Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[GriffinsRule]

Ankara and Islamabad have agreed to seek replacement engines for 30 Turkish-made attack helicopters after the US blocked supplies. Some Turkish officials say Washington is retaliating for the purchase of Russian-made missiles.
In July, Turkey and Pakistan signed their biggest-ever arms deal, ending four years of negotiations. The Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is to produce 30 T129 ATAK multipurpose helicopters for the Pakistani military for $1.5 billion. The model is a derivative from the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, which integrates Turkish avionics and weapons with AgustaWestland’s airframe and has some upgrades.
The deal however hit a stumbling block after the Turkish company failed to obtain an export license from the US Department of Defense. The license is required for the US-made parts of the engines that are meant to power the aircraft. The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines are produced by a joint venture of the US-based manufacturer Honeywell and Britain’s Rolls-Royce.

“This is not a technological or financial matter but is purely political at the moment,” a senior Turkish procurement official told Defense News in August, after the problem arose.

With the license problems seemingly nowhere near a resolution, Pakistan and Turkey agreed to seek a replacement variant for the engines, Turkey’s Hurriyet reported on Thursday. Producers in France and Poland are being considered as potential suppliers, provided that new tests are made to confirm performance in high-altitude and bad weather conditions. The US-British engines were tested on the T129 to conform to Pakistani demands in 2016. TAI hopes it will be able to complete the contract in five years, the newspaper reported.

This news has already been discredited

 

[imadul]

Civilian, commercial, military or otherwise, what needs to change is the mindset that western tech wouldn't be embargoed/sanctioned. Two wars have taught us that, repercussions of nuclear tests have proven it, Las Malvinas War b/w Argentina and britain is another glaring example. Wisdom teaches us to use tact accordingly, while stupidity tends to always repeat itself. So the point I am trying to make here is, that if Pakistan Military is so hell bent on western weapons (even if they have a turkish flag slapped on them), then they must ensure the survivability of these weapons' platforms by incorporating bullet proof contingencies. Case in point, the much vaunted F-16s, for all their glitz and tech advancements, can be Pakistan Air Force's Achilles Heel if there aren't any contingencies in place with a sizable stockpile of spare parts, engines and etc. Because when war comes (not if), we would be sitting around like a bunch of idiots, feeling the same way we did during Kargil War. And before anyone makes the mistake by saying that Kargil was different and that we are better equipped now, think again. F-16 Block-52s are by doctrine, marked to take on indian flankers, because there is nothing else in our inventory that could do the job (barring Block-lll Thunders, which are yet to be manufactured). Hence I would urge Pakistan's Military leadership, to heed the advice of not being so naive in thinking that turks have our backs when it comes to the Vipers. They don't, they have their own back, and if all else fails to get the leadership's undivided attention. Then need I remind them that turk military (hardcore, in depth) have been in cooperation with israel for decades. F-4 Phantom and F-5 Tiger modernization, use of Ofeq satellites, M60 tank modernization, Popey missile sales, UAV Heron sales, are but the tip of the iceberg. These are just known programs of the past. The undisclosed ones are to maintain the facade that Erdogan's govt calls the shots, the reality is far from it.

T-129s are yet another example of our gullibility, Milgem corvettes follows on the same track. Instead of enhancing ties with Russia and establishing an intellectual base (Air University is an example) whereby we create a core of intellect on the fundamental brain bank of engineering, nautical or aeronautical, aerodynamics and so on. This brain core would engage with partners such as China and Russia, on their level, as partner nation, not just as a stake holder financially. In the mean time, Pakistan Army ought to be looking hard at Russian Ka-52s and Chinese Z-10MEs.

Ka-52 and mil mi-28NE both are beastly excellent heavy fixed rotor platforms. Russia was negotiating to equip Egypt's mistral with Ka-52K.
Pak will need one of the above for heavy anti armor role as vipers wont be coming. Even if they come I dont see any after sales support and spares during conflicts.
Did Pakistan already pay for vipers?

