Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Trango Towers]

One route is the extra long one... We recruit Ukrainian experts to visit/live in Pakistan to teach our people and take the lead on research on gas turbines and other engine inputs. It would take a long time for something to materialize -- but better later on than never.

Between the time you start this project and get a serviceable fighter engine, you could develop a long list of things: miniature turbojets and turbofans for cruise missiles and drones; turboprop engines for trainers; turboshaft engines for helicopters; smaller jet engines for trainers and business jets; turbines for ships; energy applications, etc.

Actually we have materials experts already in Pakistan. What we lack is blade design technology and materials to make the blades. Combustion design is also quite complex.

 

[Kharral]

One route is the extra long one... We recruit Ukrainian experts to visit/live in Pakistan to teach our people and take the lead on research on gas turbines and other engine inputs. It would take a long time for something to materialize -- but better later on than never.

Between the time you start this project and get a serviceable fighter engine, you could develop a long list of things: miniature turbojets and turbofans for cruise missiles and drones; turboprop engines for trainers; turboshaft engines for helicopters; smaller jet engines for trainers and business jets; turbines for ships; energy applications, etc.

But do we have the required metallurgy base in place to commence any serious engine related research & manufacturing effort ?

 

[Safriz]

About Metallurgical experts, my aunt did PHD metallurgy back in the 80s from USA ,and spent the rest of her working life teaching at Karachi university. At the time she was the only female Doctor in metallurgy and one of the few in Pakistan . Her PHD was funded by government of Pakistan .
She and many others like her on who's doctorate GOP actually invested, could have been made more useful by actually giving them research project. But no they were left to teach undergraduate students.
Likewise my cousin did PHD in nuclear physics, again a female and all expenses paid by GOP. Came back to Pakistan, all pumped up for doing wonders for the country, and was deputed to some very low level administration work at Pakistan atomic energy commission.
Resigned within an year, paid the government of Pakistan her PhD scholarship expenses and immigrated to USA.
Today holds multiple patents and lives off licence fees on her patents and is a millionaire.
Another example I remember was my physics teacher in F.Sc . GOP sent him abroad for PHD in radiation physics . He completed the doctorate and came back as the first doctorate holder in Pakistan in that field.....and couldn't find any job. The only job he could find was teaching jobs and ended up in our college . He was a rubbish teacher.

Problem is not the available expertise but lack of use , or bad governance as Ex General Raheel Sharif pointed out as the biggest problem of the country.
Despite spending public money on sending doctorate students abroad for studies, when they come back, they are put to no use at all.
Waste of national money and waste of talent.

 

[The Raven]

I think the above posts have highlighted the issue. It's not gaining ToT for engine assembly, but investing in the required industrial, R&D, and manufacturing base. Very few countries have mastered single crystal blade technology, and those that have aren't going to give it away that easily. It has taken the Chinese decades to reach where they are now in terms of engine tech, but they still lag in some critical elements. In addition, experience and a demonstrable history of developing and producing reliable, efficient engines is an asset in itself - would you be willing to fly in airliner which is powered by a Chinese engine?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think the above posts have highlighted the issue. It's not gaining ToT for engine assembly, but investing in the required industrial, R&D, and manufacturing base. Very few countries have mastered single crystal blade technology, and those that have aren't going to give it away that easily. It has taken the Chinese decades to reach where they are now in terms of engine tech, but they still lag in some critical elements. In addition, experience and a demonstrable history of developing and producing reliable, efficient engines is an asset in itself - would you be willing to fly in airliner which is powered by a Chinese engine?

You're right. That said, of the countries that could, hypothetically, reverse engineer the RD-93, it should be Ukraine. Not only do they have the industrial base for engines and experience (enough that even China tried buying into it), but they've operated Klimov engines longer than anyone aside from Russia itself.

We're not even on the trajectory to master crystal blade technology, but I'd rather we at least get to the 80-90% of in-house engine manufacturing, even if we must rely on Ukraine, China or even Europe for the most sensitive tech.

