prenups in indian weddings and islam

[magra]

Technically the Mehr is the socio-economic enablement just for the wife but she may do with it as she pleases including say setting up a business fund ( if the Mehr is money and is paid during the wedding and she has saved it ) for her children.

The OP has this :

So I think in this particular nikahnama ( marriage contract ) the future children's rights were separately arranged other than the house in her name.

When Mehr is negotiated, no one knows how many children would be born, what will be their needs (healthy, sick, disabled) or at what stage in future the divorce might happen (young, teenager, earning children).
How will the Mehr decide the right amount for children in advance then?

 

[jamahir]

When Mehr is negotiated, no one knows how many children would be born, what will be their needs (healthy, sick, disabled) or at what stage in future the divorce might happen (young, teenager, earning children).
How will the Mehr decide the right amount for children in advance then?

You are right but I just gave a general possibility. But I will write a scenario. Let's say she married at 16 and she is now 42 with her son being 24 and daughter being 22 and both children want to combinedly start a company and their mother has five lakh rupees spare from her Mehr to give to her children for them to invest as start up funds and she does give it out of her own choice.

The Mehr is her own to use as she pleases. If the Mehr is a fixed amount actually given during the wedding or if it a share in the husband's business and she thinks later in her marriage that she can do something for the benefit of her children by cutting a part out of that Mehr then what is to stop her ? Of course she should retain some of the Mehr for practical's sake.

 

[magra]

You are right but I just gave a general possibility. But I will write a scenario. Let's say she married at 16 and she is now 42 with her son being 24 and daughter being 22 and both children want to combinedly start a company and their mother has five lakh rupees spare from her Mehr to give to her children for them to invest as start up funds and she does give it out of her own choice.

The Mehr is her own to use as she pleases. If the Mehr is a fixed amount actually given during the wedding or if it a share in the husband's business and she thinks later in her marriage that she can do something for the benefit of her children by cutting a part out of that Mehr then what is to stop her ? Of course she should retain some of the Mehr for practical's sake.

People marrying at a young age are not well equipped to make sound financial decisions for their long term future. They would not know what Mehr amount would be good for them.
I would say it is better that in an event of divorce, there is a mediating party or court which decides the alimony for the wife and kids based on the circumstances at the time of divorce.

 

[jamahir]

When Mehr is negotiated, no one knows how many children would be born, what will be their needs (healthy, sick, disabled)
or at what stage in future the divorce might happen (young, teenager, earning children). How will the Mehr decide the right amount for children in advance then?

You are right, so :

1. The system should take care of the socio-economic needs of the children ( best will be two and in current India, actually the world, best will be for those two to be female for at least the next 20 years ). This thread of mine describes the outline of a new socio-economic system for the near-future. It is a Communistic one which though retaining a money system in an evolved form manages to abolish the traditional economic classes ( rich, middle, poor ).

Further, about the bank system that is part of the above socio-economic system, it should exist for the following reasons only and these statements I am quoting my previous posts :

The only reason for the existence of the bank should be to give out loans, have records for money transactions and have records for monthly loan repayments.

Money is an artificial construct which should just exist in a computer.

Money is an artificial construct. If you read my thread [ The economic system thread ] you will see that the money there simply is a monthly recycling amount for each citizen. It need not be deposited in a bank ( a savings account ) but primarily exist within the citizen's personal wearable computer in a secure digital storage. However, when citizens do financial transaction, whether on personal reasons or a B2B or B2C transaction, the amount is deducted in the personal computer and is also securely recorded by the bank so that not only is any loan amount repayment seriousness known but also political criminals ( assassins, saboteurs etc ) and anti-social criminals are not able to transact.

2. So when a divorce does happen and since most of the socio-economic needs of the wife and the children are being met by the system the Mehr can be a simple arrangement between the wife and husband to transfer some money to the wearable computer of whichever parent has custody of the children for the month / months and this money will be just extra on top of the socio-economic facilities already being provided by the system.

 

[magra]

You are right, so :

1. The system should take care of the socio-economic needs of the children ( best will be two and in current India, actually the world, best will be for those two to be female for at least the next 20 years ). This thread of mine describes the outline of a new socio-economic system for the near-future. It is a Communistic one which though retaining a money system in an evolved form manages to abolish the traditional economic classes ( rich, middle, poor ).

