Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[araz]

Araz sb is a very senior person. May i suggest to please make your point without using words such as stupid. Thanks

Icey.
My friend thank you for your kind words but let him come and get as good as he gets.I can still fight my own battles.
Kind regards
Araz

 

[IceCold]

Icey.
My friend thank you for your kind words but let him come and get as good as he gets.I can still fight my own battles.
Kind regards
Araz

Yes sir of course you can, but some things you just find them plain wrong and can't stay quiet.

 

[araz]

Again, why will the US activate the kill switch when the aircraft is in the air?

Kill switches will prevent an aircraft from taking off. So why will it go down to a MKI or Rafale when it can't fly up to meet them in the first place?
Irrespective of where they are activated it will still damage their reputation irrevocably. Secondly I can counter argue that they dont love India enough to let their aviation image getting damaged. On the contrary a few MKIs and rafales going down will add to their kudoos


They will all buy the F-35 when it becomes available sometime next decade. At least Saudi, UAE, Qatar and Kuwait will buy American jets and will continue to do so for a long time. Saudi is America's satellite state. They have a mutual defence agreement. The other smaller monarchies will follow suit.
No evidence to prove that.Pure conjecture.Lets agree to disagree and wait


It's not competition. You compete only when you build something similar. Japan won't export and have already committed to the F-35. They will most likely triple their orders in time. And Korea is not building a 5th gen jet.

The induction of fifth generation aircrafts will come at the expense of? Export will be the nbext step. This is the nature of developemnts in any industry. Look at the Chinese SU J11 saga. Do you not think the Russians lost out?


The Turks are building a complementary jet. Turkey will be a major hub for the F-35 and they have already ordered 6. So they have become committed.

They have already reduced their requiremnet of F35 and once their own jets come on line see what happens to the F35. The subsequent orders will be massively reduced depending on Turkish Success with their nascent project.


There are no restrictions to US equipment. We can use it anywhere we want, wherever we want, however we want. I think what you are referring to is communication equipment that the US did not supply because we didn't sign the CISMOA. But that's irrelevant because we replaced them with our own equipment, which we intended to do in the first place, so no loss there.
Au Contrare mon ami!!! It is a huge restriction as there are multiple news item out about it. Your new system is not conforming and consequently you have severe restrictions in communications. This may be fine ( or so you might think) for noncombabtant platforms but the utility of P8 and Apaches will be severely hampered by itSo talk to some one who knows what they are talking about before you come back to me.

The only weapons system that has restrictions is the USS Trenton, but that's because it was originally a USN ship. The only major restriction we have is that we cannot use American weapons to drop nuclear weapons, but that's irrelevant to what we have purchased.



There are no restrictions to using French weapons either. We even use it for nuclear missions.
Did not say there were


Right click on "+Quote" and open in new tab. Then use [ quote ]part of my post[/ quote ] (remove spaces in brackets) and type what you want under it, then repeat with another part of my post. Simple. The multiquote thing is sh*t.

Too old and impatient to do so. Probably learn in the next few posts and then forget in a week. So do excuse this old man my friend and put up with my idiosyncracies

That is not a Russian problem, that's an Indian bureaucracy problem. The only valid point was the engine trouble, it would lose pressure quickly during some maneuvers, and they have fixed that problem.

So Malaysia and Indonesia are sufferring because of Indian beaurocracy? Come on!!! At least give me a better excuse. Is the fact that the Local contractor a restauranteer in Moscow also due to Indian beaurocracy? No my friend you r beaurocracy is to be blamed due to the delays in acquisitions but the Russains are royally incompetant and the world knows it whether you like it or not.
Regards
A

Then that leaves the expensive Typhoon as the only option.

Or the logical pathway of waiting for J31 to come on line. All of this is flatus pumped out by fan boys in any case!! PAF has not planned for any new acquisitions.
A

 

[The Eagle]

Then that leaves the expensive Typhoon as the only option.