 

[Nasr]

Ka-52 and mil mi-28NE both are beastly excellent heavy fixed rotor platforms. Russia was negotiating to equip Egypt's mistral with Ka-52K.
Pak will need one of the above for heavy anti armor role as vipers wont be coming. Even if they come I dont see any after sales support and spares during conflicts.

Did Pakistan already pay for vipers?

No they didn't, F-16's procurement came via EDA (excess defense article) and FMS (foreign military sales). Part or full sum of the money for Block-52 Vipers came from the MNNA/USAID ($3 billion per year). Which is why, when Pakistan Air Force was placing an order for 8 more Block-52 Vipers, the Trump administration cut off USAID/FMS/MNNA route for Pakistan. This meant that Pakistan would have had to pay the full $700 million, as opposed to the subsidized $300 million.

As for the Turkish T-129 deal, is was doomed to face problems from the get go. Alas, Pakistan ought to learn from history that the West is not to be trusted at all, they have a notorious and dubious history of going back on deals. Be it the french with the Argentinians, who if had been supplied with more exocet missiles, would have defeated the British in the Las Malvinas Islands War (otherwise known as the Falklands War). Same goes for Pakistan who were hit by sanctions from the US in the 1965 War. Pakistan Military at the time was overwhelmingly equipped with American military hardware and due to the sanctions, was forced to come to the negotiating table. Dependency on western weapons is detrimental to any country which wishes to exercize it's independence in foreign and domestic policy. It is better to go for Russian Ka-52s, Mi-28s PROVIDED the Russians agree to long lead spares and full spectrum MRO facilities.

 

[MIRauf]

President Trump wasn't in office during the last 8 F-16 deals, it was President Obama and he had to go with Congress Bill that blocked the FMS funding for F-16s under Indian Lobby ( Congress Members under Indian Payroll. )

Russia will also stop supply of parts, just as US did / will during hostilities. Beside Pak is not a huge market for Russian to setup MRO facilities for Heli and such, unlike the RD-93s.

 

[Abu Zarrar]

Sanctions hold up the plan of ATAK
The ink was still drying on Turkey’s deal with Pakistan for 30 T129 tactical reconnaissance and attack helicopters (ATAKs) when it appeared US sanctions could jeopardise the sale. Alan Warnes reports.

