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Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deal

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Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deals
By Dominic Perry
26 February 2020

Pakistan looks set to turn to China for its attack helicopter replacement needs after US embargoes halted sales of rival Bell and Turkish Aerospace products.

Islamabad had in 2015 ordered 12 Bell AH-1Zs under the USA’s Foreign Military Sales process and then followed that in 2018 with a deal for 30 Turkish Aerospace T129s worth $1.5 billion.


67865_z10cshimingu_wikimediacommons_362648.jpg

Source: Shimin Gu/Wikimedia Commons

But the AH-1Z sale has been on hold since US President Donald Trump cut security funding to Pakistan, and export sanctions related to the US-built LHTEC T800 engines which power the T129 has led to the suspension of that contract.

This impasse, and a pressing need to retire its fleet of 48 Bell AH-1Fs, is now pushing Islamabad to consider alternatives, Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, commander, army aviation, told Defence IQ’s International Military Helicopter conference in London on 26 February.

“We are looking at other options. One of them is in China in the shape of the new attack helicopter they have created called the Z-10ME,” he says. “In case the first two options do not materialise this third option will be considered.”

Pakistan had previously evaluated an earlier version of the CAIC Z-10, but Ahmed says the latest iteration has improved weapons and systems.

67864_tai-t129_74334.jpg

Source: Turkish Aerospace

Ahmed is extremely doubtful that the AH-1Z deal can be resurrected, and although Turkish Aerospace is developing an indigenous replacement engine for the T129, he is not confident that this will be ready in time.

In fact, Pakistan has set a deadline of July this year for a final decision, Ahmed says.

The relative urgency is driven by India’s capability increases, as New Delhi grows its fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apaches.

“The Cobras are no match for the Apaches that the Indians are getting,” he says. “We definitely want to match that [capability].”

https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article
 
What constitutes large numbers?

thinking maybe 4 squadrons at 60 gunships

or maybe a dream number of 90 or 6 squadrons

if we have 6 squadrons we could arm a squadron each to the two strike Cores and have 4 independent squadrons for defence and force projection missions.

If we get panzer air defence as well, it would make up an awesome off rice defensive punch for strike cores

thoughts

kv
 
What constitutes large numbers?

thinking maybe 4 squadrons at 60 gunships

or maybe a dream number of 90 or 6 squadrons

if we have 6 squadrons we could arm a squadron each to the two strike Cores and have 4 independent squadrons for defence and force projection missions.

If we get panzer air defence as well, it would make up an awesome off rice defensive punch for strike cores

thoughts

kv

Yes, I believe 60 will be the magic number once a platform is selected they will come in batches to that total number inshallah.
 
In my opinion its better to go for Z-10 in large numbers and set up local assembly for it. This would have long term benefit for local Rotatory Wing Aviation Industry.
A JF-17 model partnership will be a good choice, good for future mass production, good for future upgrade.
 
I'm not a big fan of depending too much on one supplier.

It's enough that we already have chinese origin tanks and aircraft as our mainstay.

We should try fill the rotary winged aircraft with Turkish option and find a engine solution for it.

Depending on one particular source for all your needs ties you down to its whims and desires
 
I'm not a big fan of depending too much on one supplier.

It's enough that we already have chinese origin tanks and aircraft as our mainstay.

We should try fill the rotary winged aircraft with Turkish option and find a engine solution for it.

Depending on one particular source for all your needs ties you down to its whims and desires
Good and bad, if you have weaponry system from various countries it would be very hard to integrate them to form optimal combat capability and a headache for maintanence and upgrade. In case of war a logistic disaster will occur.

During WW2 China had weapons from US, Germany, Russia, Japan, UK, France.. when in real combat, those weapons were no match to highly integrated Japanese weaponry.
In Korean war, China adopted only uniform Russia weapons, the combat capability was improved significantly.
 
I'm not a big fan of depending too much on one supplier.

It's enough that we already have chinese origin tanks and aircraft as our mainstay.

We should try fill the rotary winged aircraft with Turkish option and find a engine solution for it.

Depending on one particular source for all your needs ties you down to its whims and desires
True but our options are limited, building some or most will help with our own defence industry.

We should see if we can buy more European equipment with TOT as the economy improves

KV
 
I'm not a big fan of depending too much on one supplier.

It's enough that we already have chinese origin tanks and aircraft as our mainstay.

We should try fill the rotary winged aircraft with Turkish option and find a engine solution for it.

Depending on one particular source for all your needs ties you down to its whims and desires

Does Not change the fact that both US and Turkish options are no more. Pakistan should have thought about going with a helo with American engine. Z 10 even at that time was a good option and now it is the only option left.
 
