Pallywood: Debunking Palestinean Lies

[kalu_miah]

Since this has been a hot topic, I am posting this material, my 0.02, for the 3rd time:

Arab-Israeli conflict:
Arab

A report by Strategic Foresight Group has estimated the opportunity cost of conflict for the Middle East from 1991-2010 at $12 trillion. The report's opportunity cost calculates the peace GDP of countries in the Middle East by comparing the current GDP to the potential GDP in times of peace. Israel's share is almost $1 trillion, with Iraq and Saudi Arabia having approximately $2.2 and $4.5 trillion, respectively. In other words, had there been peace and cooperation between Israel and Arab League nations since 1991, the average Israeli citizen would be earning over $44,000 instead of $23,000 in 2010.[102]
In terms of the human cost, it is estimated that the conflict has taken 92,000 lives (74,000 military and 18,000 civilian from 1945 to 1995).[1]

It is my belief the main misunderstanding on the part of Arabs has been not recognizing the fact that because of the history of Jewish people in European lands, they are an inseparable part of Western civilization. Essentially Jewish people throughout history have played key roles in this civilization, not to mention have been a victim for most of history, until quite recently. So the state of Israel, as a home for this victimized population, from European lands as well as Arab lands (after 1947), will be under protection of the West, as its very own. This means that if Arab people want to beat Israel in a military conflict, they would have to eclipse the West in military power. For one thing, Arab League only has a population of about 350 million, whereas the size of the West is increasing, as it absorbs more of the former Soviet countries in Eastern Europe. Currently the West has about 1 billion people. Considering the difference in HDI (Human Development Index) in Arab lands and the West, it does not seem possible that Arabs would at any time in the foreseeable future be able to eclipse the West in terms of economic power, which translates directly into military power. Even if Arabs were to team up with the whole of Muslim world, which is about 1.6 billion in population, divided in many states and in different continents, who have little in common other than following a common religion, even then, the Muslims collectively would not be able to match the West in economic or military power for the foreseeable future. So if this is the big picture, what should be done to solve this problem?

First thing would be to recognize that this conflict is un-winnable for Arabs or Muslims by military means. So continuation of hostility is only providing opportunity to Israel to grab more lands illegally and also allowing other enemy's of Islam such as Hindu India to team up with Israel and enhance their combined ability to run a world wide campaign of Islamophobia which affects all Muslims negatively and further antagonizes Muslims against Israel and Jewish people. Not only that, it also gives lunatics like OBL and others to take up the cause and create further rift between the West and Muslims.

So my suggestion would be to analyze this situation by some responsible body such as Arab League or OIC and come to some important decisions:

1. Settle the conflict between Israel and Palestinians once and for all, even under unfavorable terms that tilts to favor Israel
2. Once the conflict is settled, maintain peace at all cost
3. No more hostility from Arab/Palestinian side
4. Gaza to be integrated with Egyptian economy and West Bank to be integrated with Jordanian economy
5. Ask Jewish groups in the US, Israel and elsewhere to cease their campaign of Islamophobia and activities to undermine the future positive developments of Arabs and Muslims of the world and end their partnerships in these activities with Hindu nationalist groups who are engaged in these same activities

 

[Skorpian]

4. Gaza to be integrated with Egyptian economy and West Bank to be integrated with Jordanian economy

You said it well, but that sentence is debatable. First of all, we want East Jerusalem. We want al Aqsa mosque. Second, why annex Gaza and the West Bank to other countries? Why not establish a Palestinian state there? Note : not a country without a military, the Palestinians, if they ever have a state, have the full right to defend themselves with good armed forces in the same sense that Israel consider itself to have.
P.S : And I'm still waiting for someone who's pro-Israeli to answer my previous question.

 

[kalu_miah]

You said it well, but that sentence is debatable. First of all, we want East Jerusalem. We want al Aqsa mosque. Second, why annex Gaza and the West Bank to other countries? Why not establish a Palestinian state there? Note : not a country without a military, the Palestinians, if they ever have a state, have the full right to defend themselves with good armed forces in the same sense that Israel consider itself to have.
P.S : And I'm still waiting for someone who's pro-Israeli to answer my previous question.

To answer this question, we need to look at the genesis of the idea of "nationalism" (similar to Asabiyyah in Arabic, made famous by Ibn Khaldun's Muqaddimah):
Nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Asabiyyah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Problem has been that without understanding geopolitics ourselves, we have become victims of external forces and geopolitics, nationalism being part of one of these forces that determined our fate.

