Pakistan's Education system | Reforms & Upgrades.

[SekrutYakhni]

Originally posted by Araz.

"I am not sure whether a radical change in the system of education is required. Text and content wise we are better than the western systems that we so envy. However independant thinking needs to be inculcated and for that the teachers need to be trained.Every where in the world there are days set aside for teaching the trainers. Ever see that in Pakistan.
Look I dont want to digress from the topic at hand. Please feel free to open a new thread and discuss the education needs separately. We can then shift the mails from this thread and continue there."
Araz



I am a bit confused here. Which 'text and content' are you talking about? There are three parallel systems running in the glorious country. i.e. Imported one, local and Madrassa type. Now the first one, imported, you cannot say that it is better than the west because it is already imported from there. Local (Matriculation system) is not better than the west; therefore, individuals prefer to do O and A levels. Madrassa system is not even at par with the local education system let alone the western system. You know why I emphasized more on changing the education system at grass root level? Majority of our people cannot go to schools like LGS etc so they end up going to government schools. Should I tell you the condition of government schools? So, we have to think for the majority. Introduce new and effective system in government schools. Take the example of India, only one uniformed system. We should uplift our existing system so we don't have to import our education system. Wasn't it a failure when we introduced a western system? For me it was because it shows that we failed to develop a local system. Open community schools--Social justice! It is the right of poor people to get same level of education as rich do! Yaar, jis mulk mien 9 and 10 ka aik year alag exams aur next year aik sath exams hoon, what do you expect from that education system? A bit too much experiments, eh!

So, if we are able to give a good education to our kids at junior level, they will automatically thrive in universities. If universities will get a 'lot' of thinkers rather than ratu baz, universities will further flourish the abilities of young brats.

Defence budget has increased significantly, whereas, the education budget is at all time low--

 

[nightcrawler]

The biggest problem plaguing our system is the differentiation b/w Knowledge & Information; even teachers at univ levels ignore this primary fact

 

[SekrutYakhni]

The biggest problem plaguing our system is the differentiation b/w Knowledge & Information; even teachers at univ levels ignore this primary fact

We are not talking about teachers. First, let us debate on the education system than we will talk about teachers and students because they are the product of that system!

 

[SQ8]

The biggest problem plaguing our system is the differentiation b/w Knowledge & Information; even teachers at univ levels ignore this primary fact

Who are university teachers?
Seniors are actually retired engineers with PhD's.. only one in five are really established, polished teachers.. the others have a lot of knowledge but no idea how to pass it on.
Others are at maximum masters level .. some with experience in the field.. which are good only if they can impart knowledge..
others are just bachelors themselves who spent a few years as lab engineers before progressing to teachers.
Papers are published left and right by these people BUt WHERE I ask is the implementation.. the application?

Any education system where the student is taught lies about history.. (Islamic history deals with Tipu sultan to Ayub Khan). The teachers are there to earn money without knowing their jobs, those that hire them dont know their jobs. Those that write the books are still stuck in the 1930's. And most of all, what is taught never shows how that principle works in real life.
Why blame O and A levels when the official system (already divided into multiple paralell and sometimes conflicting boards) cannot impart a quality syllabus.. where there is gap others will fill it. It is due to the O and A level system that many brilliant kids have excelled, and due our system that many brilliant kids have not.
The Madressas are for those illiterate people who would bow before the mullah if need be since they think his command of the Quran is supreme. And for others it is the only system possible. And let me give u a first hand account of the so called premier madressah in Peshawar situated right in front of the Corps house. Beatings, curses, fithy conditions topped with sodomy is the norm in that place.
Run by supposedly a very moderate and popular cleric.
To change anything..
scrap the syllabus and put actual qualified people to make it, not cronies or sycophants.
Start a teachers training program, have regular inspection, SHOOT teachers that impart incorrect knowledge,beat kids, or under-perform..because they are responsible for the future of the country..literally. And convert all madressas to schools, make normal subjects mandatory before the Quran is taught with translation... and blow up the others who resist.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Who are university teachers?
Seniors are actually retired engineers with PhD's.. only one in five are really established, polished teachers.. the others have a lot of knowledge but no idea how to pass it on.
Others are at maximum masters level .. some with experience in the field.. which are good only if they can impart knowledge..
others are just bachelors themselves who spent a few years as lab engineers before progressing to teachers.
Papers are published left and right by these people BUt WHERE I ask is the implementation.. the application?

I will dedicate my self to this thread only; this is way more important.

Santro, Lets try to take this as a system,
talking about individual components from the beginning will make it over complex.

My suggestion is to discuss the education SYSTEM as such, SYSTEM with input a student and output a scholar.
once we establish the design requirements, we will talk about components one by one and lastly try to culminate this in a set of suggestions.

