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Reducing poverty: India well ahead of Pakistan: World Bank-IMF report

ISLAMABAD (April 09 2008): A new World Bank-IMF report said that India is well ahead of Pakistan in reducing poverty and all South Asian nations are required to do more to keep GDP growth rate at least at 7 percent to achieve millennium development goals (MDGs).

The report, which was launched here at WB office on Tuesday, warned that most countries in South Asia will fall short on the MDGs, a set of globally agreed development goals with due date of 2015.

Much of the world is set to cut extreme poverty in half by 2015, prospects are gravest for the goals of reducing child and maternal mortality, with serious shortfalls also likely in primary school completion, nutrition and sanitation goals. The Global Monitoring Report: MDGs and the Environment-agenda for inclusive and sustainable development stresses the link between environment and development and calls for urgent action on climate change. Pakistan loses around 4 percent of the GDP due to environmental degradation.

"India is doing well on poverty reduction because of its about 9 percent growth for the past some years. Poverty reduction has been less in Pakistan," said Zia Qureshi, the lead author of the report. However, he remained silent on the Pakistan's poverty estimates in which it was claimed that the number of people living below poverty line had been decreased from 34 percent to 24 percent.

Progress towards the MDGs differs drastically across countries, regions, and income groups, according to the report. While most of the poverty reduction between 1990 and 2004 took place in East Asia and Pacific, South Asia would contribute the most to global poverty reduction in the next decade.

However, South Asia will not reach the goal of halving malnutrition rates. In fact, South Asia has the world's highest incidence of child malnutrition. India's malnutrition rate is double than the African average.

The report opines that donors must expedite aid delivery in line with commitments. Sizeable shortfalls loom in the current official development assistance (ODA). Qureshi said ODA comprises just only 8 percent of the aid inflows coming into the developing countries.

Though the overall aid landscape is expanding, ODA-estimated at US $103.7 billion in 2007-has stalled. To meet the G-8 promises to increase aid by $50 billion by 2010, the ODA size must have expanded, said the report.

In 2007, gross concessional flows from multilateral development banks crossed $12 billion, a 10.3 percent increase driven by the International Development Association (IDA). While Asia continued to receive almost half of these flows, Africa received 45 percent in 2007, up from 37 percent in 2000.

The rise in food prices poses a challenge to developing countries. But at the same time, this provides an opportunity as well. The developing as well as the developed countries should liberalise agriculture trade. In the last three years, the world average wheat price has increased by 180 percent. Similar increases are also being witnessed in the prices of rice, other grains and pulses etc.

"This year action on the MDGs, I am particularly concerned about the risks of failing to meet the goal of reducing hunger and malnutrition, the forgotten MDG," said Robert B. Zoellick, the WB president.

As the report shows, reducing malnutrition has a multiplier effect, contributing to success in other MDGs including maternal health, infant mortality and education, he added in written statement.

The growth momentum will have to be sustained and broadened in developing countries in the face of financial turmoil. Developing countries' growth will ease to 6.7 percent, but persistent financial market turmoil and knock-on-effects on growth pose a significant downside risks.

The number of people living on under $1/day in the developing world declined by 278 million between 1990 and 2004, and a stunning 150 million in the last five years of that period.

Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]
 
I don't think India is ahead in poverty alleviation. They have a lower per capita income and GDP and on top of that Pakistan has a more equitable income distribution curve too if I am not mistaken. :disagree:
 
I don't think India is ahead in poverty alleviation. They have a lower per capita income and GDP and on top of that Pakistan has a more equitable income distribution curve too if I am not mistaken. :disagree:

india has lower GDP per capita than pak? where did you get that info?

according to GDP - per capita (PPP) 2007 country rankings - Flags, Maps, Economy, Geography, Climate, Natural Resources, Current Issues, International Agreements, Population, Social Statistics, Political System in 2007 india's GDP per capita was $3700 (rank 118 in the world) and pakistan's was $2600 (rank 125)

accoding to https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2004.html India's GDP per capita was $2700 and pakisatn's was $2600

and here is a table from List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia showing the GDP per capita of all countries according to International Monetary Fund, worldbank and CIA (world factbook). In all of them, India is placed above Pakistan.
 
India has more income inequalities, with the few rich industrialists pushing up the per capita income due to their billions of rupees of wealth. India also has higher rates of malnutrition than Pakistan.

India has a shorter life expectancy at birth. There's a lot of factors that need to be taken into account.
 
India has more income inequalities, with the few rich industrialists pushing up the per capita income due to their billions of rupees of wealth. India also has higher rates of malnutrition than Pakistan.

