Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

[Reddawn]

It doesn’t have a fully automatic loading system (semi-automatic) and it lacks proper remote operating capabilities as PLA doesn’t consider them necessary for its doctrine. The other systems PA was testing had them and PA did seem to be wanting both of them. However in the basic attributes such as the Range, accuracy and mobility of the system, it is excellent. Even better than the others at times due to its lighter weight, it’s also cheaper due to the lack of the Aforementioned capabilities. It’ll be interesting to see if PA added them as it did with the VT-4 or bought the stock system.

At the time of the first trials however VT-4 hadn’t been inducted and Pantsir was still on the cards, now with the Chinese MBT in service and the Chinese SHORAD likely to come, it makes a lot more sense to buy the SH-15 due to its interoperability with the other systems. Plus the cheaper cost will mean we can get more of them.

Either way, it will be a good upgrade to PAs artillery capabilities if purchased, and if rumors are to be believed, there’s another system from the west coming too, The point about “remote operation capabilities” is important in that regard. The fully-automatic loader can be overlooked given how much bulkier it can make these guns.

Which system from the West is rumoured to be coming?

 

[vi-va]

It doesn’t have a fully automatic loading system (semi-automatic) and it lacks proper remote operating capabilities as PLA doesn’t consider them necessary for its doctrine. The other systems PA was testing had them and PA did seem to be wanting both of them. However in the basic attributes such as the Range, accuracy and mobility of the system, it is excellent. Even better than the others at times due to its lighter weight, it’s also cheaper due to the lack of the Aforementioned capabilities. It’ll be interesting to see if PA added them as it did with the VT-4 or bought the stock system.

At the time of the first trials however VT-4 hadn’t been inducted and Pantsir was still on the cards, now with the Chinese MBT in service and the Chinese SHORAD likely to come, it makes a lot more sense to buy the SH-15 due to its interoperability with the other systems. Plus the cheaper cost will mean we can get more of them.

Either way, it will be a good upgrade to PAs artillery capabilities if purchased, and if rumors are to be believed, there’s another system from the west coming too, The point about “remote operation capabilities” is important in that regard. The fully-automatic loader can be overlooked given how much bulkier it can make these guns.

Agree.

1. There isn't any 155mm self-propelled howitzers other than PCL181 has weight of less than 25 tons on the market.
2. Wheeled self-propelled howitzers normally can't beat K-9 Thunder or Panzerhaubitze 2000 on accuracy. What I heard that PLA requires no accuracy compromise. PCL181 has same accuracy of PLZ-05
3. SP with autoloader is much more expensive, and harder to maintain. PCL181 is semi-auto, the loading height is much lower than other wheeled SP on the market. Loading speed is very good.
4. Wheeled SP is designed for mass production with much less cost per unit. Otherwise, it will fail like ARCHER Artillery System which cost 4.5 millions USD per unit. Only Indian will buy it with tons of kickbacks.

 

[Raja Porus]

From having the finest of American equipment in the 60s to having the finest of chinese today; but have our filed commanders learnt to employ them?

 

[PanzerKiel]

From having the finest of American equipment in the 60s to having the finest of chinese today; but have our filed commanders learnt to employ them?

Not sure about that.... Why don't you join and find out yourself?

 

[PanzerKiel]

From having the finest of American equipment in the 60s to having the finest of chinese today; but have our filed commanders learnt to employ them?

Of course they don't know yet how to employ these. What happened was they just brought all these artillery pieces off the self without taking into account the training of manpower, maintainence base requirements, phasing out of old guns...... Dumb asses, aren't they.... Gosh..... No doubt we have already lost half of our country half a century before.... With us losing soldiers every day, it sure is a pseudo army we are talking about....

And then our head is field marshal Admiral aladeen.... All our field commanders are like him....

 

[Raja Porus]

And then our head is field marshal Admiral aladeen.

No doubt

 

[siegecrossbow]

First VT-4, then HQ-9, now SH-15. I’m sensing a strategic message here.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Which system from the West is rumoured to be coming?

I tend not to give into rumors, so I won’t look into it or mention it until I can be more sure of it. Let’s wait a bit, we should hear sooner or later.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Agree.

1. There isn't any 155mm self-propelled howitzers other than PCL181 has weight of less than 25 tons on the market.
2. Wheeled self-propelled howitzers normally can't beat K-9 Thunder or Panzerhaubitze 2000 on accuracy. What I heard that PLA requires no accuracy compromise. PCL181 has same accuracy of PLZ-05
3. SP with autoloader is much more expensive, and harder to maintain. PCL181 is semi-auto, the loading height is much lower than other wheeled SP on the market. Loading speed is very good.
4. Wheeled SP is designed for mass production with much less cost per unit. Otherwise, it will fail like ARCHER Artillery System which cost 4.5 millions USD per unit. Only Indian will buy it with tons of kickbacks.