A bit late to reply, however, there is no plan for new platform which is all clear by last interview of ACM, Most likely, as I stated in other post as well, that PAF will stick to F-16s, JFT (possibly block-III) and J-31 or something like that in the future as said PAF is working on NGF. The rest about SUs or EFTs are rumors without any support.

 

[randomradio]

Irrespective of where they are activated it will still damage their reputation irrevocably. Secondly I can counter argue that they dont love India enough to let their aviation image getting damaged. On the contrary a few MKIs and rafales going down will add to their kudoos

There will be zero damage to their reputation.

The induction of fifth generation aircrafts will come at the expense of? Export will be the nbext step. This is the nature of developemnts in any industry. Look at the Chinese SU J11 saga. Do you not think the Russians lost out?

It doesn't affect it as much as you believe. The Japanese are replacing their F-16s with F-35s. And F-15s with the new aircraft. US doesn't have any other aircraft for sale right now, so no threat to their market.

They have already reduced their requiremnet of F35 and once their own jets come on line see what happens to the F35. The subsequent orders will be massively reduced depending on Turkish Success with their nascent project.

TFX is being designed as a complement to the F-35. The Turks plan to order a lot more F-35s. I easily estimate about 300 F-35s for them.

This is the latest from Turkey.
http://aa.com.tr/en/americas/turkish-defense-official-f-35-program-back-on-track/579530

“The program is back on track,” he said.

Two aircraft will be delivered to Turkey in 2018, of a total order of 107, according to Demir.

This in particular is the most important.

“Turkey is selected as the first headquarter for maintenance, repair and assembly of the engine for F-35 outside of the U.S.,” Demir added.

I believe they will manufacture 100+ jets in Turkey, like they did with the F-16.

Au Contrare mon ami!!! It is a huge restriction as there are multiple news item out about it. Your new system is not conforming and consequently you have severe restrictions in communications. This may be fine ( or so you might think) for noncombabtant platforms but the utility of P8 and Apaches will be severely hampered by itSo talk to some one who knows what they are talking about before you come back to me.

I will repeat this again. There are zero restrictions in any aspect. We have replaced the datalinks, IFFs and radio systems with our own stuff. The US has no influence there. Apache, P-8 etc are not restricted.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/07/without-cismoa-indian-navy-works-p-8i.html

it was in a presentation that Boeing made today to a group of us visting journalists in Washington. It illustrates just how the Indian Navy has plugged the CISMOA-induced gaps on the American platform — notably, speech secrecy kit by India’s state-owned Electronics Corporation of India Ltd (ECIL), IFF interrogator and transponder by BEL and HAL respectively, mobile satellite system by Avantel and fingerprinting kit by BEL. All very interesting.

The gear on the P-8 platform that was held off as a result of the absence of a CISMOA, are understood to include a Raytheon IFF transponder (Mode IV Crypto), SINCGARS radio, TACTERM/ADVT secure voice (HF) terminals and Rockwell-Collins SATCOM transceivers.

All equipment that was part of CISMOA have been replaced with Indian equivalent systems. But that was always the plan.

http://articles.economictimes.india...n-navy-s-p-8i-space-and-security-data-link-ii

US defence major Boeing on Wednesday announced receiving in April the first Indian-made technology enabling exchange of tactical data and messages between aircraft, ships and shore-based assets for Indian Navy's P-8I surveillance aircraft from Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL).

So, nope, you are misinformed here. There are no restrictions on the aircraft.

So Malaysia and Indonesia are sufferring because of Indian beaurocracy? Come on!!! At least give me a better excuse. Is the fact that the Local contractor a restauranteer in Moscow also due to Indian beaurocracy? No my friend you r beaurocracy is to be blamed due to the delays in acquisitions but the Russains are royally incompetant and the world knows it whether you like it or not.

Regards
A

For Indonesia and Malaysia, funding is a major cause for concern.

And for India it has always been bureaucracy.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ty-could-go-up-to-75/articleshow/50075387.cms

While in the past, the bureaucratic processes led to a 12 month time period between the time a requirement was raised and the spare part would start to get manufactured, this time will now be cut to 30 days.

You can read the rest of the article.