India has a shorter life expectancy at birth. There's a lot of factors that need to be taken into account.

that maybe true, but India is currently doing more to combat poverty than pakistan which mean that the rate of decrease of poverty is higher in india than pak.
 
india has lower GDP per capita than pak? where did you get that info?

according to GDP - per capita (PPP) 2007 country rankings - Flags, Maps, Economy, Geography, Climate, Natural Resources, Current Issues, International Agreements, Population, Social Statistics, Political System in 2007 india's GDP per capita was $3700 (rank 118 in the world) and pakistan's was $2600 (rank 125)

accoding to https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2004.html India's GDP per capita was $2700 and pakisatn's was $2600

and here is a table from List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia showing the GDP per capita of all countries according to International Monetary Fund, worldbank and CIA (world factbook). In all of them, India is placed above Pakistan.

I got my figures from the IMF a couple years back, I guess they changed a bit since then however relying on the CIA for anything like this is ridiculous--the analysts there seem like they have been sampling too much of their smuggled asian narcotics.

The fact is that India leads pakistan when it comes to HIV infections per capita, abject poverty per capita(less than $1 and $2 a day in income), severe malnourishment per capita, murder per capita, prostitution per capita, gutter cleaners per capita, homelessness per capita, tuberculosis per capita....its a much more poverty stricken place than pakistan is--and this is provable statistically.
 
Also, according to the IMF,

List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the per capita of Pakistan is $909 while that of India is $965. Everyone knows India has the world's most uneven and inequitable society plagued by discrimination, the caste system etc so it is ridiculous to assume that the lower levels of society in India are better off than Pakistan--it's not possible to even concieve as such. And a dollar in Pakistan can buy you more than a dollar in India can. Even the programmers in Pakistan work for less money than an equivalent Indian programmer does.
 
I got my figures from the IMF a couple years back, I guess they changed a bit since then however relying on the CIA for anything like this is ridiculous--the analysts there seem like they have been sampling too much of their smuggled asian narcotics.

The fact is that India leads pakistan when it comes to HIV infections per capita, abject poverty per capita(less than $1 and $2 a day in income), severe malnourishment per capita, murder per capita, prostitution per capita, gutter cleaners per capita, homelessness per capita, tuberculosis per capita....its a much more poverty stricken place than pakistan is--and this is provable statistically.

You do realize that this has nothing to do with India having done a better job in poverty reduction than Pakistan right? i.e. you would have to compare the rate of change and not absolute numbers.

maqsad said:
Everyone knows India has the world's most uneven and inequitable society
Do you have any evidence or statistics supporting this assertion? I would really like to see the breakdown.
 
Well to tell you the truth poverty, malnutritionsness and all the other facts may seem more in India than in Pakistan because they have a bigger population and a bigger role to play in world wide economy. There are more people in India than in Pakistan thus the ratio of poor people from India is more than Pakistan.

I hope you guys understand what i'm trying to say.:pakistan::pakistan:
 
You do realize that this has nothing to do with India having done a better job in poverty reduction than Pakistan right?

Yes I do realize that which is why I did not mention any rates or trends in my post but rather static figures which happen to be current today and also valid for the last few years going back.


i.e. you would have to compare the rate of change and not absolute numbers.

The only significance of rates in poverty reduction is if the rate of change keeps up the way it is until the static numbers change enough to the point where India's poverty is less than pakistan. Until that happens the rate of change merely plays with future probabilities of how things may be if everything keeps going the way it has suddenly started to go, trendwise.

Do you have any evidence or statistics supporting this assertion? I would really like to see the breakdown.

I never mentioned any statistics, when I refer to social stratification, discrimination, opression etc these are very hard to quantify. I am merely reciting popular opinion--that the indian/hindu social structure is one of the most uneven in the world and has been for thousands of years. This is a sociological characteristic for the most part, not an economic or statistical observation. Although I am sure I can back some or most of my assertions up, just not with neat and simple statistics.
 
I hope you guys understand what i'm trying to say.:pakistan::pakistan:

I don't think you have very strong comprehension of ratios, proportions and how simple division is used in producing these statistics so I suggest you delete your post before someone comes and rips it apart.
 
India has more income inequalities, with the few rich industrialists pushing up the per capita income due to their billions of rupees of wealth.

Rich class's fortunes is dependent upon the stock market.

The income inequality of India and Pakistan is similar from what I remember.

I have said this before, if the Indian grey economy is taken into account the income divide will be much more equitable.

India also has higher rates of malnutrition than Pakistan.

Possibly... (I am not aware of calorie requirement figures of either countries)

India has a shorter life expectancy at birth.

India's life expectancy has increased tremendously post-independence and is on the increase y-o-y basis, I am sure a similar trend is prevalent all over South Asia.

And, I believe, after China, India is ranked second in terms of the increase of life expectancy.

There's a lot of factors that need to be taken into account.

Absolutely but there always some basic factors which are used to gauge the overall picture.

India's poverty is mainly concentrated in BIMARU states, which have all the materials available to them for poverty alleviation(And development) except decent leadership/political will.

If states like Himachal, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, Assam, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Andamans, Jammu and Kashmir etc. can have low levels of poverty I see no reason then as to why states like UP, Bihar, Jharkhand, Orrisa etc. not do the same?

