Reforms in voting system-suggestions

[Argus Panoptes]

Given the recent elections, and claims of rigging in several constituencies, there come to my mind several questions about the ballot papers themselves.

1. All the ballot papers seem to be printed on ordinary paper with no serial numbers or any other information that can be used to trace a particular ballot paper. Why is that?

2. Given the above, how do we know just how many ballot papers were printed and distributed for each seat?

3. Were there any safeguards to prevent extra ballot papers being printed and prepared beforehand?

4. Is there a way to audit the production, distribution and security of the ballot papers throughout the process?

This information should be made public for all parties to examine and follow up.



@Awesome @nuclearpak @Aeronaut @Elmo @TaimiKhan @Oscar

Any thoughts on this please?

 

[Awesome]

Given the recent elections, and claims of rigging in several constituencies, there come to my mind several questions about the ballot papers themselves.

1. All the ballot papers seem to be printed on ordinary paper with no serial numbers or any other information that can be used to trace a particular ballot paper. Why is that?

2. Given the above, how do we know just how many ballot papers were printed and distributed for each seat?

3. Were there any safeguards to prevent extra ballot papers being printed and prepared beforehand?

4. Is there a way to audit the production, distribution and security of the ballot papers throughout the process?

This information should be made public for all parties to examine and follow up.



@Awesome @nuclearpak @Aeronaut @Elmo @TaimiKhan

Any thoughts on this please?

Which is why I say EVM should be used... To put these checks on paper, you need A LOT of processes and adherence to them. You program these processes in and no way anyone can override it.

If PTI gets KPK, I think the FIRST thing they should do is ensure KPK at least gets EVMs. Ballot boxes, ballot papers is a joke in 2013 yaar.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Which is why I say EVM should be used... To put these checks on paper, you need A LOT of processes and adherence to them. You program these processes in and no way anyone can override it.

If PTI gets KPK, I think the FIRST thing they should do is ensure KPK at least gets EVMs. Ballot boxes, ballot papers is a joke in 2013 yaar.

This should be a two step process.

1. We have to understand what happened with the ballot papers for this election.

2. We need to pressure all parties and the government to implement an EVM with an auditable paper trail to prevent hacking for the next elections, or implement correct safeguards for the ballot papers that are acceptable and visible to all.

This needs to be done now so that we can be ready for the next elections, not three months before the elections, just like the overseas Pakistanis voting fiasco this time around.

 

[saiyan0321]

EVM are the way to go? yes with all the above rigging is easy, which is why perhaps change is required in election methods. Maybe in the next election we will see these machines.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Which is why I say EVM should be used...

Give me EVM and I can wipe out memory, EVM is also prone to manipulation.

How about a machine readable electronic card with chip delivered to every person registered for voting swipe it data enters goes to NADRA...Data is locked in no one can delete it and person can confirm who they voted for. I believe there are 101 ways..

 

[saiyan0321]

This needs to be done now so that we can be ready for the next elections, not three months before the elections, just like the overseas Pakistanis voting fiasco this time around.

What do you think yaar. it wont be done or started now. What i am afraid of with all the clean elections talk we will see the same method next time.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

EVM are the way to go? yes with all the above rigging is easy, which is why perhaps change is required in election methods. Maybe in the next election we will see these machines.

Give me EVM and I can wipe out memory, EVM is also prone to manipulation.

What do you think yaar. it wont be done or started now. What i am afraid of with all the clean elections talk we will see the same method next time.

An EVM with a printed hardcopy is the way to go forward, but we have to start now to be ready for the next elections, if fair elections are deemed as important by all parties.

 

[Hyde]

Given the recent elections, and claims of rigging in several constituencies, there come to my mind several questions about the ballot papers themselves.

1. All the ballot papers seem to be printed on ordinary paper with no serial numbers or any other information that can be used to trace a particular ballot paper. Why is that?

2. Given the above, how do we know just how many ballot papers were printed and distributed for each seat?

3. Were there any safeguards to prevent extra ballot papers being printed and prepared beforehand?

4. Is there a way to audit the production, distribution and security of the ballot papers throughout the process?

This information should be made public for all parties to examine and follow up.



@Awesome @nuclearpak @Aeronaut @Elmo @TaimiKhan

Any thoughts on this please?

The material seemed ordinary but they were not standard A4 size. Each ballot paper came with counterpart which was kept by ECP. Your national identity card number was written down on it and each ballot came with the serial number (if I m not wrong) and signed by the Presiding Officer

Each counterpart of ballot paper had the finger prints of thumb and ECP says the have the technology to trace every duplicate vote within 15 days by matching the finger prints... They could be right or wrong

 

[Argus Panoptes]

The material seemed ordinary but they were not standard A4 size. Each ballot paper came with counterpart which was kept by ECP. Your national identity card number was written down on it and each ballot came with the serial number and signed by the Presiding Officer

But why do none of the torn papers show any of that record?