Time for Pakistani Authorities to wake up from their deep sleep

Year 2005-2006: we will get Super Cobra from USA
Year 2006-2007: We will get F16 C/D and Super Cobra we are so lucky
Year 2008: Why bother with Z-10 ? We have our 1970 Cobra , We getting Super Cobra
Year 2009: We have been promised access to Super Cobra we don't need to buy Helicopters
Year 2010: Get South African Helicopter with the partnership ? No we are getting Super Cobras
Year 2012: Why bother, in 2014 Super cobras will be retired and we will get them for discount
Year 2014: Well we will start discussion on attaining the Super cobras
Year 2015-2017: No let's not get Z-10 we are getting Super Cobra
Year 2018: What if we return the 4 gifted Z-10 maybe it will expedite the Super Cobra
Year 2019: Well they were supposed to deliver the Super Cobras but delay exist
Year 2020: GOT NOTHING no Super Cobras still it has been 15 years of wait


Comment on PDF , Oh yar dekh zara , Ye Z-10 ka Pilot helmet kitna zaberdust hai

  • Pick up 40 Z-10 Units immediately and order a 2nd batch of 40 Z-10 :big_boss:
  • Pick up the retired 1990 manufactured 4x Chinese Destroyer they are parked in China, put Herba missiles on :big_boss:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/4-ch...-purchase-decommissioned-2-months-ago.633768/


  • Don't wait for the Golden Sword and Sheild with glittering dimonds
  • Provided availibity exist pick up the Iron Sword and Iron Sheild
 
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China never fears Indian military, because China always knows Indian military may look classy but one month into war they will plunge into logistic and coordination chaos, they can never manage to integrate weapons of various origins to form decent combat capability, Chinese military, on the contrary, is highly integrated.
 
A JF-17 model partnership will be a good choice, good for future mass production, good for future upgrade.

I just hope the Z-10 is modified to address the factors that convinced Pakistan to choose the T-129.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/1...ck_Helicopter_Over_Chinese_Z_10_#.XlazHShKiUk
To paraphrase the article: More powerful engines are needed to carry the full weapons load in the Hot and High Altitude conditions the Pakistan Army expects to operate in. Any indication these improvements were made? It seems to mention comparisons to the T-129 in the following video. If you could be so kind to confirm, I don't understand Mandarin.


Other than that, the Z-10 looks like a good Helicopter that we know will be supported by China and therefore can have a long and fruitful life in Pakistani Service.

As an Aside, if Pakistan procures the Z-10, it should also try to procure the TAI Hurkus-C as a Light CAS platform for the Gilgit-Baltistan area as it may be able to operate on mountain roads where jet powered aircraft would be limited from operating. Even a small fleet of 30 Hurkus just for the Gilgit-Baltistan/Kashmir mountain areas will allow the Pakistan army to have constant CAS with long endurance nearby. The Hurkus could also pull up to 7 G and carry 1500 kg of stores (weapons and fuel). If armed with the New highly agile Turkish WVR missile (25 km range); it could be used in the mountains to hunt down Indian Apaches, or transport Helicopters trying to carry out another "Surgical Strike". The Hurkus is more than 100 mph faster then the Apache. the Turkish WVR missile could also be developed to use the RF seeker from the new Turkish BVR missile to be able to counter any IR Defenses the Apache may try to use. These Hurkus could be hidden near normal roads in small caves carved out of hill sides, similar to how the Swiss air force operates, and could operate like airborne guerrilla forces in the mountains of the North.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş#Variants

PAF K-8 trainers should also be adapted to perform the CAS role (IRST, small AESA for targeting), as well ,under the Army on the plains and desert and marshlands. The have a max 1000 kg stores carriage capability, but in large numbers, armed with laser guided rockets and PGMs, they can be a deadly force to counter Indian Integrated battle groups. In times of war, Pakistan should ask China to Borrow 100 of their K-8, if they can spare them, to perform this CAS role. Dedicated fixed wing CAS planes alongside Attack Helicopters will take the pressure off the Air force to protect ground troops, allowing them to focus on dealing with the IAF and Indian Integrated Air Defense Network.

BTW, how many K-8s does Pakistan operates? I have read somewhere between 30-40, while in other places the numbers are a lot higher.

Pakistan should not limit itself to just attack helicopters. UCAV would also be good but they are nearly equally priced as the Hurkus but with manned platforms you can deal with heavy enemy jamming and you can probably land more reliably in the mountains with the wind shears.
 
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Time for Pakistani Authorities to wake up from their deep sleep

Year 2005-2006: we will get Super Cobra from USA
Year 2006-2007: We will get F16 C/D and Super Cobra we are so lucky
Year 2008: Why bother with Z-10 ? We have our 1970 Cobra , We getting Super Cobra
Year 2009: We have been promised access to Super Cobra we don't need to buy Helicopters
Year 2010: Get South African Helicopter with the partnership ? No we are getting Super Cobras
Year 2012: Why bother, in 2014 Super cobras will be retired and we will get them for discount
Year 2014: Well we will start discussion on attaining the Super cobras
Year 2015-2017: No let's not get Z-10 we are getting Super Cobra
Year 2018: What if we return the 4 gifted Z-10 maybe it will expedite the Super Cobra
Year 2019: Well they were supposed to deliver the Super Cobras but delay exist
Year 2020: GOT NOTHING no Super Cobras still it has been 15 years of wait


Comment on PDF , Oh yar dekh zara , Ye Z-10 ka Pilot helmet kitna zaberdust hai

  • Pick up 40 Z-10 Units immediately and order a 2nd batch of 40 Z-10 :big_boss:
  • Pick up the retired 1990 manufactured 4x Chinese Destroyer they are parked in China, put Herba missiles on :big_boss:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/4-ch...-purchase-decommissioned-2-months-ago.633768/


  • Don't wait for the Golden Sword and Sheild with glittering dimonds
  • Provided availibity exist pick up the Iron Sword and Iron Sheild
You? Again with that Retired destroyer BS?
 

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