What does the group say ? MODS can this be made into sticky ?
we can try to push this to HEC and MoE.

 

[SQ8]

I will dedicate my self to this thread only; this is way more important.

Santro, Lets try to take this as a system,
talking about individual components from the beginning will make it over complex.

My suggestion is to discuss the education SYSTEM as such, SYSTEM with input a student and output a scholar.
once we establish the design requirements, we will talk about components one by one and lastly try to culminate this in a set of suggestions.

What does the group say ? MODS can this be made into sticky ?
we can try to push this to HEC and MoE.

Been done a lot of times, what you will notice after your attempt is a very formal letter by those currently in charge of the HEC outlining all that they have done and will be doing and telling you not to worry your head about it.
Its Pakistani thinking that needs changing, and our collective stance as a nation. People keep crying about democracy; "democracy ensures that you will be governed no better than what you deserve".. I would extend that to "you will be governed, or taught, or fed, or armed with no better than what you deserve".

The System right now, is a very straight forward messed up sinusoidal system where the output rarely ever matches the input.
And with little or no feedback into the loop.. its going to stay that way.
Our suggestion is feedback, but unfortunately, there is no provision in the current system to take it in.
I am accused of being negative by most around me.. but I apologize, years of watching my own countrymen cut each other up, without realizing the good and the potential withing them.. made me so.

 

[nightcrawler]

We are not talking about teachers. First, let us debate on the education system than we will talk about teachers and students because they are the product of that system!

You misunderstood me!!
Just look at the books of Punjab text book so much information

• Who did this
• When did this happen
• what was his name
  
  
  

I mean so many what;who;when but very minimum WHY

This I am talking about Information vs Knowledge
In primary education one must stress on why; to simulate curiosity . The purpose of education must not be to prepare a student for a KON BANE GA CRORPATI

 

[Sinnerman108]

yes Santro, we have all been through those cycles of frustration back home;

lets just say, I may be able to pull some strings here and there

and some people I know can help.

mind you, even if there was no light at the end of the tunnel, doesn't imply we don't work.

 

[sparklingway]

Reading "Shaping a Nation, an Examination of Education in Pakistan" these days. Will post my review and a number of snippets by the next week. Enlightening since the authors are some great academics.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Who are university teachers?
Seniors are actually retired engineers with PhD's.. only one in five are really established, polished teachers.. the others have a lot of knowledge but no idea how to pass it on.
Others are at maximum masters level .. some with experience in the field.. which are good only if they can impart knowledge..
others are just bachelors themselves who spent a few years as lab engineers before progressing to teachers.
Papers are published left and right by these people BUt WHERE I ask is the implementation.. the application?

Any education system where the student is taught lies about history.. (Islamic history deals with Tipu sultan to Ayub Khan). The teachers are there to earn money without knowing their jobs, those that hire them dont know their jobs. Those that write the books are still stuck in the 1930's. And most of all, what is taught never shows how that principle works in real life.
Why blame O and A levels when the official system (already divided into multiple paralell and sometimes conflicting boards) cannot impart a quality syllabus.. where there is gap others will fill it. It is due to the O and A level system that many brilliant kids have excelled, and due our system that many brilliant kids have not.
The Madressas are for those illiterate people who would bow before the mullah if need be since they think his command of the Quran is supreme. And for others it is the only system possible. And let me give u a first hand account of the so called premier madressah in Peshawar situated right in front of the Corps house. Beatings, curses, fithy conditions topped with sodomy is the norm in that place.
Run by supposedly a very moderate and popular cleric.
To change anything..
scrap the syllabus and put actual qualified people to make it, not cronies or sycophants.
Start a teachers training program, have regular inspection, SHOOT teachers that impart incorrect knowledge,beat kids, or under-perform..because they are responsible for the future of the country..literally. And convert all madressas to schools, make normal subjects mandatory before the Quran is taught with translation... and blow up the others who resist.

"The Madressas are for those illiterate people who would bow before the mullah if need be since they think his command of the Quran is supreme."

Santro, we should not say anyone illiterate because we did not provide enough facilities to madrassa going students. Primary education should be compulsory and the gov should force individuals to join school. We have to take actions sooner than later if we want to avoid another generation of uneducated people.
Other than that, I liked your post!

"scrap the syllabus and put actual qualified people to make it, not cronies or sycophants.
Start a teachers training program, have regular inspection, SHOOT teachers that impart incorrect knowledge,beat kids, or under-perform..because they are responsible for the future of the country..literally."





---------- Post added at 05:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 AM ----------

Reading "Shaping a Nation, an Examination of Education in Pakistan" these days. Will post my review and a number of snippets by the next week. Enlightening since the authors are some great academics.

Appreciate your help sparklingview!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Gentlemen---thanks for starting this thread that I happened to walk into blind folded.

