Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[CriticalThought]

The issue with AvRID/PAC -- and Pakistani R&D in general -- isn't technical or administrative, but policy. Yes, there are layers of issues in terms of talent, ability, organization, etc, but they all stem from bad top-policy level decisions that result in silo's, lack of horizontal collaboration, lack of sustained R&D investment, and a spate of redundant imports. We know that individual Pakistanis can do a lot, but the organizational structure at the top is holding us back from working to our actual potential. Unfortunately, those countries that do have their homes in order are inviting our people in to help them whereas our R&D homes are uninviting and/or uninspiring.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) I moved your post here. My post you quoted was also moved here by @JamD

 

[S A L M A N.]

Apologies for the thread jump, I did not want to discuss Azm on the JF17 blk3 thread.

To your comment:
Create small, enabled teams of capable engineers to work on various aspects - totally agreed, that this should be done.

What is then the stumbling block? HR, infrastructure, and redtape.
1. HR
Fact: AvRID hires people on one-year renewable contracts.
What AvRID engineers have told me: People join AvRID is a temporary place to work at while they get more secure jobs at AWC etc. As a result there are people constantly coming in and going out.
Majority of the people that AvRID has been able to hire are fresh undergrads with little to no experience. The number of people with Master's degrees is small, and PhDs are a handful. I am not claiming degrees are everything, but I am claiming that 5 PhDs leading a team of 80 undergrads will not get you Azm. Undergrads can do great work, don't get me wrong. But they need direction. What people at AvRID say is the opposite of that. I am not sure what the impediment to hiring more qualified people is. Maybe they can't afford to or don't want to pay enough, or they don't want people that will question PAF babas too much - I don't know, might be a combination of both. There are certainly many Pakistani PhDs that are very capable and willing. Here's a recent ad for hiring at AvRID (not even looking for PhD's, why?):
View attachment 773542
I know how few PhDs are currently at AvRID. In this day and age, you need many many PhDs because there's research and work experience that you simply will not get with an army of undergrads that keep coming in and leaving.

The probability of finding Pakistan-based PhDs who are upto the task is very low. If the PAF chooses to look for Pakistani PhDs and researchers abroad, they will not be able to provide them the operation/decision-making autonomy, job security, monetary benefits, etc to incentivize them to come back. Besides, no Pakistani expert who has spent his blood and sweat while competing with the best in the world will want to come back here and work under mediocre officers who will obviously be assigned as his bosses.

2. Infrastructure
Lockmart is one of the biggest aerospace companies in the world and has access to an amazing variety of engineering infrastructure. AvRID does not. The poor guys at AvRID haven't even done a single wind tunnel test till today because they don't have access to it - everything is compartmentalized in Pakistan, you know this. Only now are they preparing for their first wind tunnel tests.

This is just plain pathetic. And incredibly sad and unfortunate. The manner in which we squander resources, talent and opportunities is absolutely criminal and nearly constitutes treason to the nation.

So yes, Kelly Johnsons points are well taken in some regards. But Kelly Johnson didn't have deal with a workforce made of inexperienced undergrads that keep coming and going. Kelly Johnson had a lot of engineering infrastructure at his disposal that AvRID does not. Kelly Johnson was the boss of his own department and wasn't cut down to size or fired because he was threatening the supremacy of PAF babas.

Kelly Johnson had a pick of the crop of the best engineers then working at Lockheed (which even in the 40s and 50s was a huge and experienced company). In addition to being chief of Skunk Works, he was also VP of Lockheed - thus having access to the entire wherewithal required for delivering top tier technology on time and within budget. Also, the engineers at Lockheed were those that had gone through som eof the world's best universities, mentored by the finest minds and worked in an environment where merit and open minds were the order of the day.
Besides, we must also remember that any interference by the customer (i.e. the military) was an absolute no-no for Kelly. He figured out long ago what we still can't seem to get into our heads - IT IS NOT THE MILITARY'S JOB TO VENTURE INTO R&D/TECHNOLOGY MANUFACTURING. PERIOD.
There is a reason why the 'PAF is the only air force in the world which manufactures its own aircraft'.

Funny you should say that. When Azm started, this is exactly what I was afraid of. I actually know the entire story of Azm now, and unfortunately, it is as you fear. A story of personalities with little to no institutional buy-in. This is probably the reason AvRID is hiring people on annual contracts because they are not even sure of their own existence in the long term.

We're stuck in this perpetual cycle and its really predictable now.
For all we know, the PAF MAY 'surprise us', although I believe that such surprises are reserved for warfare-related matters and not for something which really isn't the mandate of the PAF to begin with - R&D in a domain which is currently the frontline of modern engineering.

