging off Enlightenment rationalism, Protestants embraced romanticism, with the stress on the personal and the invisible. Entirely fresh ideas as expressed by Friedrich Schleiermacher, Soren Kierkegaard, Albrecht Ritschl and Adolf von Harnack restored the intellectual power of theology. There was more attention to historic creeds such as the Augsburg, the Heidelberg, and the Westminster confessions. The stirrings of pietism on the Continent, and evangelicalism in Britain expanded enormously, leading the devout away from an emphasis on formality and ritual and toward an inner sensibility toward personal relationship to Christ. From the religious point of view of the typical Protestant, major changes were underway in terms of a much more personalized religiosity that focused on the individual more than the church or the ceremony.

The religion sets some restrictions yes (you have to pay zakat for example). Adam Smith has not invented free markets, free markets are created every time til a governmental body comes and starts regulating and taxing it. You can checkout Ibn Khaldun (centuries before Adam smith) regarding free markets and stuff.

Man, you can do revisionism all you want (like @jamahir does for socialistic Islam), free market is a modern concept, ancient world was feudalistic with slave trades and all.

First of all the times you are talking about was the time when literacy include verbal knowledge. For example Quran used to get memorized by people who dont know how to read and right.

Secondly, many scientist of that time were religious in nature.

THird you always compare societies by the standard of that time. So at that time reading and writing was not common but it doesnt means people were illiterate. As knowledge at that time was transfer verbally due to lack of printing press writing books was extremely difficult.

Fourth Zakir Naik and Israr Ahmed are not evangelist its a term strictly referred for Christianity and Islam has no link to that.

What are the basis of your claim mases had zero knowledge about the religion?
Basis that people couldnot recite dua or quran?
Basis of literacy was 10% when concept of literacy was entirely different back then

I am not here to spoon-feed you, no one says literacy having one definition but still the number of local madarsa/schools were limited to urban areas. Don't bother to ping me unless you can do a little google search yourself

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/4735593_Literacy_and_the_'great_divide'_in_the_Islamic_world_1300-1800​

Organized religions are a degeneration. Islam doesn’t need a clergy. There are Hadiths condemning the clergy of the other book religions. My interpretation of Islam is that the most things we see today are constructed by the different sects and Mullahs for different reasons. Islam is simple so keep it simple.

If you want to reform Islam by removing clergy then we are on the same page but even you admit, some reformation is required.

How could they - they exist as evidence counter to the narrative that Islam is the root of their problems. I wish these people would have the courage to just come out as atheists.

India too is a deeply religious society, organised religion is a bane.

 

[Bilal.]

Yes. You can be a good mathematician but have no clue how to run a society with values. This is the problem of the people nowadays. „Scientists“ have become their false gods who know everything and should decide in every subject.

Just as a brilliant philosopher or theologian would make a no good Physicist and would make a fool of himself if he starts to fancy himself as one and uses his position to push his ideas in the field of Physics.

 

[steelTalons]

Prove it.

There are many instances against this theory. till 17th century muslims were following religion and were the most advance and was dominating the world.

ok, i dont even gonna touch this topic with a 10ft pole, but all this muslim golden age crap is spoon-fed too oversimplified to the masses. Anyone care to study why was this golden age so short lived and then utterly destroyed?? anyone care to study what happened to the muslim scientists of that era?? were they so appreciated in their own time like they are today?? or were they the subject of fatwas and witch hunted by molvis of their time ? Muslims today will never rise to any significance because we are too proud to see things objectively and admit our own shortcomings.

 

[313ghazi]

If you want to reform Islam by removing clergy then we are on the same page but even you admit, some reformation is required.

The reformation required is within our society, not within our religious values or practices.

Our governing class are billionaires whilst a third of the population live under the poverty line. That is a social reform that is required. it is a situation that is contradictory to our religious value, but those values are not held by our billionaire ruling elite.

Our universities are archaeic and politicised, they focus on politics, rote learning and becoming exam factories to generate revenue rather than teaching skills and generating research. That is not a religious issue, it is a pedagogical one. It's one of basic professionalism.

Our education system at large suffers from the same flaws, but replace the elitist politics, with just rampant corruption and neglect.

Our system of governance is based on selecting men and women to lead us who seek power, yet Islamically we are warned against this. We are told to appoint people to power who are qualified to rule, who have the character, political support and strength to rule effectively. This is a political problem.

Our Industrial base suffers the after effects of being gutted by the quasi-commie ZA Bhutto in the 70's. The swathes of public ownership as an excuse to give jobs to party cronies has hampered us to this day, especially as it's protected by corrupt judges even today.

There are endless examples. People who hate Islam use Islam as an excuse to cover up standard societal ills all third world countries suffer from. Why? Because most of them are the beneficiaries of the current system.

ok, i dont even gonna touch this topic with a 10ft pole, but all this muslim golden age crap is spoon-fed too oversimplified to the masses. Anyone care to study why was this golden age so short lived and then utterly destroyed?? anyone care to study what happened to the muslim scientists of that era?? were they so appreciated in their own time like they are today?? or were they the subject of fatwas and witch hunted by molvis of their time ? Muslims today will never rise to any significance because we are too proud to see things objectively and admit our own shortcomings.

The mongols? Sacking of Baghdad?