US export licenses could be declined for the ATAK’s T800 turboshaft engines produced by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between Rolls-Royce and US company, Honeywell.
After trying to close the Pakistan Army contract for eight years, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), thought its biggest export deal had finally been nailed.
But US President Donald Trump had already suspended all security assistance with Pakistan on January 4, “until it takes action against the Afghan Taliban and Haqqani network terror groups”.
Trump accused Pakistan of “deceit and lies” when working with the US Government.
It led to the first three of 12 Boeing-Bell AH-1Z Vipers destined for the Pakistan Army being halted. The helicopters had been flying and personnel were being trained in the US when everything was stopped.
Four months later, the Pakistan and Turkish governments agreed a deal on the 30 ATAKs, which would replace the obsolete and outdated Pakistan Army AH-1F/S Cobras.
Both Turkey and Pakistan are still confident that Trump’s sanctions won’t affect their business.
There is better news on the domestic front, however, with 86 T129 ATAKs on order – 59 for the Turkish Land Command (TLAC), 18 for the Gendarmerie General Command (GGC) and nine for the Polis.
A formal ceremony was held on April 19 to mark the introduction of the first three T129s for the GGC.
The attack helicopters will boost the service’s close air support capability, while also being used for intelligence gathering and reconnaissance. They are expected to be operated close to the border with Iraq, where Turkey has an ongoing war with fighters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (KWP).
By mid-July 36 T129s had been delivered, 33 to the TLAC and three for the GGC.
This year’s Farnborough International Airshow in July saw the first public appearance of TAI’s proposed Hurjet jet trainer, albeit in mock-up form.
According to TAI’s corporate marketing and vice president, Tamer Ozman, the single-engine jet is expected to make its first flight in 2022 and the first should enter Turkish Air Force service in 2025.
“We want to produce an aircraft that fits in between the Hurkus basic trainer and the fifth-generation Turkish Fighter (TF) that will fly in 2023. The Hurjet advanced jet trainer will fill that gap,” he said.
The Turkish Government announced on July 22, the day after Farnborough ended, that TAI, the Undersecretariat for the Defence Industries (SSM), and the Turkish Air Force had signed the Hurjet project protocol agreement on July 2. The document agreed that there would be five Hurjet prototypes, manufactured in two different configurations – an advanced jet trainer (AJT) and a light combat aircraft (LCA).
TAI intends to supply a jet that will allow fighter pilots to move seamlessly from the turboprop trainer to the jet. The T-38s that TAI upgraded between 2011-2016 will not be able to soldier on much past 2023.
The US Air Force is already planning to buy around 350 dual-seat jet trainers to replace its T-38Cs that were upgraded in the late-90s. Under its T-X programme, Lockheed Martin and Korea Aerospace Industries have teamed up to offer the T-50A; Boeing and Saab are collaborating on a clean sheet design; while Leonardo is offering a version of its M-346 trainer known as the T-100.
But TAI is set to offer an international traffic in arms regulations (ITAR)-free solution that will help it boost its new engineering, development and engineering skills. It knows what the solution is, as Ozman explained: “It will be a 5-6 ton class aircraft, similar in size to the F-16, with a 13 metre fuselage, 10 metre wingspan and 4 metres high. It will be powered by an engine that will allow it to go supersonic, at around Mach 1.2.”
The search is now ongoing for an engine, which is likely to include the usual suspects like General Electric (GE), Rolls-Royce and Safran. They all offered options to power the TF, with Rolls-Royce the likeliest to emerge as winner given the keenness of the UK Government to play a part in developing the new fighter.
Overseeing the selection is the newly established domestic company, TR Motor, tasked to design and manufacture Turkey’s military jet engines. Set up by SSM, TR Motor now has its work cut out with the search, development and integration of the powerplants for both the TF and Hurjet projects.
The Hurjet will also call upon Turkish avionics and weapons, and initially act as a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) for the F-16 and maybe the F-35, as well as TF.
Just like the Hurkus, there will also be a light attack variant, known as the Hurjet-C. According to Ozman, it will incorporate all the systems to satisfy the light attack aircraft requirements of the modern warfare, which will include a radar.
According to TAI, the Hurjet-C will have an “extensive payload” capacity of 6,000lbs that will include locally built 250lb, 500lb, 1,000lb conventional and guided munitions.
There is also set to be a conformal gunpod, targeting pod, and within visual range (WVR) and beyond visual range (BVR) missiles.
Aselsan and Havelsan are both set to figure highly in the aircraft’s development.
The new jet trainer was initially being funded by TAI, but the July 2 protocol agreement seems to have changed that. “We are looking for partners and believe there is a big market,” Ozman added
Questioned about Qatar’s possible involvement, given that it has so many fighters on order (36 Rafales, 36 F-15QAs and 24 Eurofighters), Ozman would only say that they have been talking to Qatar about LIFT and a light attack aircraft.
TAI announced at Farnborough that six Anka-S medium altitude long endurance (MALE) systems had been delivered to the Turkish Air Force.
All six systems, handed over in February, March and April, can be controlled simultaneously via satellite. Each has two air vehicles thought to be equipped with the FLIR Systems Star SAFIRE 380HLD payload rather than the Aselsan-developed common aperture targeting system (CATS) planned for the Anka.
Meanwhile, the Anka-B has entered service with Turkish Naval Forces Command (TNFC) at Dalaman Naval Air Base.
TAI is believed to be operating the Anka-B under a lease contract, with the first operational flight over the Aegean Sea taking place on March 27. The gendarmerie and army are also expected to take deliveries of the Anka-B in the future

Source:https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/s...ews&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=news_feed

 

[Signalian]

Pakistan is instrumental in going indigenous initially through Chinese assistance, and countries which need to export weapons to Pakistan are also encouraged for in-house solutions i.e Ukraine for T-80 and Now Turkey for T-129.

