PN mini-submarine fleet

[MastanKhan]

Fair enough. Surely the decision makers know what they are doing, and those in the industry and with technical know-how know better.

Hi,

Sometimes they do---and sometimes they don't---.

There is so much information out there in the public that a critical mind can come out with a very good solution.

The problem here is that the technology is leaping forward at such a vast speed---and because of that it takes a lots of discipline to stick with what you planned on---.

 

[araz]

I just saw the 3rd-party leaks of the DG-450. Indeed, it's a formidable design relative to the size.

Could you post it as I cant find the relevant material.
Regards
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Could you post it as I cant find the relevant material.
Regards
A

http://www.hisutton.com/DRASS.html

 

[khanasifm]

Didn’t last modp annual report had a similar mini sub listed as being developed by kse assuming based on previous experience with Italian mini subs ?

If that’s the case and it’s successful than there is no need for Chinese or it could be based on Chinese input who knows

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Didn’t last modp annual report had a similar mini sub listed as being developed by kse assuming based on previous experience with Italian mini subs ?

If that’s the case and it’s successful than there is no need for Chinese or it could be based on Chinese input who knows

There was a DGMP project for Midget development but I dont think it went through.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

It is not realistic to obtain drawings from NK or IR. Both are stolen/out of date Italian designs. Most operational compact sub out there in the world has something to do with Italy. This tells you that the only country with real experience is Italians. Rest are hopefuls.

As someone pointed out, Pakistan Navy is one fo the most experienced submarine force in Asia, and a pioneer, including operation of compact submarines. I am sure that PN has plans in place to stay ahead of the curve in SWATS arena.

 

[Armchair]

From the link:

Based in La Spezia, conveniently near to the Italian naval Special Forces (COMSUBIN), Drass were close neighbors of Cos.Mo.S during the time that the latter was a major midget submarine and SDV exporter. So it is not entirely Surprising that Drass have taken over the Cos.Mo.S designs after they went out of business (see notes HERE). Although the fundamental designs are established classics from Cos.Mo.S, Drass has incorporated up to date lithium-ion battery technology, a new control and navigation module and the latest generation of sensors.

the 450 seems to be a new design though, its very boxy. Wonder if that helps with stealth. Design suggests this would be a relatively slow submarine. Which compromises the main mission of a simple design that vectors to an Indian port, lets loose, and hurries back home.
More than the SDV component, I'm interested in a suicide UUV armed with torpedoes.
Get to the vicinity of an Indian port, launch UUVs, mine anticipated enemy vectors, get out of there. Given open source information (and admittedly a complete lack of professional expertise in the field), the above just seems to most practical and effective solution.

Get a separate special forces delivery submarine for a Kutch landing, and to neutralize Dwarka.

DS4 4-man SDV
The DS4 is a minimal evolution of the Cos.Mo.S CE4F project for the Turkish Navy's SAT (Su Altı Taarruz) in the late-1990s to early-2000s.

Mini submarines meant havoc and took down hundreds of thousands of tons of enemy shipping in WW2. The natural inclination has always been to make things bigger and badder, in almost any weapons system other than perhaps small arms. With lithium-ion batteries, there is a really effective solution here that would force IN to spend a good portion of its resources in defense.

Imagine also the moral and psychological victory of Indian ports burning. It would be in the news worldwide and something to remember for decades.

You could even have an SDV with torpedoes, manned to attack a port. Which has its own pros and cons.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

From the link:

Based in La Spezia, conveniently near to the Italian naval Special Forces (COMSUBIN), Drass were close neighbors of Cos.Mo.S during the time that the latter was a major midget submarine and SDV exporter. So it is not entirely Surprising that Drass have taken over the Cos.Mo.S designs after they went out of business (see notes HERE). Although the fundamental designs are established classics from Cos.Mo.S, Drass has incorporated up to date lithium-ion battery technology, a new control and navigation module and the latest generation of sensors.

the 450 seems to be a new design though, its very boxy. Wonder if that helps with stealth. Design suggests this would be a relatively slow submarine. Which compromises the main mission of a simple design that vectors to an Indian port, lets loose, and hurries back home.
More than the SDV component, I'm interested in a suicide UUV armed with torpedoes.
Get to the vicinity of an Indian port, launch UUVs, mine anticipated enemy vectors, get out of there. Given open source information (and admittedly a complete lack of professional expertise in the field), the above just seems to most practical and effective solution.

Get a separate special forces delivery submarine for a Kutch landing, and to neutralize Dwarka.

DS4 4-man SDV
The DS4 is a minimal evolution of the Cos.Mo.S CE4F project for the Turkish Navy's SAT (Su Altı Taarruz) in the late-1990s to early-2000s.