I was actually quite pleased with their MALE. But that's probably because my expectations were realistic lol.

I was pleasantly surprised too. I totally expected another Chinese knockoff like the Burraq.
However, I will not allow myself to be happy unless I know that the Azm MALE has been inducted and is flying operational missions. I still expect some Wing Loongs or CH-4s to be revealed any day.

I don't want to come off as shokha but some of the worst engineers I knew are now at AvRID. On the other hand I do know 2 or 3 geniunely talented people at AvRID too.

Same here. Infact, I know of similar people at NRDI and NESCOM, etc too. There's pretty much enough to go around.
Talent acquisition must be an exhausting and challenging process to weed out the opportunists from the real passionate and talented individuals. The current process is similar to that for any sarkari naukri.

The issue with AvRID/PAC -- and Pakistani R&D in general -- isn't technical or administrative, but policy. Yes, there are layers of issues in terms of talent, ability, organization, etc, but they all stem from bad top-policy level decisions that result in silo's, lack of horizontal collaboration, lack of sustained R&D investment, and a spate of redundant imports. We know that individual Pakistanis can do a lot, but the organizational structure at the top is holding us back from working to our actual potential. Unfortunately, those countries that do have their homes in order are inviting our people in to help them whereas our R&D homes are uninviting and/or uninspiring.

And unless there is a major shakeup which radically alters (read: demolishes) the current status quo, there can be absolutely no change. You build a thousand Aviation Cities, AvDIs, NRDIs, CENTAICs, AvRIDs, etc - the result will be the same: very near to null, if not entirely null.

 

[JamD]

The probability of finding Pakistan-based PhDs who are upto the task is very low. If the PAF chooses to look for Pakistani PhDs and researchers abroad, they will not be able to provide them the operation/decision-making autonomy, job security, monetary benefits, etc to incentivize them to come back. Besides, no Pakistani expert who has spent his blood and sweat while competing with the best in the world will want to come back here and work under mediocre officers who will obviously be assigned as his bosses.

Right, they would need to do all of that to attract Pakistani foreign educated PhDs. No chance otherwise. I don't want to go to Pakistan to waste my self.

 

[Goenitz]

again posting

Key take away:
A small change at top level causes huge impact at ground level
Normally retired bureaucrat and military professional were used to be hired (08:04)
If you want to change an industry, change its HR department (08:20)
Though under government but it is very independent.

See an educated lot like Moeed Yusuf and him changed a lot @sal29 . Within 6 months IPRI ranked improved many folds.
Entire talk is worthy @S A L M A N. @JamD You might hv heard that talk.

 

[PakFactor]

Right, they would need to do all of that to attract Pakistani foreign educated PhDs. No chance otherwise. I don't want to go to Pakistan to waste my self.

I, at one point thought about being a lecturer in organization management and operations which is my BA and MBA and job background, the shafarash culture turned me of, my goal was to spend time between US and Pakistan. The pay scale and moving up the ladder didn't make much sense either so opted to stay in the US and taught in few colleges over the last 5-6 years while managing the business.

I have relatives and family friends with PhDs as I explained in another threat few weeks back they were sent overseas by HEC under the 10,000 scholar program, 90% that came back aren't getting jobs and wasting away at home or helping the father in the restaurant business or something.

 

[Goenitz]

I have relatives and family friends with PhDs as I explained in another threat few weeks back they were sent overseas by HEC under the 10,000 scholar program, 90% that came back aren't getting jobs and wasting away at home or helping the father in the restaurant business or something.

Getting job requires patience, work and time. PhD running business is also healthy. If those scholars are not bounded by bonds, then they can apply for post-doc. Else, do M-Ed or some education certificate (PgCHPE Post-doc certificate in higher and professional education) and go gulf.

PhD is not a magical thing. It increases the job probability but getting hired is also luck. Even in UK, there is job scarcity.

see dying US tenureship

 

[PakFactor]

Getting job requires patience, work and time. PhD running business is also healthy. If those scholars are not bounded by bonds, then they can apply for post-doc. Else, do M-Ed or some education certificate (PgCHPE Post-doc certificate in higher and professional education) and go gulf.

PhD is not a magical thing. It increases the job probability but getting hired is also luck. Even in UK, there is job scarcity.
View attachment 773816

Comparing the West like UK is different than Pakistan.
Running a restaurant with a PhD in Business is no big loss to the nation.
But running a restaurant with a PhD in Engineering, Chemistry, Biology, Physics, etc., is a huge loss.