 

[Mutakalim]

Quoting some verses of Quran about significance of reason, logic and understanding; to expel doubts:

1. Will you not use your reason? Al Baqarah 118
2. He explain His signs to those who understand. Younas 5
3. Do not follow blindly what you do not know to be true. Al Asra 36
4. Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason. An Nahl 12
5. And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming. Baqarah 78
6. We have created many Jinn and people who are destined for hell, with hearts they do not use for comprehension, eyes they do not use for sight, ears they do not use for hearing. They are like cattle, no, even further astray: these are the one who are entirely heedless. Al Aaraf 179
7. And those who have been given knowledge see that what is revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, and it guides to the path of the Exalted in Might, the Praiseworthy. Sheba 6

 

[Naofumi]

The reformation required is within our society, not within our religious values or practices.

And what about clergy? People like who say this?
https://www.darulifta-deoband.com/home/en/Womens-Issues/21031
https://www.darulifta-deoband.com/home/en/Womens-Issues/382

People who hate Islam use Islam as an excuse to cover up standard societal ills all third world countries suffer from.

Third world atheist East Asians became first world because they never did politics on Babri Masjid, anti-Ahmadiyya laws etc.​

 

[Mutakalim]

Another scientist, lucratively employed at The Holy Quran Research Foundation, proposed that taming “jinns could solve the country’s energy-related problems” as the creatures are made of fire.

What is your point?

 

[TNT]

Hoodboy is a moron suffering from inferiority complex. He is one of those libtard idiots who would blame religion for everything and not hos own stupidity.

The heading of the thread is also stupid. There is no clash between religion and reason. Infact those who are smart enough can see the signs and find the creator. The morons keep finding excuses.

 

[jamahir]

We were center of science and education as well. Europe use to come to Istanbol and Baghdad to learn science and technology.

And what happened in the present ?

When Neil Armstrong returned from his moon trip he was cornered by some Muslim misguided reporters who asked him if he heard the azaan on the moon. That is the silly state of Muslims now. All prayer and no think.

anyone care to study what happened to the muslim scientists of that era?? were they so appreciated in their own time like they are today?? or were they the subject of fatwas and witch hunted by molvis of their time ?

I believe those scientists were freer then than now. At present Taliban-loving people like @Areesh are the reason that though there are 50 Muslim-majority countries there are no technological advancements like a Muslim space station or even a Muslim colony on Mars, no Muslim computer operating system and microprocessor and no Muslim cures for conditions like aging, AIDS and cancers.

Man, you can do revisionism all you want (like @jamahir does for socialistic Islam)

I only describe Islam as to how it is in truth. You can read that thread of mine.

And what about clergy? People like who say this?
https://www.darulifta-deoband.com/home/en/Womens-Issues/21031
https://www.darulifta-deoband.com/home/en/Womens-Issues/382

Let's call our wise maulana here - @Areesh.

 

[313ghazi]

And what about clergy? People like who say this?
https://www.darulifta-deoband.com/home/en/Womens-Issues/21031
https://www.darulifta-deoband.com/home/en/Womens-Issues/382

Third world atheist East Asians became first world because they never did politics on Babri Masjid, anti-Ahmadiyya laws etc.​

No they didn't. Places like Cambodia, Thailand, North Korea are not heaven on earth. Why? North Korea is incredibly atheist and communist. Why is it still a shithole? The answer has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with economics, politics and wider society.

As for the two examples you posted. For every idiot who thinks cow p1ss will cure corona virus there is another idiot in the UK who thinks it's caused by 5G waves. Societies are successful regardless of their idiots.

And what happened in the present ?

When Neil Armstrong returned from his moon trip he was cornered by some Muslim misguided reporters who asked him if he heard the azaan on the moon. That is the silly state of Muslims now. All prayer and no think.



I believe those scientists were freer then than now. At present Taliban-loving people like @Areesh are the reason that though there are 50 Muslim-majority countries there are no technological advancements like a Muslim space station or even a Muslim colony on Mars, no Muslim computer operating system and microprocessor and no Muslim cures for conditions like aging, AIDS and cancers.



I only describe Islam as to how it is in truth. You can read that thread of mine.



Let's call our wise maulana here - @Areesh.

You're having a dig at @Areesh what have you contributed to society? You personally?

 

[steelTalons]

The mongols? Sacking of Baghdad?

So muslims started hating maths cuz some barbarians burned a building in some far away city in a vast empire??
No my friend.To put it simply(and inadequately), Its the molvi today, and yesterday it was the molvi as well. When you have people like Imam Ghazali declaring philospohy as haram and mathematics as a ladder to apostasy, you bet the common folk wont be interested in studying them. That was a very different and complex time, and its a far too tedious discussion to be having on a forum like this..

 

[jamahir]

You're having a dig at @Areesh what have you contributed to society? You personally?

I developed the first simple operating system in India some years ago and am currently designing a novel microprocessor which is the first local design to India.

After this I plan to participate in advancements in agriculture.

What is your point?

His point is self-explanatory.

 

[Iltutmish]

I developed the first simple operating system in India some years ago and am currently designing a novel microprocessor which is the first local design to India.

Impressive (no sarcasm or irony intended). Have you somehow managed to make money with that?