Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Indos]

The WS-10 is actually based on the CFM56 which came from the F101 which was developed into the F110. So those two are actually more related than the AL-31.

There were some differences with gear box placements because the WS-10 were initially designed for Flankers (J-11.) But the dimensions should be compatible.

The J-10 supposedly required gearbox and other placements very different from the Flankers but Shenyang/Chengdu has little issues it seems adopting the WS-10s to the J-10s.

Can you show the dimension, lenght etc since Wikipedia doesnt show it, I hope you provide the link with the engine producer website

 

[GiantPanda]

Lets check since it mimics Saturn engine from Russia

AL-31F[edit]​

Data from Gordon,[24] Rosoboronexport,[25] United Engine Corporation[26]

General characteristics​

• Type: Two-shaft afterburning turbofan
• Length: 4,945 mm (194.7 in)
• Diameter:
  • 905 mm (35.6 in) inlet;
  • 1,280 mm (50 in) maximum external
• Dry weight: 1,520 kg (3,350 lb)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

F110-GE-129[edit]​

Data from General Electric,[12][13] American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME),[14] MTU[15]

General characteristics​

• Type: Afterburning turbofan
• Length: 181.9 in (462 cm)
• Diameter: 46.5 in (118 cm)
• Dry weight: 3,920 lb (1,780 kg)

-----------------------------

Still have different that needs redesign,

As stated the TFX is not finalized and, to be honest, using a heavy engine is a surprise because you are building in heavier cost which is riskier for a new stealth model which would be already more expensive from the materials standpoint. Maybe it is because Turkey already supports the F110. But I recall that Turkey reached out to RR for the EJ200 and that is a medium engine.

The KFX, AMCA and FC-31 (even though the PLAAF are an all-heavy force) went with medium engines.

 

[GiantPanda]

Can you show the dimension, lenght etc since Wikipedia doesnt show it, I hope you provide the link with the engine producer website

WS-10 has not been on the export list before so I don't have the official width and height details. Maybe we'll see more with the WS-10 exported to Pakistan.

 

[Indos]

As stated the TFX is not finalized and, to be honest, using a heavy engine is a surprise because you are building in heavier cost which is riskier for a new stealth model which would be already more expensive from the materials standpoint. Maybe it is because Turkey already supports the F110. But I recall that Turkey reached out to RR for the EJ200 and that is a medium engine.

The KFX, AMCA and FC-31 (even though the PLAAF are an all-heavy force) went with medium engines.

Turkey reach out for RR for their local engine but RR back down. Since the start I believe TFX is already been designed based on F 110 engine and we can see their old design is not much different with current design which shows it is a heavy weight fighters like F 22/J 20/ SU 57

Yup medium weight Stealth fighters will likely be more cost effective

 

[HRK]

In any NATO Russia war, Turkey will be crucial. When Turkey shot down a Russian fighter plane,
some important figures from NATO countries openly said they would not go to war for Turkey because of xy and z ( Muslims),
This must have had an impact on the thinking in Ankara.
If they refuse to get involved in any NATO Russia conflict, NATO will be in trouble.
Large parts of Europe will properly be occupied by Russia for some time at least.
NATO could potentiality crumble if there is no massive US intervention quickly.

western Europe & USA would like to engage Russia outside Europe they will not fight a war at the doorstep of European countries, for obvious reason.

So my guess is that they will try to shift unstability either in Central Asia or Middle east in case of central asia Pakistan, Iran & Afghanistan would also suffer, but in the case of middle east Turkey, Syria would be vulnerable.

 

[TsAr]

Yes, Turkey can build all of those without Pakistan and, I am saying this seriously. But if you listen to the words of TAI's chief there is a big elephant in the room which can't be ignored and Mr. Kotil talked about it i.e. "I don't have enough engineer in Turkey". This is what Pakistan brings to the table and that's why all this collaboration is done at academia level (With NUST not with PAC). Next, If TAI's chief is saying that they are brining some operations to Pakistan, this is no small statement by any mean. I am not sure what exactly those operations are, but we can deduce from circumstantial evidences these will be related to airframe manufacturing. When we talk about it many people think it's because of Thunder and experience gained from that project but let me tell you the experience in this field transcends Thunder. PAC has stunned world's best in the business with its airframe manufacturing prowess when it brought back to life these planes from dead by repairing their framework. SAAB had written off these Erieye aircraft and Lockheed Martin did the same in case of that PAF's F-16B in the pic ... then PAC showed them what happen when you have right commitment and determined leadership to stand behind your efforts.
View attachment 818261

