Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Raider 21]

Dude? You serious?? You know about the serious issue with the Jaguars engines? These planes are massively under powered, to the point they do not carry a full weapons load. In hot conditions they struggle to take off. If a Jaguar is on a bombing mission it will be the very definition of a sitting duck, it's thrust to weight ration being half that of a F-16

And it takes an entire country to turn around. It would be a turkey shoot for anyone flying with AIM-9s. It is designed to fly straight.

 

[PanzerKiel]

And it takes an entire country to turn around. It would be a turkey shoot for anyone flying with AIM-9s. It is designed to fly straight.

.... Flying straight, nap of the earth,, low level penetration tactics....

 

[Yasser76]

.... Flying straight, nap of the earth,, low level penetration tactics....

With any significant load it will be extremely hard to manouvre, if bounced by JF-17s or F-16s it will have to jettison tanks and bombs to have any chance, and if that happens, the PAF has succeeded in forcing them to abandon the mission

With PAF fielding decent numbers of AESA and HOBs missile equipped JF-17s, Jaguar has no place in modern battlfiield

 

[PanzerKiel]

Jaguar has no place in modern battlfiield

... Unless, the Jaguar strike is heavily supported.... Fighters with BVR flying top level cover for fighter sweeps... BARCAPs.... Heavy ELINT support along with AWACS on station...Jaguar sorties and its targets are generally chosen for their strategic nature and their great effect in case of getting neutralized, isolated or destroyed.

 

[Yasser76]

... Unless, the Jaguar strike is heavily supported.... Fighters with BVR flying top level cover for fighter sweeps... BARCAPs.... Heavy ELINT support along with AWACS on station...Jaguar sorties and its targets are generally chosen for their strategic nature and their great effect in case of getting neutralized, isolated or destroyed.

Yes, true, but I was specfically answering a question on the chances of a Jaguar taking on an F-16 in WVR combat, not it's escorts.

Also one has to remember that we live in an age of precision strike weapons. The Jaguar was conceived when planes had to flow over Russian columns and drop unguided heavy bombs on them.

Pak armoured units have decent MANPADS. Even PAF strike Mirages have RAAD and H2/H4 to attack at stand off range. Sending Jaguars to attack a modern Pakistan army is suicide, which is why the upgrade was so important to them. As of now PAF Mirages have a much better stand off capability then IAF Jaguars. Why else did they use Mirage 2000 with SPICE to try and hit us on Feb 27th? If they had sent 6 Jaguars we would have served 7 cups of tea, not 1.....

 

[PanzerKiel]

Yes, true, but I was specfically answering a question on the chances of a Jaguar taking on an F-16 in WVR combat, not it's escorts.

Also one has to remember that we live in an age of precision strike weapons. The Jaguar was conceived when planes had to flow over Russian columns and drop unguided heavy bombs on them.

Pak armoured units have decent MANPADS. Even PAF strike Mirages have RAAD and H2/H4 to attack at stand off range. Sending Jaguars to attack a modern Pakistan army is suicide, which is why the upgrade was so important to them. As of now PAF Mirages have a much better stand off capability then IAF Jaguars. Why else did they use Mirage 2000 with SPICE to try and hit us on Feb 27th? If they had sent 6 Jaguars we would have served 7 cups of tea, not 1.....

... Agreed....

However,, IAF, or any any force, can be dangerous with clever tactics.... PAF did the same..... A smaller force with vintage aircraft.... IAF can do the same.... The can negate disadvantages of their Jaguars by support platforms, just like we did with our Mirages.... And here pops up the second important point in today's battlefield.... The sophistication of the weapon instead of the platform...... Just like Harpoons on our old ships in the 80s... Same for Mirages as well... A vintage platform which is just responsible to take the weapon to the fringes of its effective range, and then the sophistication of the weapon takes over.... Otherwise,PAF Mirages on their own, all alone, would not have been able to do what they did on 27.

Speaks volumes about the PAF planning, emphasis on integration of different platforms and in the end, coming up with a well balanced package.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Yes, true, but I was specfically answering a question on the chances of a Jaguar taking on an F-16 in WVR combat, not it's escorts.

Of course, no chance for Jaguar... Unless I were flying the F16 with no weapons and bullets on board, even then a very slim chance....

 

[Clairvoyant]

Dude? You serious?? You know about the serious issue with the Jaguars engines? These planes are massively under powered, to the point they do not carry a full weapons load. In hot conditions they struggle to take off. If a Jaguar is on a bombing mission it will be the very definition of a sitting duck, it's thrust to weight ration being half that of a F-16

Yes I'm serious,no one would want to fight an aircraft equipped with an HMS and a missile like ASRAAM at close range,at least not with an AIM.9L/M,doesn't matter whether the sidewinder equipped aircraft is 9g capable but has no Bvr capability.

