Pakistan faces economic challenges: A conversation with Princeton economist Professor Atif Mian and Shuja Nawaz

[Kharral]

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Dr Abdus Salam and all the wrong choices Pakistan made | The Express Tribune

What we did to him is shameful. On his return to Pakistan with the Nobel Prize no one even received him at the airport

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Dr A Q Khan passed away today. The man was under house arrest and suffered much worse at the hands of successive governments. If we applied your logic then we can safely assume that Pakistanis considered him a traitor ?

There are three other panelist’s in that discussion along with Dr Atif Mian, who are not Qadiani, yet Mine & @Dalit ‘s objection or note of caution is the same for all four of them.
Your reading of our objections is way off the mark.

 

[Tamerlane]

Pakistan has a built-in mechanism to resist progress and promote failure. Especially if it means changing the status quo in any way.

Even China and other east Asian countries relied heavily on their citizens living in the West to come back with their skills and help in development. No so in Pakistan. This guy, Atif Mian, talks more sense than 99.99% of Pakistanis but, hey, he's Qadiani, or whatever. All logic is thrown aside.

What becomes clear with this video is that Pakistan has been making incredibly stupid policies that has been destroying the country, like signing power agreements at stupid prices to build power stations running on imported fuel. While at the same time there are not enough exports to pay for the imported fuel.

The rulers don't pay taxes. Large parts of the economy are tax-free, like land and agriculture, which are mainly owned by the elite and feudals who control the country. They'll never tax themselves.

Like I said, the whole system in Pakistan is based on maintaining the status quo. Imran Khan, whose every speech used to be about changing the status quo, is now the protector of the status quo.

So there you go. Nothing will change. The population will go up to 400 million and we'll still be ruled by Zardari and Sharif's great grandsons, protected by the generals.

 

[R Wing]

Frankly, we don't need Atif Mian's advice on something we have already figured out ages ago. This was known long before the PTI government won the elections in Pakistan.

I want to see a quality in-depth discussion on Pak economy organised by various Pakistani think tanks, media groups and certain social media pundits. I don't claim to be an expert on economy. I do know which sources to trust and rely on.

I don't want to see that.

We have enough reports, forecasts, policy memos, etc. --- everybody knows what's required. The failure is in successive governments having the vision, balls and competence to implement the required (painful) reforms.

Just like we know what we should be doing better to deter R&AW and India's hawks --- but instead we don't have the (again) vision, balls and competence to implement those recommendations. If you don't raise the cost, you'll suffer the consequences. GHQ apparently doesn't know what all school children learn on the playground.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

Western admiration for a Pakista

Except the fact Pakistan had highest economic growths during dictatorships funded by US taxpayers money
View attachment 783706

Who cares what you think?

Ayub looked on track to develop a domestic manufacturing base. Up came the populist leftie Bhutto who nipped the potential Pakistani Ambanis, Mittals, and Tatas in the bud with his nationalization, and Pakistan is struggling to date in emerging from that catastrophe. The other two despots who committed high treason did not attempt to use the easy money once during the Afghan jihad and the other time during the WoT to put the country on the path to sustainable development by promoting domestic manufacturing. If only we did something good with those dollar inflows!

On the other hand, look at what the South Korean dictator did for that country. Apnay to dictator bhi nikammay hi niklay.

 

[Tamerlane]

Muslims were able to create and rule huge kingdoms in the past because they were a lot wiser than present rulers. See the following quote from the twelfth century. This rule was based on the even earlier times of Alexander the Great, who was tutored by Aristotle. This timeless knowledge is missing in Pakistani rulers of the 21st century.

There is no kingdom without an army, no army without wealth, no wealth without material prosperity, and no material prosperity without justice. Ibn Balkhi, Fars Nama, 12th Century

All of Pakistan’s politics, economy etc. is based on injustice. The status quo suits everybody in any position of authority. Any change will hurt someone, so they won’t allow any change.

Improving tax collection means taxing land, agriculture etc. which the sardars and waderas of the National Assembly don’t want. Pakistan has more indirect taxes, eg sales tax, that hurts the middle class, while the rich don’t pay income tax. Tax reforms will hurt the rich.

Improving the bureaucracy means firing the bribe takers. Improving police means firing the corrupt in the police. Judicial reforms mean getting rid of the judges who take money.