View attachment 818277Then there are legends known as Mirages IIIs/Vs ... more than 50 years old aircraft and still able to deliver. 2019 Op Swift Retort was mainly a strike mission carried out by PAF's mirages being maintained by PAC. View attachment 818274OEM specifications were that these aircraft will have 2 service life overhauls and PAC has already put these machines 4 times through its rigs ... I don't want to go specifications enhancement done by PAC/PAF on these as that's not the discussion here. When PAC/PAF were doing all this, the world including TAI was watching and taking note!
Now, you will understand why TAI chief is so keen to bring the project to Pakistani young engineers They know about the potential, rest can be achieved by cooperation and guiding these potential aviation experts of future for the benefits of both the nations.

Now, coming back to the topic at hand, Pakistan's cooperation with TAI on TFX is not going to be a platform level exercise rather cooperation is on sub-system level where TAI will get cheap but very capable minds and PAC will get fresh, advanced trained human resource in house with lots of opportunities to expand existing knowledge base in the country something many countries want but simply can't due to multiple reasons ranging from political to financial.

As far as Merging of TFX- and AZM is concerned. This is NOT POSSIBLE to do for PAF for very very obvious reason.

Let me try to explain that to you and others who think on the similar lines....

TFX development cycle is stretched to 2040 if everything in between then and now stay on schedule. But we know delays are inevitable in such complex projects. So we are talking about 2045-50 timelines for TFX flying in numbers and exported to PAF. Now, PAF's time of induction of 5th Gen fighter is not dependent on the completion of TFX or AZM. The most critical variable is when IAF will decide to induct its 5GF. PAF is following Minimum Credible Deterrence (State level military doctrine implemented across all 3 forces). You saw how quickly the operational gap created by IAF by acquiring Rafale was plugged by induction of J-10Cs. The same is going to happen with 5GF as it happened in case of 4.5GF! So, PAF has time to develop AZM while procuring off the shelf 5GF from China to restore the balance of power in the region to ensure strategic stability. India since 1971, has introduced instability in stability-Instability paradigm in the region around 7 or 8 times, and Pakistan restored stability in the paradigm every time to ensure deterrence stay alive. (Details are not relevant to the discussion at hand but if anyone interested can inbox me).

Pakistan will continue to cooperate with Turkey on TFX while expertise got will go to Azm as well because like I said (and TAI team also explained in that interview) that NUST engineers will be solving problems by breaking them into smaller challenges. Obviously we are talking about sub-system level R&D. Pakistan, for its own need, will keep Chinese channel open. This is our strategic constraint like I explained above. So, If Turkey can develop everything on its own, we will be more than glad, but if our brother has asked us for cooperation, this is also an honor for us as we consider this gesture as recognition to our talent. This changes nothing for PAF's future plans, AZM or anything!

Why NUST?

Many members have spoken on this as well. To me, it's related to the fact that NUST is only place in Pakistan with supercomputer installed, and it means this is a goto place for every organization in the country who has some sort of simulation, modeling and high fidelity analysis task at hand and require results with high degree of accuracy. This will also clear what Dr. Rizwan meant when he said NUST will be providing same services to TAI as it did for PAF's AZM! But then again it's my own understanding only.

Appart from super computer you missed the wind tunnel

 

[Trango Towers]

western Europe & USA would like to engage Russia outside Europe they will not fight a war at the doorstep of European countries, for obvious reason.

So my guess is that they will try to shift unstability either in Central Asia or Middle east in case of central asia Pakistan, Iran & Afghanistan would also suffer, but in the case of middle east Turkey, Syria would be vulnerable.

Theh will find this hard.
Germany has said it will send 1000 anti tank and 500 stinger missiles to Ukraine. This is directly going to kill Russians

 

[UK_PAKISTANI]

western Europe & USA would like to engage Russia outside Europe they will not fight a war at the doorstep of European countries, for obvious reason.