It isn't ideal from a political standpoint (as we'll rely on outsiders), but economically, we could save a lot of money, and potentially make some money exporting the engines. Yes, the outside partner will get a cut because they are supplying the crystal blade tech, but not all hope is lost. Ukraine is economically tenuous, it can't bankroll new R&D projects frequently enough, but we can help with funding and long-term scale. So, we'd need to rely on them, but in truth, they would need to rely on us as well, it's a workable relationship.

Anyways, if Russia won't/can't play ball, then getting a turn-key manufacturing line for an improved RD-93 (via the Ukrainians) or WS-19 should be the next goal. Obviously, we'd still need to import sensitive tech from the Chinese or Ukrainians, but I would rather we cover the accessible 80% than 0%.

The folks who come out of the manufacturing program can later go to crystal blade R&D, which may (or may not) pay off in the next 30-50 years. It sounds abstract and doesn't apply to us today, but our future generations don't need to struggle in a lurch like us today.

 

[MastanKhan]

But do we have the required metallurgy base in place to commence any serious engine related research & manufacturing effort ?

Hi,

What kind of engine---?

 

[Kharral]

Hi,

What kind of engine---?

I am asking the same question. Because as far as I know we are not even making a Motorcycle engine at present.

Ideally though I’d like us to be producing all sorts of Engines/Power Plants, ranging from Motorcycles to cars to Tanks & AeroPlanes.
But that’s a case of ‘if wishes were horses’.

 

[MastanKhan]

I am asking the same question. Because as far as I know we are not even making a Motorcycle engine at present.

Ideally though I’d like us to be producing all sorts of Engines/Power Plants, ranging from Motorcycles to cars to Tanks & AeroPlanes.
But that’s a case of ‘if wishes were hosers’.

Hi,

The best bet is to have JV's when it comes to engines---.

 

[Indos]

About Metallurgical experts, my aunt did PHD metallurgy back in the 80s from USA ,and spent the rest of her working life teaching at Karachi university. At the time she was the only female Doctor in metallurgy and one of the few in Pakistan . Her PHD was funded by government of Pakistan .
She and many others like her on who's doctorate GOP actually invested, could have been made more useful by actually giving them research project. But no they were left to teach undergraduate students.
Likewise my cousin did PHD in nuclear physics, again a female and all expenses paid by GOP. Came back to Pakistan, all pumped up for doing wonders for the country, and was deputed to some very low level administration work at Pakistan atomic energy commission.
Resigned within an year, paid the government of Pakistan her PhD scholarship expenses and immigrated to USA.
Today holds multiple patents and lives off licence fees on her patents and is a millionaire.
Another example I remember was my physics teacher in F.Sc . GOP sent him abroad for PHD in radiation physics . He completed the doctorate and came back as the first doctorate holder in Pakistan in that field.....and couldn't find any job. The only job he could find was teaching jobs and ended up in our college . He was a rubbish teacher.

Problem is not the available expertise but lack of use , or bad governance as Ex General Raheel Sharif pointed out as the biggest problem of the country.
Despite spending public money on sending doctorate students abroad for studies, when they come back, they are put to no use at all.
Waste of national money and waste of talent.

Very sad to hear that, and I also urge Pakistani expat who has Phd degree and experience in Western countries to dedicate their knowledge for Pakistan own project some day in their life. Indonesia has Habibie who actually finance his education in German from his family pocket then later make some patent on aerospace engineering, but later he comes back to Indonesia when our previous President, Soeharto, called him to develop our aerospace industry (and later also become head of all of our state owned strategic industries for many years).

Developing countries like Pakistan and Indonesia still lack research fund from government and the salary of researcher is also not as high as working in multinational companies or big and respected private local companies. It is why many brightest mind of Indonesian university graduates mostly work for private companies instead of working as researcher in government research body.