Further, about the bank system that is part of the above socio-economic system, it should exist for the following reasons only and these statements I am quoting my previous posts :

2. So when a divorce does happen and since most of the socio-economic needs of the wife and the children are being met by the system the Mehr can be a simple arrangement between the wife and husband to transfer some money to the wearable computer of whichever parent has custody of the children for the month / months and this money will be just extra on top of the socio-economic facilities already being provided by the system.

Are you saying that the govt should take the bulk of the responsibility of caring for the spouse and children after divorce?

 

[jamahir]

Are you saying that the govt should take the bulk of the responsibility of caring for the spouse and children after divorce?

1. To be clear about the political part of my argument I don't speak of a singular modern-Anglo-Saxon-style Government but a Governing System which is managed by the People. Direct democracy ( like in pre-2011 Libya and current Venezuela ) but guided by enlightened people at least until the time the people have some issues managing it. I am copying below post from this thread discussion. The post is about how the Libyan direct democracy system worked :

OK, let's see it from neighborhood level to country level :

In every neighborhood the residents form themselves into a BPC ( Basic People's Congress ). From the BPC the residents discuss and elect a secretariat from amongst themselves. The secretariat is supposed to put forward these citizens' ideas at the next levels.

The city is divided into such neighborhood level Basic People's Congresses and the collection of the secretariats of the BPCs is called Non-Basic People's Congress. You may call it MPC ( Municipal People's Congress ). So one MPC for a city.

The BPCs consult amongst themselves and through the MPC elect People's Committees from among eligible people to carry out administrative activities in the city ( water supply, electricity, public transport, internet, housing, bank, security etc ). The People's Committees are directly answerable to the people through the MPC.

Whenever the MPC meets, the agenda and feedback is directly done by the neighborhood level people through the secretariats of each BPC in the city.

All the MPCs in the country form the GPC ( General People's Congress ) which will discuss issues of national and international situations. For example, building a water pipeline that starts from a river in one city and goes through other cities. Another example, setting the strategic security alliance with a certain group of countries. Another example, begin to replace all privately-owned personal transport vehicles in the country with taxis and buses. All these issues can go two ways : (a). Arise from a neighborhood level BPC and go to country level GPC, (b). Proposed by the GPC and go down to be discussed in all the BPCs.

The traditional parliament is replaced by the General People's Congress. This way, issues and ideas are managed and discussed by the people directly without there being any political party existing, or any professional politician existing or the need to have any five-yearly election.

Now imagine in India's case the MPCs to be not city secretariats but instead the secretariats of the 718 districts in India currently.

2. The socio-economic system I presented earlier automatically takes care of the basic and non-basic needs of the populace. In such a scenario it would be trivial for the system to envelop a divorced couple and their children in a comfortable, non-troubled life.

 

[magra]

1. To be clear about the political part of my argument I don't speak of a singular modern-Anglo-Saxon-style Government but a Governing System which is managed by the People. Direct democracy ( like in pre-2011 Libya and current Venezuela ) but guided by enlightened people at least until the time the people have some issues managing it. I am copying below post from this thread discussion. The post is about how the Libyan direct democracy system worked :

Now imagine in India's case the MPCs to be not city secretariats but instead the secretariats of the 718 districts in India currently.

2. The socio-economic system I presented earlier automatically takes care of the basic and non-basic needs of the populace. In such a scenario it would be trivial for the system to envelop a divorced couple and their children in a comfortable, non-troubled life.

So in essence, you are advocating a system where the govt takes care of the divorced spouse and children, right?

 

[jamahir]

So in essence, you are advocating a system where the govt takes care of the divorced spouse and children, right?

Even before the divorce the spouses and their children would be taken care of by the governing system for their basic and non-basic needs so it would be a trivial thing to maintain them after divorce.

 

[magra]

Even before the divorce the spouses and their children would be taken care of by the governing system for their basic and non-basic needs so it would be a trivial thing to maintain them after divorce.

And from where will the governing system get the funds for such maintanence of all the population?

 

[jamahir]

And from where will the governing system get the funds for such maintanence of all the population?

1. In a situation where only a few countries have such a socio-economic system and some don't and only in case where those who do have a resource to purchase from those who don't, will they need either an internationally popular currency ( like the dollar ) to give or have some resource that can be exchanged ( oil, gold, food crop, minerals, services, finished goods etc ).

2. Internal to a country with such a socio-economic system the money is just a means of obtaining non-basic resources ( taxi, gym membership, hair cut, jewelry, toys etc ) and itself be a resource to be loaned to businesses who want to use it to develop a product or purchase necessary office material ( furniture, furnishing etc ).