Encouraging news for India is that the states like Bihar, UP, Jharkhand, Orrisa which are the poverty centers have huge reserves of resources(human, natural etc), which are now being tapped. These states are already being pumped with billions of dollars of investments and the results of these investments will be seen in less than a decade.

PS: Definition of Poverty for India needs a rethink as it will be rendered redundant in the coming decade.
 
I got my figures from the IMF a couple years back, I guess they changed a bit since then however relying on the CIA for anything like this is ridiculous--the analysts there seem like they have been sampling too much of their smuggled asian narcotics.

in the last decade India's economy has increased by 2.5 times almost.

The fact is that India leads pakistan when it comes to HIV infections per capita, abject poverty per capita(less than $1 and $2 a day in income), severe malnourishment per capita, murder per capita, prostitution per capita, gutter cleaners per capita, homelessness per capita, tuberculosis per capita....its a much more poverty stricken place than pakistan is--and this is provable statistically.

*HIV infections per capita? Possibly...
*Abject poverty per capita(less than a $ or two) ? Debatable...
a large grey economy, unorganised labor market and lower PPP, Ration/PDS schemes etc. are all important factors which must be taken into account
*Severe Malnourtishment per capita? Its the first time I have heard this.. please provide some statistics... Calorie requirements vary and so do the BMR of different individuals..
*Murder per capita? Provide stats
*Prostitution per capita? Provide stats
*Guttercleaners per capita? Provide stats
*Homelessness per capita ? Provide stats.. (possible since a House in posh area in Delhi/Mumbai costs 25000$+ per sq yard yes 25000$)
*TB per capita? Some diseases are due to climatic and topographical features..

BTW most of the above factors are not taken into account while defining poverty...

PS: I will be the first to say that in your face poverty in India is generally more overt than Pakistan.. and India leads Pakistan in absolute numbers...

Also, according to the IMF,
the per capita of Pakistan is $909 while that of India is $965.

I differ.. India's gdp per capita is over 1000$.. and there GDP by PPP per capita is over 5000$ ...
Pakistan's GDP per capita even if over 1000$ would then be around 3600$ per capita by PPP

Everyone knows India has the world's most uneven and inequitable

that would be China..

society plagued by discrimination, the caste system etc so it is ridiculous to assume that the lower levels of society in India are better off than Pakistan--it's not possible to even concieve as such.

Caste system exists in all South Asian Nations... While in India it is against the law to discriminate on the basis of caste, religion... etc.

And a dollar in Pakistan can buy you more than a dollar in India can. Even the programmers in Pakistan work for less money than an equivalent Indian programmer does.

PPP factor of India is approx 5 and that of Pak is approx 3.6.. so No..
 
I never mentioned any statistics, when I refer to social stratification, discrimination, opression etc these are very hard to quantify.

Depends.... Some Chinese here believe that they are happier than Indians statistically...

I am merely reciting popular opinion--that the indian/hindu social structure is one of the most uneven in the world and has been for thousands of years.

Why is it uneven?

Caste system is prevalent all over South Asia.. Even in Pakistan you will never see a Rajput marrying a Chamar.

Though I cand debate all day for and against caste system.

This is a sociological characteristic for the most part, not an economic or statistical observation. Although I am sure I can back some or most of my assertions up, just not with neat and simple statistics.

You should ideally always provide references.
 
The only significance of rates in poverty reduction is if the rate of change keeps up the way it is until the static numbers change enough to the point where India's poverty is less than pakistan. Until that happens the rate of change merely plays with future probabilities of how things may be if everything keeps going the way it has suddenly started to go, trendwise.
The IMF is in fact drawing comparisions in the rates of poverty reduction of which India's is higher. It does not require India's comprehensive poverty to be lesser than Pakistan's for their current conclusion to be statistically significant. If and when India's poverty does go below that of Pakistan's the results and the conclusions will be different from what has been stated here.


maqsad said:
I never mentioned any statistics, when I refer to social stratification, discrimination, opression etc these are very hard to quantify. I am merely reciting popular opinion--that the indian/hindu social structure is one of the most uneven in the world and has been for thousands of years. This is a sociological characteristic for the most part, not an economic or statistical observation. Although I am sure I can back some or most of my assertions up, just not with neat and simple statistics.
As a person who has lived on over 3 continents in multiple developing and under developed nations and participated in medical missions in many more; I can say with a great degree of observational certainty that the social stratification, discrimination, oppression and inequality of the Indian society is not even remotely the greatest in the world. Nor does the lowest denominator of Indian society live in a lawless, unstable, violent upheaval and threadbare civil war conditions as they do in parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, parts of South America, DPRK and most of North and sub Saharan Africa.... so yes, quality of life wise (since you aren't taking the economic aspect into account here), they are in fact better off than the unfortunate people who live in the abovementioned areas.

The "popular opinion" you state is most likely one limited to this site. If you see the rest of the world, one of the stated and published "popular opinion" states that Pakistan is the most dangerous nation in the world; an assertion that is vehemently rejected by most people here. Point being that, unless you are in possession of multiple unbiased sources supporting your stance, I don't think it's of much value.
 
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