As for Malaysia-
http://defense-studies.blogspot.in/2013/06/malaysia-invests-in-sukhoi-fighter.html

The increased spending is meant to boost combat readiness of the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) Su-30MKM fleet from the current level of 65 to 70 percent to 85 percent in the “near term” and eventually increase this to 100 percent.

They needed to boost their budget to get higher availability. Indonesia's and Malaysia's problem is financial, not Russia. India's problem is bureaucracy, not Russia. Russian jets require more maintenance, so most countries complain about that a lot. Otherwise if you pay for the spares, you get your spares.

 

[araz]

There will be zero damage to their reputation.



It doesn't affect it as much as you believe. The Japanese are replacing their F-16s with F-35s. And F-15s with the new aircraft. US doesn't have any other aircraft for sale right now, so no threat to their market.



TFX is being designed as a complement to the F-35. The Turks plan to order a lot more F-35s. I easily estimate about 300 F-35s for them.

This is the latest from Turkey.
http://aa.com.tr/en/americas/turkish-defense-official-f-35-program-back-on-track/579530


This in particular is the most important.


I believe they will manufacture 100+ jets in Turkey, like they did with the F-16.



I will repeat this again. There are zero restrictions in any aspect. We have replaced the datalinks, IFFs and radio systems with our own stuff. The US has no influence there. Apache, P-8 etc are not restricted.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/07/without-cismoa-indian-navy-works-p-8i.html


All equipment that was part of CISMOA have been replaced with Indian equivalent systems. But that was always the plan.

http://articles.economictimes.india...n-navy-s-p-8i-space-and-security-data-link-ii


So, nope, you are misinformed here. There are no restrictions on the aircraft.



For Indonesia and Malaysia, funding is a major cause for concern.

And for India it has always been bureaucracy.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ty-could-go-up-to-75/articleshow/50075387.cms


You can read the rest of the article.

As for Malaysia-
http://defense-studies.blogspot.in/2013/06/malaysia-invests-in-sukhoi-fighter.html


They needed to boost their budget to get higher availability. Indonesia's and Malaysia's problem is financial, not Russia. India's problem is bureaucracy, not Russia. Russian jets require more maintenance, so most countries complain about that a lot. Otherwise if you pay for the spares, you get your spares.

On the Turkey front, I believe that the space needs to be watched. With the Coup attempt there maybe ramifications which need observing. So lets wait on this one.
On the Indian front and their communications issues with disparity between the indian software and Western equipment we have heard from a senior and reliable Ex PAF poster@Bilal khan 777 and this "yes it is and no it is not" debate is not of any interest to me. Suffice it to say I would much rather believe him than you or the Indian times report which you have quoted. I would have dug his posts out but cant find any time from work so let us agree to disagree. The Indian problems also pertained to the problems with the MKI Turbine blades which aI am sure had nothing to do with your beaurocracy
Again Malaysia and Indonesia have clearly cited problems with Mig 29 engines .Your contention of financial problems is rather flacid. In fact their is an article in flight global in june 2009 on the subject if you want a reference. Plus if on the one hand you reckon that their economies are better than India's and then quote financial restraints as a reason for their problems you are either wrong on one or the other statement?
A

 

[randomradio]

On the Turkey front, I believe that the space needs to be watched. With the Coup attempt there maybe ramifications which need observing. So lets wait on this one.

Personally, I don't think anything will happen. Things will go on as is. Turkey is still part of NATO and as long as Russia is being difficult, the Turks won't lose their importance.

On the Indian front and their communications issues with disparity between the indian software and Western equipment we have heard from a senior and reliable Ex PAF poster@Bilal khan 777 and this "yes it is and no it is not" debate is not of any interest to me. Suffice it to say I would much rather believe him than you or the Indian times report which you have quoted. I would have dug his posts out but cant find any time from work so let us agree to disagree.

I'm afraid I do not believe him. It is impossible for restrictions to be placed if equipment is replaced. Boeing is a more reliable source than third party singular sources.

