PIL asks why India is procuring obsolete defence equipment

[Span]

The Supreme Court on Thursday sought responses of the Centre and the three Service chiefs on a PIL seeking to know why the government was procuring junked aircraft carriers and maintaining ageing fighter aircraft and submarines which were a drain on national resources and danger to men in uniform.
NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court on Thursday sought responses of the Centre and the three Service chiefs on a PIL seeking to know why the government was procuring junked aircraft carriers and maintaining ageing fighter aircraft and submarines which were a drain on national resources and danger to men in uniform.

A bench of Chief Justice P Sathasivam and Justices Ranjan Gogoi and N V Ramana issued notice on a PIL filed by six advocates led by Ranvir Yadav.

The petitioners' counsel D K Garg said citizens wanted to know why the government was "procuring outdated arms, ammunition and fighter jets, refurbished submarines and frontline warships having obsolete techniques of last century which have been decommissioned as outdated, for our armed forces, the second largest in the world".

The petitioners also wanted to know why India, despite rapid advancement in technology, was importing basic arms and ammunition, equipment and other material such as bullet-proof jackets, high-altitude gear, assault rifle ammunition, sniper rifles, gloves, sleeping bags and mountaineering equipment for the armed forces when it could be manufactured in the country.

"The political class is indulging in scams, frauds and making huge money by maintaining secrecy in defence procurements. About Rs 2 lakh crore has been spent now on the Arjun tank project but it is yet to be rolled out," they said.

The petitioners sought a direction from the court to the Centre to phase out all "obsolete, malfunctioning and outdated ageing naval warships, submarines, arms and artillery" and put in place a transparent defence procurement plan.

Defence News - PIL asks why India is procuring obsolete defence equipment

 

[Indus Falcon]

Service Chiefs replied to the Supreme Court - "Cause thats where the money is "

 

[Indischer]

You get what you pay for. One can't get a Nimitz for the price of a Gorshkov.

 

[Indus Falcon]

You get what you pay for. One can't get a Nimitz for the price of a Gorshkov.

Well said

 

[Abingdonboy]

1) At the time the Russians were offering the Viky free with a pretty negligible amount for refit works. The IN/MoD didn't ask the Russians to inflate this deal to in excess of 2.35 billion! Having said that calling the Viky aged/obsolete is pretty unfair, ir is almost a brand new ship in terms of electronics and capabilities, yes not as good as something built today but far from obsolete.

2) Why is the IAF maintaining obsolete fighters? Because the GoI/MoD royally screwed up in the 90s in terms of getting a replacement for the MiGs in place and b) the LCA is STILL nowhere to be seen. Unless these judges want the IAF's SQD strength to be even FURTHER away from its sanctioned strength. It is unavoidable sadly the situation will be different in 3-4 years with the LCA finally in service and the first lot of Rafales entering service.

3) what "outdated" fighter jets is the IAF/IN procuring?

4) The "outdated" submarine of question is the Chakra I suspect. Considering India has precisely 0 SSNs under construction and needs proven NUCLEAR submarine to train future SSN/SSBN crews on this was a rather pragmatic decsion to lease the Akula really.

5) Other than the Viky and Jalashwa (bought for next to nothing btw) what second hand warships is the IN getting? Almost every other frontline ship is state of the art, modern and made in India.


6) "The petitioners sought a direction from the court to the Centre to phase out all obsolete, malfunctioning and outdated ageing naval warships, submarines, arms and artillery" that would be lovely wouldn't it? If only wishing for such an outcome actually made it come true...... I mean are these guys for real? As if nothing is being done. 46 major warships are under construction right now in India, the Scorpenes have been delayed for reasons beyond the IN's control meaning the outdated Kilos have to stay in service that little bit longer and competitions are on for arty across the board- ULH, MGS, towed etc



7) the Arjun HAS been rolled out, 124 tanks have already been inducted and the IA has placed orders for 124 MK.2s and will order more if it performs well.

I have enormous respect for the Supreme Court of India but it seems they are making amateur mistakes here.....

 

[Span]

Viky free with a pretty negligible amount for refit works..