So what I would like to say is that we first have to understand geopolitics itself really well and then use our "-isms" or "memes" strategically to further our "geopolitical" interest. If we do not, we will always be victims of manipulation by our enemy's or even so called friends.

I will get more into geopolitics and regional geopolitics in future threads, as I am interested to learn and share ideas with others on these subjects.

East Jerusalem and Al Aqsa mosque, we should definitely try our best to get, but unfortunately we do not have the upper hand, we should settle for what we can get, before they create further "facts on the ground".

I am for the Palestinian state, but in two autonomous wings and these autonomous wings should separate and integrate with their neighbors is all I am saying, because they are too small to be viable and will always create problems for neighbors. As for future road map for the greater region, if you have not already seen my ideas, please take a brief look here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...rld-order-road-map-future-11.html#post2836627

 

[King Solomon]

I've asked this question before and didn't receive an answer, and I wish for someone pro-Israeli to answer this question : Are lands distributed by religion? If any group of people of certain religion used to live in a certain place but not any more, does that give them the right to go there and establish a country? Even if they weren't there for centuries and were mixed with lots of people? That's exactly what happened with Israel. I want a single Israeli to prove to me that his far ancestors actually used to live there in Palestine. The Jews weren't only in Palestine throughout the history, there were in different places as well, but ironically, every single Jew around the whole globe was given the right to go to Israel.

Well, Zionism is a form of Jewish Nationalism based on the ancient Kingdom of Israel which was centered in Jerusalem. Unfortunately, Jews were persecuted by the Babylonians, Romans and also the Arabs after that and they were dispersed from there to the whole world due to this persecution.

Now, the British empire, who occupied the middle east during WWI, has given them a homeland of their own. Their ancestral homeland. Thus, naturally you see all jews from all over the world migrating to Israel. Many jews migrated from Russia to Israel.

 

[somebozo]

Well, Zionism is a form of Jewish Nationalism based on the ancient Kingdom of Israel which was centered in Jerusalem. Unfortunately, Jews were persecuted by the Babylonians, Romans and also the Arabs after that and they were dispersed from there to the whole world due to this persecution.

Now, the British empire, who occupied the middle east during WWI, has given them a homeland of their own. Their ancestral homeland. Thus, naturally you see all jews from all over the world migrating to Israel. Many jews migrated from Russia to Israel.

Much of the antisemitism was a European colonial export to their vassals like Hashmits, Al-Khalifas, Al Thanis and Al-Sauds to use as a base for rallying support against the Ottoman. The British particularly spread propaganda under their divide and rule policy which portrayed Jews as theives and usurpers and ottomans as their supports.. This propoganda helped greatly in the fall of Ottoman Empire and unleashing and Era of anti-semitism in the middle east.

Antisemitism in the Arab world refers to discrimination against Jews in Arab countries. While Arabs are also a Semitic people, the meaning of the English term "antisemitism" refers to discrimination against Jews (see Antisemitism: Etymology and usage).
Arab antisemitism is believed to have expanded since the 19th century. Jews, like other minority groups within the Muslim world, were subject to various restrictions long before that (see Dhimmi). However, despite its restrictive nature, dhimmi status also afforded the "People of the Book" relative security against persecution and welfare most of the time—a protection that was missing for non-Christians in most of Europe until the institutionalization of equality under a secular idea of citizenship after the French Revolution—and allowed them to enjoy their respective religious laws and ways of life.


Antisemitism in the Arab world has increased greatly in modern times, for many reasons: the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire and traditional Islamic society; European influence, brought about by Western imperialism and Christian Arabs;[1] Nazi propaganda;[2] and the rise of Arab nationalism. The rise of political Islam during the 1980s and afterwards provided a new mutation of Islamic anti-Semitism, which gave the hatred of Jews a religious component.


For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews.


While there were antisemitic incidents in the early twentieth century, antisemitism has certainly been heightened by the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian exodus, the creation of the state of Israel, Israeli victories during the wars of 1956 and 1967 served a severe shock to the Arabs.[4] The situation of the Middle Eastern Jews worsened and almost all fled or were expelled from their native countries. By the 1980s, according to Bernard Lewis, the volume of antisemitic literature published in the Arab world, and the authority of its sponsors, seemed to suggest that classical antisemitism had become an essential part of Arab intellectual life, considerably more than in late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century France, and to a degree that has been compared to Nazi Germany.