Saving Pakistan’s industrial capital, Karachi, requires it to be freed from PPP waderas.

Breaking the status quo requires hurting some vested interest. These vested interests are very powerful and have the means to create chaos. The military avoids potential unrest by not wanting to touch the vested interests. They forget that if Pakistan progresses the economy will expand and everyone will have more money, including the military. They think in terms of short term loss.

So, nothing changes.

There’s the story about the mice and the cat. The mice called a meeting on how to deal with the cat

A smart looking mouse stood up and said, "The cat moves softly. That is the problem. If we can tie a bell around her neck, then things will be fine. We can know the movements of the cat".

“Yes, that is the answer," stated all the mice. An old mouse slowly stood up and asked,

"Who would tie the bell?"

 

[Norwegian]

Apnay to dictator bhi nikammay hi niklay.

Entire nation is incompetent

 

[PakFactor]

Muslims were able to create and rule huge kingdoms in the past because they were a lot wiser than present rulers. See the following quote from the twelfth century. This rule was based on the even earlier times of Alexander the Great, who was tutored by Aristotle. This timeless knowledge is missing in Pakistani rulers of the 21st century.



All of Pakistan’s politics, economy etc. is based on injustice. The status quo suits everybody in any position of authority. Any change will hurt someone, so they won’t allow any change.

Improving tax collection means taxing land, agriculture etc. which the sardars and waderas of the National Assembly don’t want. Pakistan has more indirect taxes, eg sales tax, that hurts the middle class, while the rich don’t pay income tax. Tax reforms will hurt the rich.

Improving the bureaucracy means firing the bribe takers. Improving police means firing the corrupt in the police. Judicial reforms mean getting rid of the judges who take money.

Saving Pakistan’s industrial capital, Karachi, requires it to be freed from PPP waderas.

Breaking the status quo requires hurting some vested interest. These vested interests are very powerful and have the means to create chaos. The military avoids potential unrest by not wanting to touch the vested interests. They forget that if Pakistan progresses the economy will expand and everyone will have more money, including the military. They think in terms of short term loss.

So, nothing changes.

There’s the story about the mice and the cat. The mice called a meeting on how to deal with the cat

Entire nation is incompetent

That one quote by Ibn Balkhi alone sums up Pakistans issue. The foundation from the beginning was corrupt and inept, if a lowly street vendor can’t get justice how you expect this nation to lift itself up.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

I would urge everyone to watch this very educative exchange. We should then discuss the content of what Atif is stating. The discussion seems to be diverging. The data-heavy graphs he is showing here are very important for us as educated Pakistani citizens to understand.

 

[Tomcats]

Exactly. The other two non Qadiani experts from Harvard and London school of economics resigned as well when they saw how easily govt failed to defend position of Dr Atif Mian as a member of govts economic advisory council.

If IK couldn't muster the courage to stand against this, god knows how the confrontation of parasitic land businesses and Agriculture would be

Dr A Q Khan passed away today. The man was under house arrest and suffered much worse at the hands of successive governments. If we applied your logic then we can safely assume that Pakistanis considered him a traitor ?

There are three other panelist’s in that discussion along with Dr Atif Mian, who are not Qadiani, yet Mine & @Dalit ‘s objection or note of caution is the same for all four of them.
Your reading of our objections is way off the mark.

Your objections are not even about the video but about them being in an American Think Tank, which somehow makes it automatically discrediting which is stupid but i digress, If it really is stupid then please point out which arguments any one of them make which are 'Anti-Pakistan' and shows how 'traitorous' they are. All of them (not sure about the woman) have worked in some capacity in aiding Pakistan, Shuja Nawaz worked in PTV and wrote several books on Pakistan's History and the Military, helped by his interaction with the Military whom he enjoyed very good ties with. Atif Mian tried to give his professional input to help salvage Pakistan's economy but was rejected on his faith and not his work unfortunately. Shahid Yusuf has interacted with numerous orgs like PIDE and other business councils. Suffice to say all have tried to provide their input in one way or another.
Being Skeptical is fine, but outright discrediting without watching the content is idiotic since it just shows you have not tried to even dissect the content or prove any of the objections.

I would urge everyone to watch this very educative exchange. We should then discuss the content of what Atif is stating. The discussion seems to be diverging. The data-heavy graphs he is showing here are very important for us as educated Pakistani citizens to understand.

