Featured Pakistani Navy confirms Brazilian jetliner will replace Orion patrol aircraft

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

10 OR 15 Jets ? Lot of ocean to cover

 

[krash]

they are 20 years old (were refursbhsihed to begin with) and will be 30 years old by the time the process is completed..as the process of sea sultan will take 10+ years

The production of the P-3 Orions stopped in 1990. The newest ones are already more than 30 years old. However, that is not how aircraft age works. Most of our airframes spent a fair bit of their life in storage. Also, 30 years is 'middle age' for these aircraft. There are P-3s in other air forces which are more than half a century old. The Canadian examples have been in continuous service since 1980. Being refurbished is a good thing, it means longer life and newer sub-systems.


159505 (5623) - Built in 75, stored 96, flew from 2007 till 2010, then flying again after upgrades since 2013.

159508 (5626) - Built in 75, stored 96, flying again since 2012.

159511 (5629) - Built in 75, stored in95, flying again since 2010.

159890 (5641) - Built in 76, stored in 95,flying again since 2012.

160289 (5652) - Built in 77, stored in 97, flying again since 2012.

164468 (5826) - Built in 90, stored till 96 but only entered service in 99, stored again in 99, flying again since 2006. This one is virtually 16 years old.

https://www.p3orion.nl/ALHR.pdf

We have C-130s that have been flying since before the 65 war.

 

[Akh1112]

10 OR 15 Jets ? Lot of ocean to cover

Pakistan has a small coastline, anyway:

its:
4-5 ATR-72MPA
10 Sea Sultan

When will be first sea Sultan is planned for induction... Any guess

give it 2-3 years.

 

[ziaulislam]

The production of the P-3 Orions stopped in 1990. The newest ones are already more than 30 years old. However, that is not how aircraft age works. Most of our airframes spent a fair bit of their life stored at AMARC. Also, 30 years is nothing for these aircraft. There are P-3s in other air forces which are more than half a century old. The Canadian examples have been in service since 1980. Being refurbished is a good thing, means longer life and newer systems. The first three were built brand new for us and then stored due to the embargo.

Most of our F-16s are older than these aircraft. We have C-130s that have been flying since before the 65 war.

the technology is becoming obsolete with no pathway for upgradation and they are uncomfortable and low service ceiling and crusie speed..
having said that P3 will operate well into 2030s..i doubt PN will get its 10 sea sultan ready by 2035

 

[krash]

the technology is becoming obsolete with no pathway for upgradation and they are uncomfortable and low service ceiling and crusie speed..

They were upgraded less than ten years ago.

I don't understand what the cruise speed, service ceiling, and comfortability have to do with a maritime patrol aircraft's effectiveness.

 

[Blacklight]

They were upgraded less than ten years ago.

I don't know what the cruise speed, service ceiling, and comfortability have to do with a maritime patrol aircraft's effectiveness.

Operator fatigue

 

[krash]

Operator fatigue

Wouldn't upgrading the cabin be more cost effective?

 

[Tipu7]

P-3C is a propeller aircraft. It's flight characteristics (cruise speed, altitude) are naturally inferior than a jet powered aircraft.

Yes, P-3C played a important role (along side Z-9C) to corner and surface INS Kalvari (most advance sub in IN arsenal) in recent past, but it's technology is fastly lagging behind interms of evolving concepts within Pakistan Navy (NCW etc etc). In fact, RAS-72 are far more technologically advance than P-3C. And Sea Sultan will be a 'evolved' RAS-72 combined with all sort of advantages related to its air frame and jet engine ... Thus, the switch, from Orion to Sea Sultan, is understandable. (though it will complete around 2030)

 

[Blacklight]

Wouldn't upgrading the cabin be more cost effective?

In the subcontinent, operator fatigue is sadly more or less not recognized.
Insaan aur Ghada = same

The new platforms brings operator comfort already built in, not because it is required.

Luckily, someone realized that switching platforms brings a lot to the table, rather than just a new air frame.