Since when is US$800 million negligible? :p

As for the Arjun MBT, I'm reading some articles which claim the tank failed on a couple of parameters, thus, not impressing the army. I wonder if this is true, cause as you state, it already has been inducted. And the mark 2 version is somewhat heavy, thereby, limiting the areas in which it can be deployed. However, it is still undergoing trials, so they could very well address this.

Reckon the petitioner got charged while watching one 'Arnab' debate. And the SC has just sought a response from the Centre, no harm there. To address this PIL, it is necessary to seek info from the govt, for the bench may not have any defense experts/necessary information.

That's one interesting incident, didn't know:

When the trials were ongoing, a Norwegian P-3 Orion aircraft observed Vikramaditya. While in international waters, it flew close to the ship to take photographs, and also dropped sonobuoys to record the ship's acoustic signature. The Norwegian aircraft left the area when a Russian Mig-29 arrived. A Norwegian ship was also seen to observe Vikramaditya.

 

[Abingdonboy]

As for the Arjun MBT, I'm reading some articles which claim the tank failed on a couple of parameters, thus, not impressing the army.

Which parameters were these? In comparative trials the Arjun Mk.1 completely thrashed the IA's T-90S. Yes, the IA is having to get used to operating a heavier MBT as opposed to the medium weight Russian-origin MBTs it has had for the past few decades but this is merely a learning curve they have to go through but will come out the other side all the better for it. The Mk.1 Arjun has lower ground pressure footprint than the T-90S thanks to some very clever suspension and the tracks, the Mk.2 will have the same ground pressure figures as the Mk.1. The IA has already ordered train carriages for transporting the Arjuns. It will take some time to get the infrastructure set up but it will happen and IS happening as we speak.

By all accounts the Arjun Mk.1 has performed exceptionally well in service.

That's one interesting incident, I didn't know:

It was quite extensively covered on here at the time bro.

 

[Span]

Which parameters were these?
.

Well in one of the reports of Parliamentary Standing Committee on defense, whose agenda was to evaluate DRDO's performance, a couple of shortcomings of Arjun MBT were mentioned coupled with specific data on areas where it failed. I obviously do not remember, but it failed to achieve the standards required by the army. (The standing committee report which I'm citing belongs to 2011/2012, things could have changed)

And here's one piece of info out there, citing the parameters it failed on, comparatively old though:

Press Information Bureau English Releases

It was quite extensively covered on here at the time bro.

Just over a month here, I've much to catch up on

 

[Abingdonboy]

Well in one of the reports of Parliamentary Standing Committee on defense, whose agenda was to evaluate DRDO's performance, a couple of shortcomings of Arjun MBT were mentioned coupled with specific data on areas where it failed. I obviously do not remember, but it failed to achieve the standards required by the army. (The standing committee report which I'm citing belongs to 2011/2012, things could have changed)

And here's one piece of info out there, citing the parameters it failed on, comparatively old though:

Press Information Bureau English Release

Bro, these defects are incredibly minor, nothing terminal. Such issues can be addressed through a number of ways depending on their respective causes. In terms of performance the Arjun Mk.1 has, to date, impressed the IA.

 

[Span]

Bro, these defects are incredibly minor, nothing terminal. Such issues can be addressed through a number of ways depending on their respective causes. In terms of performance the Arjun Mk.1 has, to date, impressed the IA.

I cannot share the standing committee report, but trust me, the army is not happy altogether with Mk.1.

Let's hope the issues are resolved now anyway, it's time we move onto FMBT!

 

[Abingdonboy]

I cannot share the standing committee report, but trust me, the army is not happy altogether with Mk.1.

Let's hope the issues are resolved now anyway, it's time we move onto FMBT!

Like with the LCA, the Mk.1 version is not the full-spec version the user desires but is a damn fine start and will be improved upon by their later models (Mk.2) which is what the users really want.

But to be fair, the Mk.1 has not done badly at all, yes there are teething issues but the machine itself at a fundamental level is a good machine and better than what is already in service (T-90S). The initial issues will be sorted out of that i have no doubt. If it was easy, everyone would do it.....

 

[Gessler]

Bro, these defects are incredibly minor, nothing terminal. Such issues can be addressed through a number of ways depending on their respective causes. In terms of performance the Arjun Mk.1 has, to date, impressed the IA.

It's really nothing compared to the barrel-bursting problems that the T-72s had some years ago. (solved now)

I don't see them complaining about that.