I reccomend it too, it's a short brief that'll help people understand the basics of what is going wrong.

 

[khansaheeb]

Aren't the same sorts of "expert bastards" responsible for the decline of the USA at the first pace????

They worship and live off debt, so it is a debt ridden society with colossal and rising debt. That's why the bubble is getting bigger and bigger and it will eventually pop and the pyramid scheme is reset to fool the next generation of debtors.

 

[Kaleem.61]

Nothing gonna work until a neat and clean justice system starts working!

Pakistan can never be on high level with this system and it's people (especially MPs and MNAs).

EVERY PERSON SITTING IN ASSEMBLY PURCHASED THE SEAT BY PAYING A MASSIVE AMOUNT TO THE PUBLIC (In elections)! For serving the humanity!/? Oh yes yes!!!

 

[Kharral]

If IK couldn't muster the courage to stand against this, god knows how the confrontation of parasitic land businesses and Agriculture would be

Your objections are not even about the video but about them being in an American Think Tank, which somehow makes it automatically discrediting which is stupid but i digress, If it really is stupid then please point out which arguments any one of them make which are 'Anti-Pakistan' and shows how 'traitorous' they are. All of them (not sure about the woman) have worked in some capacity in aiding Pakistan, Shuja Nawaz worked in PTV and wrote several books on Pakistan's History and the Military, helped by his interaction with the Military whom he enjoyed very good ties with. Atif Mian tried to give his professional input to help salvage Pakistan's economy but was rejected on his faith and not his work unfortunately. Shahid Yusuf has interacted with numerous orgs like PIDE and other business councils. Suffice to say all have tried to provide their input in one way or another.
Being Skeptical is fine, but outright discrediting without watching the content is idiotic since it just shows you have not tried to even dissect the content or prove any of the objections.

I reccomend it too, it's a short brief that'll help people understand the basics of what is going wrong.

I would listen to them if they were having this conversation while living in Pakistan. At least then I ll know they have their stakes in Pakistan.
I believe there are enough Pakistani economists who know what’s wrong with Pakistan’s economy & what needs to be done.
It’s a common psychological condition in the global south to revere & respect those who live in Rome and are Romans by association.
Pakistan does not need help, Pakistan needs commitment. I don’t see people sitting in far away capitals, championing different causes from the comforts of their air conditioned rooms as committed to Pakistan.

 

[Menace2Society]

Atif should have been running his department in government. Meritocracy my a**, its the law of the jungle in Pakistan. Too much false pride and ego. When that comes down then they will understand the differences they create in their minds are all an illusion.

 

[Dalit]

Except the fact Pakistan had highest economic growths during dictatorships funded by US taxpayers money
View attachment 783706

Who cares what you think?

You clearly care what I think. Why react to my post if you don't care?

Summary:
Pakistan after Nawaz Sharif Bhagora as PM had its economic progress destroyed permanently:View attachment 783683View attachment 783684View attachment 783685View attachment 783686View attachment 783687

You are right. Pakistanis already have the world's best economists to solve their long standing economic and financial problems. We don't need this Qadiani macro economist. We are too good already. That's why we went to IMF after going broke 22 times.View attachment 783692

The irony is mind numbing. Here this nutter is taunting Pakistan for taking record IMF loans. LOL Yet your beloved Atif Mian is an ardent proponent of the same capitalist system that hands out IMF loans. Do you even know what you are spewing?

People like you would present Pakistan on a silver platter to the Americans. You might be impressed with Atif Mian's Princeton credentials. To me this is exactly the crux of the problem. You are obsessed with ideas that are unachievable in Pak context. Pakistan doesn't need US imports. It needs homegrown talent. It needs its own identity.

 

[Dalit]

Atif should have been running his department in government. Meritocracy my a**, its the law of the jungle in Pakistan. Too much false pride and ego. When that comes down then they will understand the differences they create in their minds are all an illusion.

Why don't you guys outsource Pakistan in its entirety to the USA? Didn't we already try this during Musharraf's era? Didn't bring much success or did it?

Thank God for the sane people in Pakistan who have finally given the Yankee fvcks a big middle finger. From Afghanistan to China pivoting. The Americans already know the score and nothing won't change that fact.