Here is a recommendations----this thread needs to be in a very visible place---our purpose should be to expose as many pakistanis to this thread---would it be possible to place this thread in a place with the most visibility---the place that everyone wants to visit.

That is the the sticky portion of the air force thread---. Thankyou

 

[Pride]

I think I am entitled to my opinion here because we have some what similar education system.
First thing as per my recommendation is to close down such parallel education system which is Madarsa system. While I still suggest there should be Arabic/Persian language course in main stream of education to know the route. Madarsa system needs to have only that much of people who are required to perform religious rituals like Maulvis and Qazis. They are also important for our social system.

Second point as a reform is to have "Right of Education" for all which needs to be enforced with support of Law and normal people. This will ensure that childrens who are forced to do "child labour" in India/Pakistan will not be trapped and even if they have to do such work there should be some way to have education for them.

Third reformation stage could be for an average class to have free education or subisdy on that education. The money could be collected through 'Education cess' from corporates.

Fourth reform needs to rectify current education system in higher education. Stop if there are any kind of student politics are there. Extend the university exchange programs to call world renowned professors/ professionals for performing guest lectures as well as increase students exchange programs for few semesters. Corporates needs to provide more scholarships to those students who studies outside but come back to country after completing education to share the knowledge with fellow citizens.

Apart from this all government things, we can also be helpful for spreading the eductation as in my previous organisation, We used to teach our fourth grade employees' kids by devoting one hour after our professional life.

 

[ajpirzada]

we dont need to close anything. rather we should focus our energies in improving our local system. once it attains a level better than other parallel systems, people will themselves start switching. there is no point in forcing people to ride an inefficient train.

the only question we should be looking at is how to improve our local schooling system.

there is a very fundamental issue attached to this. fees in public schools is quite low making it harder to offer gud packages to teachers. end result is u get poor teachers against low wages. but when u will increase the fees then it will get hard for poor to send their children to school although ull end up getting gud quality teachers.

a complex system can be come up with. charging people w.r.t. their earnings but that will be hard to implement in a country lik pakistan and might also lead to discrimination between students within a school.

in the end u get an institutional network with low fee structure and poor quality teaching relying completely on government funding. now with many other problems at hand, education automatically takes a back seat. its quite evident that investing in education heavily is not a thing for politicians to do who look for cashing votes

 

[Pride]

we dont need to close anything. rather we should focus our energies in improving our local system. once it attains a level better than other parallel systems, people will themselves start switching. there is no point in forcing people to ride an inefficient train.

the only question we should be looking at is how to improve our local schooling system.

there is a very fundamental issue attached to this. fees in public schools is quite low making it harder to offer gud packages to teachers. end result is u get poor teachers against low wages. but when u will increase the fees then it will get hard for poor to send their children to school although ull end up getting gud quality teachers.

a complex system can be come up with. charging people w.r.t. their earnings but that will be hard to implement in a country lik pakistan and might also lead to discrimination between students within a school.

in the end u get an institutional network with low fee structure and poor quality teaching relying completely on government funding. now with many other problems at hand, education automatically takes a back seat. its quite evident that investing in education heavily is not a thing for politicians to do who look for cashing votes

ajpirzada, I think you were replying my first point. Hence I come up with explanation. AFAIK, Madarsa study is educational system only focused focused for languages and religions somewhat similar to Sanskrit vishvavidyalaya in India. Very few such schools carry studies of all subjects including History, science, maths etc.

If you wont stop such parallel system in its existence (except for few as I mentioned). Jamaati people will always try to influence others (specially poor) for such schools. I have seen this personally in my area while there were so many good schools, Jamaat comes to poor Muslim people's home and influence poors to study.

 

[ajpirzada]

ajpirzada, I think you were replying my first point. Hence I come up with explanation. AFAIK, Madarsa study is educational system only focused focused for languages and religions somewhat similar to Sanskrit vishvavidyalaya in India. Very few such schools carry studies of all subjects including History, science, maths etc.

If you wont stop such parallel system in its existence (except for few as I mentioned). Jamaati people will always try to influence others (specially poor) for such schools. I have seen this personally in my area while there were so many good schools, Jamaat comes to poor Muslim people's home and influence poors to study.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/64481-busting-pakistans-madrassa-myth.html

not many people go to madrassa system and even those who do are not necessary involved in terrorist activities. there are only few ideological madrassas which need to be looked into. many of those who are involved in radical activities are those who were unemployed with no social prospects. they were given both sense of power and monetary benefit which lured them into such activities.

many of those who send their children to typical madrassa are those who cannot afford to sustain their children. madrassa, however, not only provides some sort of education but also provides food and shelter.

instead of focusing on closing down XYZ, we should focus towards improving our existing system through not only efficient utlization of resources but also progressive reforms.