The Indian problems also pertained to the problems with the MKI Turbine blades which aI am sure had nothing to do with your beaurocracy

MKI has technical issues and spares issues. The technical issues did not affect availability, the spares issue did.

Again Malaysia and Indonesia have clearly cited problems with Mig 29 engines .Your contention of financial problems is rather flacid.

Mig-29 has always had problems everywhere, even in India, but Mig-29 troubles shouldn't affect Sukhoi. You were talking about Su-35 for the PAF right? Mig is irrelevant here.

The Malaysian Sukhois are doing pretty well. That's also the reason why Indonesia has decided to purchase the Su-35. If they had problems with their older fleet of Su-27s and Su-30s, they wouldn't have gone for the Su-35s, especially when they can buy American.

 

[araz]

Personally, I don't think anything will happen. Things will go on as is. Turkey is still part of NATO and as long as Russia is being difficult, the Turks won't lose their importance.



I'm afraid I do not believe him. It is impossible for restrictions to be placed if equipment is replaced. Boeing is a more reliable source than third party singular sources.



MKI has technical issues and spares issues. The technical issues did not affect availability, the spares issue did.



Mig-29 has always had problems everywhere, even in India, but Mig-29 troubles shouldn't affect Sukhoi. You were talking about Su-35 for the PAF right? Mig is irrelevant here.

The Malaysian Sukhois are doing pretty well. That's also the reason why Indonesia has decided to purchase the Su-35. If they had problems with their older fleet of Su-27s and Su-30s, they wouldn't have gone for the Su-35s, especially when they can buy American.

On the Turkey front lets wait and see. This is just your opinion v/s mine and a shot in the future therefore unknown to both of us.
On the issue of comms equipment for IAF it is common knowledge that when you write software for and integrate hardware into a platform from different sources without knowing the source codes which the US never or almost never ( exception Turkey for F16) releases you will have problems. The IAF will never highlight it and you are welcome to wallow in your bubble of security. I will believe the person who I know to be technically more than qualified to make that judgement rather than you whose credentials are unknown.
On the MKI front you now accept that there are spares issues so why argue. By the way your fleet was grounded for well over 18 months by the admissions of Indian press. So as I said the MKI and aso the AL31 FN in China as well have had major problems. So again I dont know why you are arguing the subject.
On the Malaysian Mig 29s I am glad you have seen the light of the day. So now you also admit Mig 29s have had problems with IAF as well.
Personally I love the SU35.However it is a new plane with contracts only and no one has yet to be supplied with it. So just wait and see before pronouncing judgement. As to why Indonesia has bought t it has to do with the commonality of equipment and economy thereof. I have already elaborated problems with MKI in IAF and PLAAF so the point is proven and accepted.
A

 

[randomradio]

On the MKI front you now accept that there are spares issues so why argue.

I told you. It was because of the Indian bureaucracy. Not because of the Russians. If India doesn't place orders, then how will Russia supply spares?

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ge-2000-upgrade-progresses-despite-groundings

Although a $2.2 billion upgrade of India’s Dassault Mirage 2000 fighters is progressing, around a quarter of the fleet of 49 is grounded because a contract for spares has remained unsigned for years, AIN has learned from sources involved in the program.

“Bureaucratic holdups have caused delays. As a result, parts are being cannibalized and there are some aircraft [inactive] since 2010.

You do realize if you don't order spares you don't get spares right?

By the way your fleet was grounded for well over 18 months by the admissions of Indian press.

Please provide proof. No such thing has happened. The highest the MKI was grounded for was 1 month, after the successive crashes, which is routine. The MKI has never been grounded for spares issues. Even the F-22 has been repeatedly grounded more times than the MKI.

On the Malaysian Mig 29s I am glad you have seen the light of the day. So now you also admit Mig 29s have had problems with IAF as well.

What is the point of seeing the light of day on irrelevant issues?

I have already elaborated problems with MKI in IAF and PLAAF so the point is proven and accepted.
A

All you have done is made baseless claims and then come to irrelevant conclusions. Including the restrictions on American systems, completely baseless based on hearsay.