So my guess is that they will try to shift unstability either in Central Asia or Middle east in case of central asia Pakistan, Iran & Afghanistan would also suffer, but in the case of middle east Turkey, Syria would be vulnerable.

I agree. They would love to see another holy war against Russia.
All it would take is for the IEA to invade Tajikistan and take it over, Russia has a defence pack with them and would be expected to get involved.
Then all bets are off when its IEA vs Russia, everyone muslim will support IEA, then it will spread from there to central Asia into Russia.
It's a plausible plan, but the muslims are now too suspicious of the western encouraged and funded wars.

 

[HRK]

Then all bets are off when its IEA vs Russia

IEA is maintaining healthy relations with Russia.

 

[S.Y.A]

Appart from super computer you missed the wind tunnel

its not just about facilities but about human resources as well, many profs of nust have worked at nescom in the past, or worked at companies like intel, keysight, ericcsson etc abroad and then have returned to pakistan. a lot of them have continued to work with organizations like nescom, nrtc and the military itself on the side. not to forget that nust itself is JVof military and civil govt, with its rectors and pro-rectors coming from the military. Dr Rizwan Riaz himself is an air vice marshal.

It was always unclear how effective the s-400 would be against a 5th gen. What we do know is that Russian in-development s-500 system does have some sort of anti-stealth capability, or at least that's what the Russians claim.

as good as the sensors deployed with it.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Appart from super computer you missed the wind tunnel

Well, that's news for me.

 

[The Terminator]

Ok, ... in a much miniaturised variant and clearly marked as being FAKE! It simply makes no sense to put the PAF flag on the inner side of the tail fin and its angle/position is also not correct. And finally the colour of the inner side does not fit!

As such I'm pretty sure some Chinese had a lot of fun today pranking that over-impatient German ... or should I say "Kraut"!?

View attachment 819929

That's some serious fanboyism.

Off-topic but it's a big news. Project Azm and Turkish TFX program seems to be fused together.

A great interview by TAI CEO.
Time Stamp: 18:00
TFX has officially now become the TPFX

 

[The Terminator]

That's some serious fanboyism.

Off-topic but it's a big news. Project Azm and Turkish TFX program seems to be fused together.

A great interview by TAI CEO.
Time Stamp: 18:00
TFX has officially now become the TPFX

In this interview the CEO tells that how Innovative and creative ideas they get by engaging school going kids in their defense industries. And they make several teams of the brightest school/college students under TAI's professionals and let those kids play with their own ideas and train them as well.

Now they are closely collaborating with top Pakistani universities and inducting Pakistani youth into their industries and also growing Pakistan's intellect/knowledge in real world aviation problem solving. Its really nice to hear about that the Pakistan is gonna grow that much in cutting edge tech by collaboration of leading global industries.

Once the system arrives in Pakistan, don't expect too many pics of it. Pakistanis plan on keeping it tightly under wraps.

Ok no problem. Keep an eye on social media accounts

 

[The Eagle]

Off-topic but it's a big news. Project Azm and Turkish TFX program seems to be fused together.

Let's keep topics separate to avoid derailment.

Regards,

 

[Al_Muhannad]

@The Eagle, please consider unlocking the original Azm thread.

There are some technologies which have to re-invented. NASA did not just give its best engineers for engine design to SpaceX. The results is here. Cost-effective than, reusable space rockets which beat the Indians on cost per kg for a launch, and remove Russian dependency.

London, U.K., and New Delhi, India - 11 October 2021: Bharti-backed OneWeb, the low Earth orbit satellite communications company, today announced an arrangement through Letter of Intent with NewSpace India Limited (NSIL), the commercial arm of Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), to use the Indian-built PSLV (Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle) and the heavier GSLV-MkIII (Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle) as potential platforms to launch OneWeb’s satellites in India from 2022.

NSIL/ISRO and OneWeb to collaborate for taking Digital Connectivity to every Corner of the World

ISRO’s PSLV and GSLV-MkIII to become a part of launch programme for OneWeb’s LEO satellites that will beam high speed broadband on earth.

oneweb.net

Just imagine the military and propaganda impact if Indians start a satellite constellation like StarLink and OneWeb which will have provide broadband capability to remote regions to Balochistan/GB where even we do not have internet connectivity.

@Signalian @JamD @PanzerKiel