 

[King Solomon]

Much of the antisemitism was a European colonial export to their vassals like Hashmits, Al-Khalifas, Al Thanis and Al-Sauds to use as a base for rallying support against the Ottoman. The British particularly spread propaganda under their divide and rule policy which portrayed Jews as theives and usurpers and ottomans as their supports.. This propoganda helped greatly in the fall of Ottoman Empire and unleashing and Era of anti-semitism in the middle east.

Yes, I know that. Historically, muslims have never been anti semitic except one or two battles fought against jews by prophet mohammed. For the most part jews lived peacefully within islamic empires. They were respected because Quran gives them a high status. When spain was conquered by Isabella, not only the muslims but the jews were also evicted from there. Anti semitism is something characteristic of Euro christendom.

No wonder anti semitism among muslims increased near the ottoman empire's demise. It is definitely not a coincidence. Today, anti-semitism is considered an intrinsic part of Najdi islamism, whose influence corrupted many sects. Corrupt Arab rulers use anti semitism to control gullible muslims and further their own interest.

 

[somebozo]

I am not talking about Identity. Palestine never existed as an Independent nation after Islam. Neither was Jordan, UAE, Kuwait, Tunis and dozens of other countries around the globe. I am saying that doesn't mean that there were no Arabs living in Palestine in the 14 centuries, They were always the overwhelming majority. Just because they didn't have a defined border with Jordan and other countries, and just because they were culturally smiler to eachother, it doesn't mean they should be kicked out from Palestine.

nobody kicked them out, they left on the promises made by arab despots like Saddam and King Hussien who proclaimed to wipe Israel out of the map in 24 hours. Well war did occur in 1948 and guess what....Israel was not wiped rather it grew bigger...

I think after the creation of Israel, they began to have a national resistance identity. Some put to much emphasize on it, Sykes–Picot Agreement should not define our identity IMO .


Arab tribes have been migrating outside Arabia for over 2000 years, bloods mixed beyond recognition.

Exactly and Arab migration as Arabized atleast a dozen non-arab countries and now turned them into arab countries. For example, Syria, Libya, Tunis, Lebanon these were all non-arab countries of Roman, Syriac & Berber population which became arabized over time due to Arab conquests and migration. If it was ok for nomadic Arab to settle around and turn the identities of the countries - then why can you accecpt the same for Israel - where the majority is still Arab Jews who migrated during the Arab Jewish exodus.. Frankly, it has to do with the Arab mentality where they see it as their god given right to export their views and colonies but do not welcome anything foreign in their lands..they consider ME and Greater ME as their backyard. Overtime this mentality has grown and spilled over every sector of Arab world - hence the society is completely fragmented.

I've asked this question before and didn't receive an answer, and I wish for someone pro-Israeli to answer this question : Are lands distributed by religion? If any group of people of certain religion used to live in a certain place but not any more, does that give them the right to go there and establish a country? Even if they weren't there for centuries and were mixed with lots of people? That's exactly what happened with Israel. I want a single Israeli to prove to me that his far ancestors actually used to live there in Palestine. The Jews weren't only in Palestine throughout the history, there were in different places as well, but ironically, every single Jew around the whole globe was given the right to go to Israel.

In your case, if the land are not distributed by religion then what gives certain people the right to conquer foreign lands and establish their communities??? You as Egyptian is not originally Arab either and so are Syrians, Lebanese, Moroccans, etc...if Arabs can conquest a bunch of land in North Africa and Arabize them then the reverse should be equally accepted.

Can we demand a single Arab to prove that their far ancestors lived in the todays land of Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, etc?

Regarding the Jewish immigration to Israel - well this is what the ideological states do..when Pakistan was founded it gave every single Muslim the right to immigrate and while a majority came from India but droves of Muslims also came from then Soviet republics of Central Asia, Soviet Occupied Poland and East-Germany...The position of Israel is unique and so is Pakistan...

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

I always found it funny that even gulf Arabs who are themselves Semitic get called Anti-Semitic just because many of them aren't fond of the Israelites. In fact I even find it odd that the word Anti-Semitic is usually taken to only mean Anti-Jewish even though there are so many Semitic people around.

Anyway leaving that aside I just want to say that even though the early Muslim Arabs did fight with the Jews, it does not make them Anti-Semitic. They fought them because they had violated a treaty by siding with the Meccans, not because they were Anti-Semitic or Anti-Jewish or whatever.

 

[somebozo]

I always found it funny that even gulf Arabs who are themselves Semitic get called Anti-Semitic just because many of them aren't fond of the Israelites. In fact I even find it odd that the word Anti-Semitic is usually taken to only mean Anti-Jewish even though there are so many Semitic people around.