 

[Zain Malik]

A bit late to reply, however, there is no plan for new platform which is all clear by last interview of ACM, Most likely, as I stated in other post as well, that PAF will stick to F-16s, JFT (possibly block-III) and J-31 or something like that in the future as said PAF is working on NGF. The rest about SUs or EFTs are rumors without any support.

Then why he always say "exploring more option"...???

 

[ZedZeeshan]

Then why he always say "exploring more option"...???

There is indeed a need for new platform which fills gap between 4th Generation fighter plane and 5th Generation fighter plane. We must understand that 5th generation will not come atleast before 2025 and this is where induction will start and God knows with how many planes we start with. It can be 36 or even just 1 squadron. If we see current situation we find that more then 100 f7p and mirages are need to be replaced in addition to that F16 which we bought in 80 will also be going to retire although it will be by 2030. JF17 thunder production is not that fast to replace all these planes and a professional airforce like Pakistan will not be betting entire fleet on just 1 platform.
If we see on the other side of the border its clear their plans of induction for existing and coming decayed. Although it gets delayed because of their bureaucratic bottle necks but that does not mean they are not serious in inducting new platform for 4.5 Generation and 5th Generation. sooner or later they will finalize all the deals.
I personally think that the only platform which can give tough time to Raffale is Euro Fighter but inducting 36 will not be less then 10$ billion.

 

[mingle]

There is indeed a need for new platform which fills gap between 4th Generation fighter plane and 5th Generation fighter plane. We must understand that 5th generation will not come atleast before 2025 and this is where induction will start and God knows with how many planes we start with. It can be 36 or even just 1 squadron. If we see current situation we find that more then 100 f7p and mirages are need to be replaced in addition to that F16 which we bought in 80 will also be going to retire although it will be by 2030. JF17 thunder production is not that fast to replace all these planes and a professional airforce like Pakistan will not be betting entire fleet on just 1 platform.
If we see on the other side of the border its clear their plans of induction for existing and coming decayed. Although it gets delayed because of their bureaucratic bottle necks but that does not mean they are not serious in inducting new platform for 4.5 Generation and 5th Generation. sooner or later they will finalize all the deals.
I personally think that the only platform which can give tough time to Raffale is Euro Fighter but inducting 36 will not be less then 10$ billion.

Haris said PAF looking 40 new jets other than F16s and JF17 its not J 20 or J 31 lets the finger crossed we will hear some news soon but tech details takes time could be Flanker from Russia .

 

[WOW_FACTOR]

Haris said PAF looking 40 new jets other than F16s and JF17 its not J 20 or J 31 lets the finger crossed we will hear some news soon but tech details takes time could be Flanker from Russia .

NO flanker for sure. May be J-11 ?

 

[SBD-3]

No we only show New weapons on a trailer

After a few years we will put Rafales on a trailer

@Windjammer

Are you sure that if this deal goes through ; French will support it in the form of spares
and Weapons

Because they are too deeply involved with India now

If Mirage was truly a multi-role then IAF wouldn't have been using it exclusively for ground support. AD/Interception have been carried out predominantly by Migs. Mirages gave IAF an excellent and stable ground support platform where Migs failed to bring anything significant to the table. So you see Mirages staying put and being upgraded.

NO flanker for sure. May be J-11 ?

At most, J-10. J-11 doesn't bring anything significant over J-10 in capabilities and given PAF's condensed strategic objectives. J-11 entails more costs than benefits,

 

[randomradio]

If Mirage was truly a multi-role then IAF wouldn't have been using it exclusively for ground support. AD/Interception have been carried out predominantly by Migs. Mirages gave IAF an excellent and stable ground support platform where Migs failed to bring anything significant to the table. So you see Mirages staying put and being upgraded.

The Mirages that the IAF has are currently the old ones that fire the Super 530D. They will be used for air superiority missions once the aircraft are upgraded and MICA is integrated. They were used for strike because they had really good EW.

The Mig-29 was capable of firing the R-27 and R-77, both are more advanced and have better performance compared to the 530D.