The biggest issue with the PC-3's is that there is no space left to upgrade anything. With a new platform, you can customize it to your requirement, keeping two basic things in mind, Surveillance, and Offensive Capability.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that when you own subsystems, Upgrades are much faster, upgrades can sometimes be just simple software upgrades, which keeps your assets in top shape.

 

[Akh1112]

Operator fatigue

erm, ASW missions will typically last a long time, alongside this, speed is rather irrelevant except from when going from A-B, when on a hunt, you will fly in a holding pattern above your area of interest, you are chasing something that travels at less than 20kts, not something at 200kts, infact, when P3s are on station, engine 1 is turned off to extend loiter time.

 

[Blacklight]

erm, ASW missions will typically last a long time, alongside this, speed is rather irrelevant except from when going from A-B, when on a hunt, you will fly in a holding pattern above your area of interest, you are chasing something that travels at less than 20kts, not something at 200kts, infact, when P3s are on station, engine 1 is turned off to extend loiter time.

Sir, it is the other way around, 3 engines are turned off. 1 remains active.

*Edit: 3 engines can be turned of, weather permitting.
The Kiwis set a record of 21+hrs on patrol. I think.

 

[Gripen9]

In the subcontinent, operator fatigue is sadly more or less not recognized.
Insaan aur Ghada = same

The new platforms brings operator comfort already built in, not because it is required.

Luckily, someone realized that switching platforms brings a lot to the table, rather than just a new air frame.

The biggest issue with the PC-3's is that there is no space left to upgrade anything. With a new platform, you can customize it to your requirement, keeping two basic things in mind, Surveillance, and Offensive Capability.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that when you own subsystems, Upgrades are much faster, upgrades can sometimes be just simple software upgrades, which keeps your assets in top shape.

One of the P3 we lost was classified as CFIT due to operator fatigue. It was their 3rd continous sortie during war games.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This is a 10 year replacement program. One new plane every year, similar to the ATR. I just hope that they create domestic capacity for modification and integration.

It'll depend on the extent of the modifications. If it's limited to attaching hardpoints and integrating sub-systems (i.e., the likeliest scenario, but the most conservative), then I think we probably could acquire the know-how and carry it out at PAC. However, if it involves cutting parts of the airframe (like the P8 program), then I can see that getting really complex and high-cost for us to do alone in Pakistan.

IMHO I'd rather we do the conservative option, even if it means the equivalent capability of 10 comes through 12-14 planes (due to decreased torpedo payload, for example). I'd also like to see us get an AEW&C variant. Imagine the Erieye-ER plus a GMTI/SAR on this aircraft. Plenty of room onboard for HMIs to cover air and surface C4ISR.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Why are we replacing the Orions? They are still relatively new.

IMO this is a long term plan. With all the stuff PN is buying...I doubt it can dish out the money for the integration/testing of the first Sea Sultan...and then once successful acquire the remaining numbers all in one go. It will probably be incremental over years.

 

[Akh1112]

It'll depend on the extent of the modifications. If it's limited to attaching hardpoints and integrating sub-systems (i.e., the likeliest scenario, but the most conservative), then I think we probably could acquire the know-how and carry it out at PAC. However, if it involves cutting parts of the airframe (like the P8 program), then I can see that getting really complex and high-cost for us to do alone in Pakistan.

IMHO I'd rather we do the conservative option, even if it means the equivalent capability of 10 comes through 12-14 planes (due to decreased torpedo payload, for example). I'd also like to see us get an AEW&C variant. Imagine the Erieye-ER plus a GMTI/SAR on this aircraft. Plenty of room onboard for HMIs to cover air and surface C4ISR.

Realistically, you WILL need to chop the airframe, there is no other way about it when it comes to MPA conversion. The ATR's got the chop, you're going to need somewhere to drop sonobouys out of. Cant use a podded solution due to limited payload, IWB is something that could be avoided though, however, it could be beneficial, allowing for internal carriage of torps, freeing up pylons for AShMs for ASuW, something which would be really nice to have as the ATRs dont, whatever ASuW strikes would be done by them would have to be done via CEC