Anyway leaving that aside I just want to say that even though the early Muslim Arabs did fight with the Jews, it does not make them Anti-Semitic. They fought them because they had violated a treaty by siding with the Meccans, not because they were Anti-Semitic or Anti-Jewish or whatever.

JEW hate as we know today was a european colonial export to their vassals in ME for building their own case and rallying the support. Once you start preaching hate - it takes very little for the effect to spill over. It is like a chain reaction. A student of hate only needs to pick on petty differences to adapt his learning..soon we have become infested with hate on every front. One only needs to stir a pot of Jewish conspiracy to rally the opponents in his favor..

 

[Desert Fox]

Why is it that each and everyone one of you has got a clouded or misunderstood idea of what Unity means? Why would Unity mean following them?
You don't blindly follow your brother, do you? You respect him and tolerate his views, correct him if he's wrong, no poinlessly gun their views, race, colour, tribe etc. and you tyr to protect him and stand up for justice...
And by the way, most Arabs don't hate Pakistanis or non-Arabs as you're trying to imply. You've never met the common Arab on an Arabian steet somewhere in Arabistan or elsewhere, have you? You're probably taking some Pan-Arab/Racist goons and holding their views as being the majorities view...don't do that...

And no; Unity also doesn't mean you leave your own language/culture/history behind, and dismantle your own country to join theirs, as many are implying. But it certainly does mean that you don't just bash their language/culture or history or mock their weaknesses or shortcomings.

Also, Unity means you don't backstab that brother for your own political gains or jealousy

Most of what you said applies to the Arabs (eg tolerating others views, accepting your short comings, being just in ones judgment). And when have i bashed Arabs on this thread?? When have i bashed their history? In fact one cannot even criticize them, they take criticism as "Arab bashing".

And speaking of backstabbing for political gains, i'm sure you are aware of what happened to the Ottomans, Hint: Lawrence of Arabia.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

JEW hate as we know today was a european colonial export to their vassals in ME for building their own case and rallying the support. Once you start preaching hate - it takes very little for the effect to spill over. It is like a chain reaction. A student of hate only needs to pick on petty differences to adapt his learning..soon we have become infested with hate on every front. One only needs to stir a pot of Jewish conspiracy to rally the opponents in his favor..

It's quite clear that even a minor difference can be magnified to enormous proportions by anyone that propagates hatred for others. The problem that we need to deal with now is somehow manage to reduce the level of hatred people have in our land not only for the Jews but for any other person simply on the basis of insignificant or minor differences.

As far as I know, the primary reason why some European nations despised the Jews was because of Christianity. They blamed the Jews for the crucifixion of Prophet Jesus (PBUH). Of course Muslims know that Prophet Jesus (PBUH) was never crucified.

Referring to the Muslim world, in my opinion hatred of the Jews stems from the creation of Israel & its conflict with Palestine. The other reason is that many Muslims believe in conspiracy theories regarding Jews secretly attempting to destroy other races & religions & declaring themselves ruler supreme on earth.

I do want to add that I harbor no hatred for any race or nation on earth regardless of their religion or any past conflicts or hardships our ancestors may have inflicted on each other. I only hate those who hate me.

 

[somebozo]

As far as I know, the primary reason why some European nations despised the Jews was because of Christianity. They blamed the Jews for the crucifixion of Prophet Jesus (PBUH). Of course Muslims know that Prophet Jesus (PBUH) was never crucified.

The Chritian clergy took Europe into recurring wars and total extinction of knowledge..the so called dark ages..much like what is happening to Muslims of today...This bought an obvious social divide..the Jews continue to prosper as bankers, scientist, intellectuals, eyc while much of the Christendom was reduced to backward sh_t hole..Think of all Taliban and AQ took Afghanistan back into stone age. The clergy answer to their own backwardness and failure was conspiracy theories against the Jews...Much like what Arabs do to cover their incompetent despots...

Referring to the Muslim world, in my opinion hatred of the Jews stems from the creation of Israel & its conflict with Palestine. The other reason is that many Muslims believe in conspiracy theories regarding Jews secretly attempting to destroy other races & religions & declaring themselves ruler supreme on earth.

In the begining there was no Israel and the Jews continue to settle in the so called Palestine. The hatred was exported during the early 40's by European colonials to their Arab vassals - the forerunner being the Hashmite which back then ruled Transjordan, Iraq, Syria and Hejaz and were prime contestant of power against the Ottomans.. The key motivation of corrupt hashmites was power and land and what threw spanner in their plans was the rise of Al Sauds in the Nejd..