There will be no problem in maintaining the population.

Further, if all countries adopt this socio-economic system and the political system then what system works within the country will work for all of the world, all of humanity. Such are after all two of the ultimate desires of Communism - a humanity without the artificial national boundaries and without money and economic classes.

 

[magra]

1. In a situation where only a few countries have such a socio-economic system and some don't and only in case where those who do have a resource to purchase from those who don't, will they need either an internationally popular currency ( like the dollar ) to give or have some resource that can be exchanged ( oil, gold, food crop, minerals, services, finished goods etc ).

2. Internal to a country with such a socio-economic system the money is just a means of obtaining non-basic resources ( taxi, gym membership, hair cut, jewelry, toys etc ) and itself be a resource to be loaned to businesses who want to use it to develop a product or purchase necessary office material ( furniture, furnishing etc ).

There will be no problem in maintaining the population.

Further, if all countries adopt this socio-economic system and the political system then what system works within the country will work for all of the world, all of humanity. Such are after all two of the ultimate desires of Communism - a humanity without the artificial national boundaries and without money and economic classes.

Forget money for a second. Lets take a scenario where there is a village of a 100 people. If 90 people in the village decide not to work expecting the 'village' to take care of them, then the village will not have sufficient grains to feed them. If lets say 90 people work, but 10 people dont want to work. In that case, the village may have extra grains to feed those 10 ppl, but the 90 people will rightfully complain against this injustice of feeding those 10.

 

[jamahir]

Forget money for a second. Lets take a scenario where there is a village of a 100 people. If 90 people in the village decide not to work expecting the 'village' to take care of them, then the village will not have sufficient grains to feed them. If lets say 90 people work, but 10 people dont want to work. In that case, the village may have extra grains to feed those 10 ppl, but the 90 people will rightfully complain against this injustice of feeding those 10.

1. The village is the 100 people. The Communist credo "From each according to his ability, to each according to need" is applied to ensure participation from every physically or mentally able member of the village. The "Don't want to work" people will be duly censured and asked why they don't want to contribute to the village and action taken accordingly.

2. To take your grains example modern technologies such as 3D Printing, computerized Vertical Farming and lab-grown meat can ensure that unnecessary labor is avoided and the person can contribute to the fullest of his talents.

 

[magra]

1. The village is the 100 people. The Communist credo "From each according to his ability, to each according to need" is applied to ensure participation from every physically or mentally able member of the village. The "Don't want to work" people will be duly censured and asked why they don't want to contribute to the village and action taken accordingly.

So you do agree that even in your model, there will be no free meals for any able bodied person. So it should be the responsibility of a person to take care of his / her family. The system should only help with bare minimum necessities if the person is unable to fulfill his responsibility despite all efforts.

2. To take your grains example modern technologies such as 3D Printing, computerized Vertical Farming and lab-grown meat can ensure that unnecessary labor is avoided and the person can contribute to the fullest of his talents.

Whether it is grains, 3D printing, vertical farming, there will be some people needed to create / manage / monitor these things.

 

[jamahir]

So you do agree that even in your model, there will be no free meals for any able bodied person. So it should be the responsibility of a person to take care of his / her family. The system should only help with bare minimum necessities if the person is unable to fulfill his responsibility despite all efforts.

Not so. The system will provide the basic resources to every person for free and will ensure that the non-basic resources can be obtained by the citizen through the evolved money system without struggle but in return the system expects the citizen to contribute to society's day-to-day running and the system will ensure that the citizen's talents are fully allowed to be exploited by the society. Socio-economic harmony will thus be ensured.

Whether it is grains, 3D printing, vertical farming, there will be some people needed to create / manage / monitor these things.

Of course. It can be dedicated professionals who do it but they can also be supported by citizens who can be alloted such duties for a short but recurring period. For example a bi-weekly support duty in the neighborhood security team or in the neighborhood Vertical Farm.

 

[magra]

Not so. The system will provide the basic resources to every person for free and will ensure that the non-basic resources can be obtained by the citizen through the evolved money system without struggle but in return the system expects the citizen to contribute to society's day-to-day running and the system will ensure that the citizen's talents are fully allowed to be exploited by the society. Socio-economic harmony will thus be ensured.

All this work assuming all able bodied citizens work to their full potential. If basic resources are free and non-basic resources are easily obtainable, it will take away the incentive from many citizens to work to their full potential.