Mini submarines meant havoc and took down hundreds of thousands of tons of enemy shipping in WW2. The natural inclination has always been to make things bigger and badder, in almost any weapons system other than perhaps small arms. With lithium-ion batteries, there is a really effective solution here that would force IN to spend a good portion of its resources in defense.

Imagine also the moral and psychological victory of Indian ports burning. It would be in the news worldwide and something to remember for decades.

You could even have an SDV with torpedoes, manned to attack a port. Which has its own pros and cons.

Easy there tiger with your imagery. There is no such thing as "boxy" in this design and lets not put any Indian ports on fire.

Drass was designing midget submarines way before CosMos. I believe most of the design teams moved to successful companies like Drass Galezzi and GSE after they were closed by the Italian Government due to Cardoen affair. The DG450 shows decades of Italian experience of compact submarine design. That is its true pedigree.

The DG 450 seems to be nothing like anything CosMos has ever produced. CosMos was a low cost midget submarine developer. Most of its platforms were manual bare knuckle sort of boats. From the leaked data, DG450 seems to be a very mature, technical, and fully automated approach, what Submariners prefer in a submarine. From the available data, the hull is low noise stealth low acoustic design. There seems to be a bow mounted sonar but its very hard to tell. The tail form is X instead of the conventional rudder of Cosmos. The prop is 5 blade skewed instead of the two blade conventional prop of cosmos MG110 sold to PK. The design shows 03 HWT and 04 LWTs, and carriage for 02 DS4 or DS6 type SDVs. The same area on the upper fairing can infiltrate or recover larger UUVs, or UUVs can be launched from HWTs. The carriage for mines, that is likely for this platform, seems to be internal, probably stern and aft.

The vertical design of the craft is still hydrodynamic and a Naca profile, but designed so that the submarine can be bottomed. The sub will be not be flying in the air that you have to worry about Radar cross section. From the air, the submarine will have hardly any visibility when compared to conventional sub. This design will also be extremely small echo return (the fairing seems anechoic) when the sub turns towards an approaching submarine or ship. This is not a feature for conventional submarines.

Overall, DG450 seems to be a compact submarine (450 tons), that would be effective for coastal operations and force multiplier for conventional submarine, having the ability to do many similar tasks. However, it has a secondary capability for special forces or UUV package delivery/recovery, which will be a big plus. Any special forces insertion or exfiltration maybe one fo the secondary roles for Pakistan Navy, as they study the right platform for their emerging SWATS doctrine.

 

[Armchair]

RETHINK:

Perhaps the solution PN wants is two SDVs armed with mini-torpedoes along with a mini-submarine. All three attack a port - devastating as an SDV can carry 8x mini-torpedoes. This maximizes utilization compared to my solution above, as the submarine engages the enemy alongside the SDVs. UUVs may have a difficult time targeting stationary ships at port.

Two SDVs each carrying 8x mini-torpedoes (see the SDV plans in the link shared by Bilal Q). The mini submarine carrying 4x heavyweight torpedoes attacking from range, with 8x light torpedoes. Within 15 minutes from start of firing they could devastate the entire port. That's a total of 26 torpedoes, each could potentially be 100% on target, given the enemy is caught unawares.

15 minutes later, the submarines and SDVs have already existed the area. 30 minutes and an Indian port devastated.

Easy there tiger with your imagery. There is no such thing as "boxy" in this design and lets not put any Indian ports on fire.

Drass was designed midget submarines way before CosMos. I believe most the design team moved to successful companies like Drass Galezzi after they were closed by the Italian Government. The DG450 shows decades of Italian experience of compact submarine design. That is its true pedigree.

The DG 450 seems to be nothing like anything CosMos has ever produced. CosMos was a low cost midget submarine developer. Most of its platforms were manual bare knuckle sort of boats. From the leaked data, DG450 seems to be a very mature, technical, and fully automated approach, what Submarines prefer in a submarine. From the available data, the hull is low noise stealth low acoustic design. There seems to be a bow mounted sonar but its very hard to tell. The tail form is X instead of the conventional rudder of Cosmos. The prop is 5 blade skewed instead of the two blade conventional prop of cosmos MD110 sold to PK. The design shows 03 HWT and 04 LWTs, and carriage for 02 DS4 or DS6 type SDVs. The same area on the upper fairing can infiltrate or recover larger UUVs, or UUVs can be launched from HWTs. The carriage for mines, that is likely for this platform, seems to be internal, probably stern and aft.

The vertical design of the craft is still hydrodynamic and a Naca profile, but designed so that the submarine can be bottomed. The sub will be not be flying in the air that you have to worry about Radar cross section. From the air, the submarine will have hardly any visibility when compared to conventional sub. This design will also be extremely small echo return (the fairing seems anechoic) when the sub turns towards an approaching submarine or ship. This is not a feature for conventional submarines.