Take example of my brother who has IQ of 145 and become MENSA member and graduate from best university in Indonesia is working for many multinational companies in Indonesia as electronic engineers. My cousin who is the best graduate for engineering faculty in the best university in Indonesia work for Toyota Indonesia Manufacturing. While our research rely on second grade university graduate like my other cousin who graduates from third tier state university (our best universities are all state owned) now work for one of government research agencies (maybe due to his inability to work in big private company in telecommunication and electronic industries) and despite so, he has contributed in our Artificial Intelligent research and now is researching in quantum optoelectronic. His first degree in electronics.

The reason of why Muslim nations are left behind compared to Western Nation and East Asian nation in term of technology achievement is not due to our brain problem, but rather lack of research fund and lack of salary for researcher that make the best brain usually flooding to work in multinational and big local private companies who provide good salary.

 

[Kharral]

Hi,

The best bet is to have JV's when it comes to engines---.

The only way I can think of a JV coming to fruition is if we already have a significant capability in house. Something solid to offer in a partnership.
Now do we have that ?
Hence I asked the question about Metallurgy base.

 

[MastanKhan]

The only way I can think of a JV coming to fruition is if we already have a significant capability in house. Something solid to offer in a partnership.
Now do we have that ?
Hence I asked the question about Metallurgy base.

Hi,

Enjoy this latest video---.

And about giving something solid in a partnership is our geography and commitment to china---.

The chinese version of the Rd93 is ready---. We need an industrial base established in Gwadar or elsewhere in the region to ship equipment to africa. This industrial base would be coming about with another JV with china---.

We will get industry---we will get jobs---we will have machines---the system is being setup to get going.

Hi,

See---our industrial base was sabotaged by our politicians totally totally destroyed---. We just simply cannot go in and build it just like that---.

For that we have to become a Leach---latch onto a warm body and make progress from there---. We have to do things in reverse---. Once china sets up JV industrial base in our region---then we can have upcoming engineers in the fields that you are mentioning---because if we don't have jobs to consume these engineers locally---same issues of the old will occur---.

I will give you the example of the JF17's---we had no clue how to build a fighter aircraft---our only experience was a depot level servicing---but we excelled in knowing about the shape ergonomics the utility and function of a very modern aircraft---which---incidently our host did not excel in---. We also had a commitment that there would be no compromises made in the design function and utility of our aircraft---simple fact was what we wanted was what we would get from the chinese---.

That did a lot of good to both the sides---. The chinese had to up their game---and the Paf sent engineers to the chinese university to learn about aircraft design and manufacture part---. Our input resulted in far reaching critical changes that the chinese were building for their own consumption in the last decade.

Just to go back a few years---the chinese had sent engineers to pakistan in the late 1960's to see the begining of the setup of our engineering industrial base at that time---because we were an upcoming industrial nation---.

So---at this stage---we cannot go back in time but find and ride to success---.

 

[Kharral]

Hi,

Enjoy this latest video---.

And about giving something solid in a partnership is our geography and commitment to china---.

The chinese version of the Rd93 is ready---. We need an industrial base established in Gwadar or elsewhere in the region to ship equipment to africa. This industrial base would be coming about with another JV with china---.

We will get industry---we will get jobs---we will have machines---the system is being setup to get going.

Hi,

See---our industrial base was sabotaged by our politicians totally totally destroyed---. We just simply cannot go in and build it just like that---.

For that we have to become a Leach---latch onto a warm body and make progress from there---. We have to do things in reverse---. Once china sets up JV industrial base in our region---then we can have upcoming engineers in the fields that you are mentioning---because if we don't have jobs to consume these engineers locally---same issues of the old will occur---.

I will give you the example of the JF17's---we had no clue how to build a fighter aircraft---our only experience was a depot level servicing---but we excelled in knowing about the shape ergonomics the utility and function of a very modern aircraft---which---incidently our host did not excel in---. We also had a commitment that there would be no compromises made in the design function and utility of our aircraft---simple fact was what we wanted was what we would get from the chinese---.

That did a lot of good to both the sides---. The chinese had to up their game---and the Paf sent engineers to the chinese university to learn about aircraft design and manufacture part---. Our input resulted in far reaching critical changes that the chinese were building for their own consumption in the last decade.