 

[Yasser76]

Yes I'm serious,no one would want to fight an aircraft equipped with an HMS and a missile like ASRAAM at close range,at least not with an AIM.9L/M,doesn't matter whether the sidewinder equipped aircraft is 9g capable but has no Bvr capability.

I am not discounting the threat at all, but even without the missile advantge the Viper has an upper head against a heavily laden Jag, It will find him first, it will get right behind him, then it can use cannons/AIM-9L from a 180 degree angle.


I have not even started on the overwhelming advantge PAF has in AEW.

 

[Clairvoyant]

I am not discounting the threat at all, but even without the missile advantge the Viper has an upper head against a heavily laden Jag, It will find him first, it will get right behind him, then it can use cannons/AIM-9L from a 180 degree angle.

I have not even started on the overwhelming advantge PAF has in AEW.

Let me rephrase it for you dear. A heavily laden Jaguar would be escorted by a Mirage 2000I/MiG.29/Su.30MKI/Rafale and all these aircraft are BVR capable,now how would someone expect a sidewinder equipped Viper to counter them.
Also I've never said anything about the Jaguar taking on a Viper in a dogfight,thing is it will never have to do that but just as a last ditch measure the HOBS missiles it's carrying are a tough match.

Unless and untill the ADF vipers are upgraded,their main role would be to convert new pilots onto the viper or act as bomb trucks in a permissible environment.

The current emphasis in Pakistan airforce is rightly on Bvr combat,now that doesn't mean that Wvr fighting has been abandoned or they have stopped training for it.

 

[Yasser76]

Let me rephrase it for you dear. A heavily laden Jaguar would be escorted by a Mirage 2000I/MiG.29/Su.30MKI/Rafale and all these aircraft are BVR capable,now how would someone expect a sidewinder equipped Viper to counter them.

Unless and untill the ADF vipers are upgraded,their main role would be to convert new pilots onto the viper or act as bomb trucks in a permissible environment.

The current emphasis in Pakistan airforce is rightly on Bvr combat,now that doesn't mean that Wvr fighting has been abandoned or they have stopped training for it.

I am not your "dear", let's make that clear.

So let's run through your hypothetical scenario than.

A Jaguar within a strike package of SU-30MKIs//Mirage 2000 etc would face a lone F-16 ADF Viper?

Yes, Number 19 is being used as an OCU now, but in war, it will act within a PAF package too, supported by Erieye, Falcon 20 EW and other fighters. The results will be like Feb 27th against a Jaguar.

 

[Clairvoyant]

I am not your "dear", let's make that clear.

So let's run through your hypothetical scenario than.

A Jaguar within a strike package of SU-30MKIs//Mirage 2000 etc would face a lone F-16 ADF Viper?

Yes, Number 19 is being used as an OCU now, but in war, it will act within a PAF package too, supported by Erieye, Falcon 20 EW and other fighters. The results will be like Feb 27th against a Jaguar.

And where do you expect the ADF viper to be part of the package? Also my point about the ADF vipers was specifically pointed towards someone who claimed Bholari would be a thorn in the foot for IAF and I disagreed. In a war time scenario most likely a BVR capable platform would be transferred there but as it is presently with the ADF F.16's only I don't see it being a pain for the IAF.
I will hope that one of the squadron's which would convert onto block 3 JF-17 is stationed there.

As I said before,the main role of ADF vipers is to train new pilots on F.16's or act as bomb trucks in a permissible environment untill and unless they get upgraded.

Cheers

 

[Yasser76]

And where do you expect the ADF viper to be part of the package? Also my point about the ADF vipers was specifically pointed towards someone who claimed Bholari would be a thorn in the foot for IAF and I disagreed. In a war time scenario most likely a BVR capable platform would be transferred there but as it is presently with the ADF F.16's only I don't see it being a pain for the IAF.
I will hope that one of the squadron's which would convert onto block 3 JF-17 is stationed there.

As I said before,the main role of ADF vipers is to train new pilots on F.16's or act as bomb trucks in a permissible environment untill and unless they get upgraded.

Cheers

I give up, easier to try and engage with a 10 year old on this, modern war will not be about clean BVR kills all the time, ADF Vipers are indeed a thorn, especially when directed by AWACS

 

[TsAr]

@Yasser76 and @Clairvoyant gentleman I think some things are best left for the PAF to ponder. I am sure that they have thought about before putting the ADF's on bholari.

 

[ghazi52]

"SOLO TURK"

The distinguished guest at the Pakistan Day Parade & Air Show that will take place on 25th March is the SOLO TURK demonstration team, that is the pride in the skies of the Turkish Air Force Command. During the show, F-16 Fighter Jet with special choreography will undertake very difficult & Choppy maneuvers...