Overall, DG450 seems to be a compact submarine (450 tons), that would be effective for coastal operations and force multiplier for conventional submarine, having the ability to do many similar tasks. However, it has a secondary capability for special forces or UUV package delivery/recovery, which will be a big plus. Any special forces insertion or exfiltration maybe one fo the secondary roles for Pakistan Navy, as they study the right platform for their emerging SWATS doctrine.

Thanks again.

Yes, its definitely making sense on second thought.

The idea of a stealth submarine existed in the US (faceted design showed that sonar stealth was achievable, USN refused due to the design slowing down the submarine a few knots, which was critical for it to keep up with the battle group).

Thank you very much for the technical reply, that does give me... even more ideas...

 

[khanmubashir]

Imagine an autonomous mini sub like submersible platform capable of launching a wide type of weapons even a ballistic missile

 

[BHarwana]

Pakistan has modified versions MG 110 Italian mini Submarines. Last one was inducted some time back. They were built at Karachi Shipyard.

 

[Armchair]

@Bilal Khan 777 tagging you just in case you missed my edited reply.

 

[Zarvan]

FYI there are a few new options from China's CSIC:

CSIC MS200

• displacement: 200 tons | length: 30 m
• crew: 6 + 8 SOF
• range: 120 nm (submerged) | 1,500 nm (surfaced)
• 2 torpedo tubes
• endurance 15 days

CSIC 600-ton AIP submarine

• displacement: 600 tons | length: 50 m
• crew 15
• range: 400 nm (submerged w/AIP) | 2,000 nm (surfaced)
• 4 torpedo tubes
• endurance: 20 days

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...s-three-new-submarine-designs-for-export.html

Second one is great option specially as it can remain in water for 20 days. 4 to 6 of these could be given mission to hunt down as many enemy subs as they can

 

[MastanKhan]

Second one is great option specially as it can remain in water for 20 days. 4 to 6 of these could be given mission to hunt down as many enemy subs as they can

Hi,

Mini subs don't hunt enemy subs---. Just small naval craft that has run astray or for special operations.

A regular sized subs has a very strong EW suite and massive amount of fire power---.

RETHINK:

Perhaps the solution PN wants is two SDVs armed with mini-torpedoes along with a mini-submarine. All three attack a port - devastating as an SDV can carry 8x mini-torpedoes. This maximizes utilization compared to my solution above, as the submarine engages the enemy alongside the SDVs. UUVs may have a difficult time targeting stationary ships at port.

Two SDVs each carrying 8x mini-torpedoes (see the SDV plans in the link shared by Bilal Q). The mini submarine carrying 4x heavyweight torpedoes attacking from range, with 8x light torpedoes. Within 15 minutes from start of firing they could devastate the entire port. That's a total of 26 torpedoes, each could potentially be 100% on target, given the enemy is caught unawares.

15 minutes later, the submarines and SDVs have already existed the area. 30 minutes and an Indian port devastated.



Thanks again.

Yes, its definitely making sense on second thought.

The idea of a stealth submarine existed in the US (faceted design showed that sonar stealth was achievable, USN refused due to the design slowing down the submarine a few knots, which was critical for it to keep up with the battle group).

Thank you very much for the technical reply, that does give me... even more ideas...

Hi,

I think you need to read up on Joe Buff---.

All US subs are comparatively stealth as compared to the subs of russia and china---.

The Wolfe class sub at Flank speed is quieter than some russian subs sitting in the submarine pen---.

Just like the tactical nucs---what pak navy needs are sub kiloton nuc tipped torps---. If exploded under the keel of an A/C carrier---it will break its back or lift it up and throw it upside down---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

Mini subs don't hunt enemy subs---. Just small naval craft that has run astray or for special operations.

A regular sized subs has a very strong EW suite and massive amount of fire power---.



Hi,

I think you need to read up on Joe Buff---.

All US subs are comparatively stealth as compared to the subs of russia and china---.

The Wolfe class sub at Flank speed is quieter than some russian subs sitting in the submarine pen---.

Just like the tactical nucs---what pak navy needs are sub kiloton nuc tipped torps---. If exploded under the keel of an A/C carrier---it will break its back or lift it up and throw it upside down---.

Thanks, I will check him out. Another nuke experiment done was, instead of using the nuke directly on a ship, they detonated it underwater, creating a tsunami. It was found to damage a flotilla a lot more than air-burst.

I will try to dig up the article - the folks that developed stealth for fighter aircraft took the ideas to the navy, designing a faceted submarine, which improved stealth even further. Currently stealth is achieved by tiles / other material and acoustic suppression, what they proposed was shaping (faceted, diamond-like shaping). This was rejected, not because it didn't work, but because it slowed down the submarine a few knots.

I wonder if the gap between Russian / Chinese and US submarines are smaller than at any point in past history.