Just to go back a few years---the chinese had sent engineers to pakistan in the late 1960's to see the begining of the setup of our engineering industrial base at that time---because we were an upcoming industrial nation---.

So---at this stage---we cannot go back in time but find and ride to success---.

Exactly, our rapidly growing population is our greatest asset & our worst liability, if we fail to consume it with work. We have no option but to industrialise.

& I hope it is the case as you have stated in your post.

 

[MastanKhan]

Exactly, our rapidly growing population is our greatest asset & our worst liability, if we fail to consume it with work. We have no option but to industrialise.

& I hope it is the case as you have stated in your post.

Hi,

Corona is a wrath of Allah and maybe a blessings in disguise for pakistan---. China may lose a few china based businesses and pakistan will gain quite a few of them---.

Just keep an eye on chinese industrial investments coming into pakistan after the Corona threat is over---.

 

[Safriz]

Very sad to hear that, and I also urge Pakistani expat who has Phd degree and experience in Western countries to dedicate their knowledge for Pakistan own project some day in their life. Indonesia has Habibie who actually finance his education in German from his family pocket then later make some patent on aerospace engineering, but later he comes back to Indonesia when our previous President, Soeharto, called him to develop our aerospace industry (and later also become head of all of our state owned strategic industries for many years).

Developing countries like Pakistan and Indonesia still lack research fund from government and the salary of researcher is also not as high as working in multinational companies or big and respected private local companies. It is why many brightest mind of Indonesian university graduates mostly work for private companies instead of working as researcher in government research body.

Take example of my brother who has IQ of 145 and become MENSA member and graduate from best university in Indonesia is working for many multinational companies in Indonesia as electronic engineers. My cousin who is the best graduate for engineering faculty in the best university in Indonesia work for Toyota Indonesia Manufacturing. While our research rely on second grade university graduate like my other cousin who graduates from third tier state university (our best universities are all state owned) now work for one of government research agencies (maybe due to his inability to work in big private company in telecommunication and electronic industries) and despite so, he has contributed in our Artificial Intelligent research and now is researching in quantum optoelectronic. His first degree in electronics.

The reason of why Muslim nations are left behind compared to Western Nation and East Asian nation in term of technology achievement is not due to our brain problem, but rather lack of research fund and lack of salary for researcher that make the best brain usually flooding to work in multinational and big local private companies who provide good salary.

Hi,
Thanks for the comment.
True that we are underdeveloped because of lack of good policy in our countries.
I can only speak about Pakistan and problem with research and development is multi layered.
My previous comment was becoming too long , so I had to stop, but I will write some more details here.
The auntie of mine I wrote about actually invented a new alloy while doing her PHD , but due to lack of a detailed contract between government of Pakistan and USA , despite the entire PHD funded by government of Pakistan, the US university she was sent to for PHD , retained the intellectual rights Vs copy right of her thesis and became the owner of the alloy she made. She came back to Pakistan with the PHD only .
In USA as far as I know ,the PHD students hold the copyright and intellectual property rights to their research which is shared with university.
But in my Aunties case and probably all the Pakistani PHD students sent by Government of Pakistan to USA, they exclusively Singn off all rights to their research to the American university. They can't even publishe their own paper anywhere as it becomes American universities property, let alone making any use of anything they invented or discovered during their PHD.
So basically government of Pakistan pays to contribute towards USAs technological progress ? Because Pakistan doesn't get hold of their research work, America keeps it.

 

[Kharral]

Hi,

Corona is a wrath of Allah and maybe a blessings in disguise for pakistan---. China may lose a few china based businesses and pakistan will gain quite a few of them---.

Just keep an eye on chinese industrial investments coming into pakistan after the Corona threat is over---.

Coincidently it was Bhutto’s death anniversary today. That man contributed a lot to our State building efforts/process but He made one Giant blunder & that was nationalisation.

We could do with some ballsy Traders/Capitalist/Industrialist/Enterprisers