 

[Jango]

The FBISE papers used for matric exams are better than these ballot papers, in terms of traceability and prevention of forgery.

As all the members said, EVM is the way to go, there is a long time before the next elections, so alot of time to formulate a new way. NADRA has a huge infrastructure in place as far as citizen record is concerned, just use finger print verification.

A person goes into the station, gets his finger scanned and the computer then stores the info. Guy goes to polling booth and then selects candidate through the touch screen or monitor and mouse.

The data in urban centres and other populated areas goes to a central mainframe in the province. Results of around 20 constituencies go into a mainframe somewhere near, for example results for Gujranwala, Lahore, and adjoining areas get accumulated in a mainframe in Lahore. Similarly, the results from Sialkot, Gujrat and other adjoining areas get accumulated in gujrat mainframe.

These groups of 20 then go to a provincial mainframe...

The mainframes then also keep a electronic record of who has voted...if a person has voted, his vote is registered country wide or province wide or even city wide.

More deliberation this can further fine tune the system.

The advantage is that no more premature results since result is accumulated by computer and not corrupt returning officers..., the presiding officer wont have a clue this way as to who voted for whom...he will not be the one who is compiling results. no more fake votes either. The polling officers will be given a FOB which constantly changes the code that will need to be fed in the system, then the officer will need to put in a second thing for the system to be activated. If somebody is going to ransack the station, the presiding officer would simply shut down the system and it would not be activated unless those 2 particulars are provided. When the system is shut down, the central control gets a warning so everybody would know that something fishy is going on there.

Those riggers are not even matric pass, so they most probably cant hack computers.

The material seemed ordinary but they were not standard A4 size. Each ballot paper came with counterpart which was kept by ECP. Your national identity card number was written down on it and each ballot came with the serial number (if I m not wrong) and signed by the Presiding Officer

Each counterpart of ballot paper had the finger prints of thumb and ECP says the have the technology to trace every duplicate vote within 15 days by matching the finger prints... They could be right or wrong

Bhai jan, people took away whole books, the corrupt presiding officers did not make a counter stamp...look at Ibrar Ul Haw yesterday, he had a whole book of fake votes, no counter no nothing. According to him, they have sent bundles from 50 stations to ECP while they have retained a couple as proof.

 

[Jango]

Jo ho gaya so ho gaya, lets sit together with the ECP for future reforms.

Most people have misunderstood the PTI official stance on white paper, IK clearly said that this isn't a rondi but a white paper to identify problems and then provide alternatives to it and make it better for future, it will be sent to ECP.

Argus, can we change the title to "Changes in voting method" or something similar since that is the direction we are going in.

 

[Awesome]

Give me EVM and I can wipe out memory, EVM is also prone to manipulation.

How about a machine readable electronic card with chip delivered to every person registered for voting swipe it data enters goes to NADRA...Data is locked in no one can delete it and person can confirm who they voted for. I believe there are 101 ways..

India also had the same issue... With EVM at least har maja gaama can't do it. 1% Pakistani itne cheetay niklainge who can do it and encryption ko torna koi Asaan kaam nahi, some encryptions claim to take several years to break by brute force attacks on Super computers.

 

[Luftwaffe]

India also had the same issue... With EVM at least har maja gaama can't do it. 1% Pakistani itne cheetay niklainge who can do it and encryption ko torna koi Asaan kaam nahi, some encryptions claim to take several years to break by brute force attacks on Super computers.

Agreed can't be done on mass scale but the equipment it self should be of top quality and closed architecture...reminds me of Apple Inc. I remember the man in india who showed how to wipe memory and stuff was arrested.

 

[Jango]

Agreed can't be done on mass scale but the equipment it self should be of top quality and closed architecture...reminds me of Apple Inc. I remember the man in india who showed how to wipe memory and stuff was arrested.

EVM is atleast a step forward than this Stone Age system.

Abhi 5 saal hain, more countermeasures can be brought in to go along with voter finger print, then equipment can be bought, proper legislation in place.

Aakhir overseas nay bhi vote EVM say hi karna hai na next elections main. So the overseas system can also be employed inside the country.

Any suggestion you folks can give to my idea?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Jo ho gaya so ho gaya, lets sit together with the ECP for future reforms.

Most people have misunderstood the PTI official stance on white paper, IK clearly said that this isn't a rondi but a white paper to identify problems and then provide alternatives to it and make it better for future, it will be sent to ECP.

Argus, can we change the title to "Changes in voting method" or something similar since that is the direction we are going in.

That seems like a good idea considering the content of the thread.