PZH-2000 is an excellent system as well, my personal gripes are only with systems based on the M109 platform. Meaning the K-9, the T-155 and the M109A6.

They have poor designs from the ground up. Back when PA was purchasing hundreds of M109A2s and A5s the decision made sense given the reliance on American tech and that there were less of these new artillery guns on the market. They were still good guns then and are decent now especially given their large numbers, but Nowadays to me it makes little sense to purchase the systems based on those old designs as the basic issues with them cannot be fixed, the biggest being the ROF. Russian Cold War SP artillery can fire several times faster than the M109A5 and A6 at little accuracy cost and similar ranges. That’s why US is also working on its Next-Gen SP artillery. Germany, Scandinavian countries, France, Italy, UK, all of them retired the M109 for local artillery guns when possible.

Maybe that is what kept PA away from turkish T-155 as well. The range in these guns were very limited too until very recently, and that new ammo longer range ammo is only in American service so far. They have also started working on ramjet rounds to push the ranges upto 150KM. Chinese RAP rounds from 54 calibre PLZ-05 (maybe SH-15 can fire them too?) are already certified for 100KM ranges as well.

Regardless, the guns in their basic attributes are as good as any other, accuracy, range, mobility. The lack of a full auto-loader is what hampers remote firing capabilities as well, along with the inability to receive firing data remotely, however they do have data-links for other forms of data communication. When working in tandem with other Chinese systems, these will work great. It is interesting to see PA go for a wheeled design but it makes sense given the nearly 500 M109A5 systems are still relevant and don’t need replacing.

 

[vi-va]

PZH-2000 is an excellent system as well, my personal gripes are only with systems based on the M109 platform. Meaning the K-9, the T-155 and the M109A6.

They have poor designs from the ground up. Back when PA was purchasing hundreds of M109A2s and A5s the decision made sense given the reliance on American tech and that there were less of these new artillery guns on the market. They were still good guns then and are decent now especially given their large numbers, but Nowadays to me it makes little sense to purchase the systems based on those old designs as the basic issues with them cannot be fixed, the biggest being the ROF. Russian Cold War SP artillery can fire several times faster than the M109A5 and A6 at little accuracy cost and similar ranges. That’s why US is also working on its Next-Gen SP artillery. Germany, Scandinavian countries, France, Italy, UK, all of them retired the M109 for local artillery guns when possible.

Maybe that is what kept PA away from turkish T-155 as well. The range in these guns were very limited too until very recently, and that new ammo longer range ammo is only in American service so far. They have also started working on ramjet rounds to push the ranges upto 150KM. Chinese RAP rounds from 54 calibre PLZ-05 (maybe SH-15 can fire them too?) are already certified for 100KM ranges as well.

Regardless, the guns in their basic attributes are as good as any other, accuracy, range, mobility. The lack of a full auto-loader is what hampers remote firing capabilities as well, along with the inability to receive firing data remotely, however they do have data-links for other forms of data communication. When working in tandem with other Chinese systems, these will work great. It is interesting to see PA go for a wheeled design but it makes sense given the nearly 500 M109A5 systems are still relevant and don’t need replacing.

France CAESAR

See the height of gun, and semi-autoloader.

See how high it is

PLA & PA PCL181, the soldiers are standing on the ground, see the height of the gun, how low it is

The gun height is almost as low as the towed gun. No other wheeled SP can do it.

PLA next generation armored SP. Larger, higher rate of fire

 

[Zarvan]

Of course they don't know yet how to employ these. What happened was they just brought all these artillery pieces off the self without taking into account the training of manpower, maintainence base requirements, phasing out of old guns...... Dumb asses, aren't they.... Gosh..... No doubt we have already lost half of our country half a century before.... With us losing soldiers every day, it sure is a pseudo army we are talking about....

And then our head is field marshal Admiral aladeen.... All our field commanders are like him.... View attachment 786802

Sir just ignoring would be great policy. Sir this news is out so can you confirm or reject this news. I mean the news of SH 15 getting inducting.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Sir just ignoring would be great policy. Sir this news is out so can you confirm or reject this news. I mean the news of SH 15 getting inducting.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Sir just ignoring would be great policy. Sir this news is out so can you confirm or reject this news. I mean the news of SH 15 getting inducting.

Whatever i tell, i dont have the desired proof to back it up, reputations generally dont matter here anymore... so lets keep it that way.

 

[Blacklight]

Whatever i tell, i dont have the desired proof to back it up, reputations generally dont matter here anymore... so lets keep it that way.

Not saying you should disclose anything you are not comfortable with, but lot of people on this forum respect you from the bottom of their hearts. For those respectable people, no proof is required, even a hint is more than enough.

 

[Zarvan]

Not saying you should disclose anything you are not comfortable with, but lot of people on this forum respect you from the bottom of their hearts. For those respectable people, no proof is required, even a hint is more than enough.

Sir has made a great point. @PanzerKiel Although if it can raise problems for you then please don't Sir.