Initially there was no demand for two state solution - but they became inevitable as Arab extremism caused massive loss of life and property in continued riots around Jerusalem.

I do want to add that I harbor no hatred for any race or nation on earth regardless of their religion or any past conflicts or hardships our ancestors may have inflicted on each other. I only hate those who hate me.

Hate is never the answer...

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

The Chritian clergy took Europe into recurring wars and total extinction of knowledge..the so called dark ages..much like what is happening to Muslims of today...This bought an obvious social divide..the Jews continue to prosper as bankers, scientist, intellectuals, eyc while much of the Christendom was reduced to backward sh_t hole..Think of all Taliban and AQ took Afghanistan back into stone age. The clergy answer to their own backwardness and failure was conspiracy theories against the Jews...Much like what Arabs do to cover their incompetent despots...

I agree, the Catholic church was to blame for Europe being sent in to the dark ages & most of the progress made by the Greco-Roman civilizations was essentially forgotten or destroyed. The same problem faces the Muslim world today especially Pakistan, there is a dire need for good, sensible, & educated religious scholars. However the mentality of the society has to be changed as well, during the Italian renaissance people began to argue over & question the teachings of the Church. In countries like Pakistan, people aren't taught to question or thick critically, instead they are taught to follow others like sheep following a shepherd.

In the begining there was no Israel and the Jews continue to settle in the so called Palestine. The hatred was exported during the early 40's by European colonials to their Arab vassals - the forerunner being the Hashmite which back then ruled Transjordan, Iraq, Syria and Hejaz and were prime contestant of power against the Ottomans.. The key motivation of corrupt hashmites was power and land and what threw spanner in their plans was the rise of Al Sauds in the Nejd..

Initially there was no demand for two state solution - but they became inevitable as Arab extremism caused massive loss of life and property in continued riots around Jerusalem.

The Hashemites desire for power came primarily from Arab nationalism, they wanted to revive the golden age of Arab civilization. However in the process of doing so they not only betrayed the Ottoman Caliphate, but ended up getting betrayed by Britain as well. Personally I think it was a good thing that the House of Saud conquered Arabia.

Hate is never the answer...

I agree, like I said before I don't hate anyone except those who hate me.

 

[somebozo]

I agree, the Catholic church was to blame for Europe being sent in to the dark ages & most of the progress made by the Greco-Roman civilizations was essentially forgotten or destroyed. The same problem faces the Muslim world today especially Pakistan, there is a dire need for good, sensible, & educated religious scholars. However the mentality of the society has to be changed as well, during the Italian renaissance people began to argue over & question the teachings of the Church. In countries like Pakistan, people aren't taught to question or thick critically, instead they are taught to follow others like sheep following a shepherd.

This is what I like to refer as clergy Imperlaism be is Najdi, Jamati, Deobandi, what ever. . Since the influx of foreign money and free hand to several religious charities - religious extremism and piety has become synonymous in improvements of living standards. And that is a very hard to break image..Until we don't set out house in order we cant blame the other...

The point is many of these clergy men are violating the basic principles of the same Islam they claim to preace when they demand to followers to shun all modern education, sciences, technology, lock the women in closets and should be seen with a prayer bead 24/7.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

This is what I like to refer as clergy Imperlaism. . Since the influx of foreign money and free hand to several religious charities - religious extremism and piety has become synonymous in improvements of living standards. And that is a very hard to break image..Until we don't set out house in order we cant blame the other...

I agree, but what can be the solution to this problem? The steps I would take would be firstly, to have strict control over the religious clergy like in Saudi Arabia. We need to monitor the flow of money to these organizations at all times, & monitor the teachings of these scholars in religious schools.

There are many more steps that can be taken, it will take too long for me to list them here. Although I seriously recommend that a change in culture be initiated. We need to get people to question their beliefs, teach them that they are free to follow their own paths. They must learn to think critically while at the same time tolerate other people's views.

The point is many of these clergy men are violating the basic principles of the same Islam they claim to preace when they demand to followers to shun all modern education, sciences, technology, lock the women in closets and should be seen with a prayer bead 24/7.

Religious scholars use these tactics to maintain control & influence over the morons that follow them. The government should encourage people to learn about Islam on their own & provide them with verified & factual sources to learn Islam from. The problem is that any remedy to this issue is extremely time consuming & happens to be quite costly. In the short term I suggest giving these fake so-called scholars a good public lashing while simultaneously denouncing their evil ways, that should aid in getting the message across to people that their scholars were misleading them.