Pakistan is in a phase it can absorb all this and get those individuals' jobs and grow an intellectual base among the population. PhD's are the bread and butter of the University and R&D field as they bring in the funds and lead researcher and groom BA and MAs.

 

[Goenitz]

But running a restaurant with a PhD in Engineering, Chemistry, Biology, Physics, etc., is a huge loss.

Nope.. just a temporary loss. Plus it can be skill learning if those PhDs can learn customer services, procurement, supply chain management, during business. They can learn other skills online like programming. Keep applying and they will get some job.

PhD's are the bread and butter of the University and R&D field as they bring in the funds and lead researcher and groom BA and MAs.

Not just R&D. But they can better train, devise curriculum/training and hire better workforce. That was the point of sharing that IPRI talk.
@sal29 Just highlighting todays industry specification. The tourism industry is so advanced and precise (hotel management, travel plan, facilities, etc etc) that Bali alone attract 6.9 million foreign tourists whereas the entire India attracts 10.93 million international tourists.

So you need a specialist for making state of the art parts of car/aircraft. However, 100% indigenous is a myth in this era. tagged you too much

 

[sal29]

Nope.. just a temporary loss. Plus it can be skill learning if those PhDs can learn customer services, procurement, supply chain management, during business. They can learn other skills online like programming. Keep applying and they will get some job.

Not just R&D. But they can better train, devise curriculum/training and hire better workforce. That was the point of sharing that IPRI talk.
@sal29 Just highlighting todays industry specification. The tourism industry is so advanced and precise (hotel management, travel plan, facilities, etc etc) that Bali alone attract 6.9 million foreign tourists whereas the entire India attracts 10.93 million international tourists.

So you need a specialist for making state of the art parts of car/aircraft. However, 100% indigenous is a myth in this era. tagged you too much

You need competency, experience and the will a lot more than a degree. Of course you need domain specific knowledge. For me I don't care if it comes from a degree or coursera. Take for example ASML .. it is one the most (underrated though) high tech company which makes a physical product. They hire tones of PhDs for domain specific research. The also hire tones of engineers so the theory/solutions that those physicist and mathematicians came up with could be implemented as there is a lot of difference between coming up with a solution and actually implementing it. So you need balance of both for a project. Just hiring PhDs and throwing them in a project helps with nothing. You need to build up a team taking into account all aspects. It does take time it can not be done overnight.

 

[messiach]

Rubbish. @S A L M A N.
We dont need foreign educated PhDs any more, keep your skills to yourself. Best wishes.

Right, they would need to do all of that to attract Pakistani foreign educated PhDs. No chance otherwise. I don't want to go to Pakistan to waste my self.

 

[Goenitz]

You need competency, experience and the will a lot more than a degree. Of course you need domain specific knowledge. For me I don't care if it comes from a degree or coursera. Take for example ASML .. it is one the most (underrated though) high tech company which makes a physical product. They hire tones of PhDs for domain specific research. The also hire tones of engineers so the theory/solutions that those physicist and mathematicians came up with could be implemented as there is a lot of difference between coming up with a solution and actually implementing it. So you need balance of both for a project. Just hiring PhDs and throwing them in a project helps with nothing. You need to build up a team taking into account all aspects. It does take time it can not be done overnight.

Sure we need a skilled workers as I highlighted before that Apollo computer was made by women as they were good at knitting.
Yes, we need a team and a healthy balance (dependent on the department) between researchers, engineers and skill workers.
My whole argument was that PhD or research broadens your horizon. I don't think just through experience you can learn that. Look at this famous stages of learning.
Synthesis and evaluation are core competency of the researcher. MS and BS students are good at analysis whereas skilled workers are good at application. It is just an opinion.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

Rubbish. @S A L M A N.
We dont need foreign educated PhDs any more, keep your skills to yourself. Best wishes.

What do you mean?

 

[Goenitz]

We dont need foreign educated PhDs any more, keep your skills to yourself. Best wishes.

What about foreign weapons? or medicine? or TVs or Cell Phones? Cars? Generators for electricity.

 

[Trango Towers]

Rubbish. @S A L M A N.
We dont need foreign educated PhDs any more, keep your skills to yourself. Best wishes.

Well said

Right, they would need to do all of that to attract Pakistani foreign educated PhDs. No chance otherwise. I don't want to go to Pakistan to waste my self.

Yiu have a very high opinion of yourself. Do u know how many capable young me and women there are in Pakistan. Get off your Shetland pony and smell the coffee. Pakistan doesn't need you. Stay away

 

[messiach]

Situation in civil sector will better in time.

What about foreign weapons? or medicine? or TVs or Cell Phones? Cars? Generators for electricity.