 

[mingle]

Sanctions hold up the plan of ATAK
The ink was still drying on Turkey’s deal with Pakistan for 30 T129 tactical reconnaissance and attack helicopters (ATAKs) when it appeared US sanctions could jeopardise the sale. Alan Warnes reports.

US export licenses could be declined for the ATAK’s T800 turboshaft engines produced by the Light Helicopter Turbine Engine Company (LHTEC), a joint venture between Rolls-Royce and US company, Honeywell.
After trying to close the Pakistan Army contract for eight years, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), thought its biggest export deal had finally been nailed.
But US President Donald Trump had already suspended all security assistance with Pakistan on January 4, “until it takes action against the Afghan Taliban and Haqqani network terror groups”.
Trump accused Pakistan of “deceit and lies” when working with the US Government.
It led to the first three of 12 Boeing-Bell AH-1Z Vipers destined for the Pakistan Army being halted. The helicopters had been flying and personnel were being trained in the US when everything was stopped.
Four months later, the Pakistan and Turkish governments agreed a deal on the 30 ATAKs, which would replace the obsolete and outdated Pakistan Army AH-1F/S Cobras.
Both Turkey and Pakistan are still confident that Trump’s sanctions won’t affect their business.
There is better news on the domestic front, however, with 86 T129 ATAKs on order – 59 for the Turkish Land Command (TLAC), 18 for the Gendarmerie General Command (GGC) and nine for the Polis.
A formal ceremony was held on April 19 to mark the introduction of the first three T129s for the GGC.
The attack helicopters will boost the service’s close air support capability, while also being used for intelligence gathering and reconnaissance. They are expected to be operated close to the border with Iraq, where Turkey has an ongoing war with fighters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (KWP).
By mid-July 36 T129s had been delivered, 33 to the TLAC and three for the GGC.
This year’s Farnborough International Airshow in July saw the first public appearance of TAI’s proposed Hurjet jet trainer, albeit in mock-up form.
According to TAI’s corporate marketing and vice president, Tamer Ozman, the single-engine jet is expected to make its first flight in 2022 and the first should enter Turkish Air Force service in 2025.
“We want to produce an aircraft that fits in between the Hurkus basic trainer and the fifth-generation Turkish Fighter (TF) that will fly in 2023. The Hurjet advanced jet trainer will fill that gap,” he said.
The Turkish Government announced on July 22, the day after Farnborough ended, that TAI, the Undersecretariat for the Defence Industries (SSM), and the Turkish Air Force had signed the Hurjet project protocol agreement on July 2. The document agreed that there would be five Hurjet prototypes, manufactured in two different configurations – an advanced jet trainer (AJT) and a light combat aircraft (LCA).
TAI intends to supply a jet that will allow fighter pilots to move seamlessly from the turboprop trainer to the jet. The T-38s that TAI upgraded between 2011-2016 will not be able to soldier on much past 2023.
The US Air Force is already planning to buy around 350 dual-seat jet trainers to replace its T-38Cs that were upgraded in the late-90s. Under its T-X programme, Lockheed Martin and Korea Aerospace Industries have teamed up to offer the T-50A; Boeing and Saab are collaborating on a clean sheet design; while Leonardo is offering a version of its M-346 trainer known as the T-100.
But TAI is set to offer an international traffic in arms regulations (ITAR)-free solution that will help it boost its new engineering, development and engineering skills. It knows what the solution is, as Ozman explained: “It will be a 5-6 ton class aircraft, similar in size to the F-16, with a 13 metre fuselage, 10 metre wingspan and 4 metres high. It will be powered by an engine that will allow it to go supersonic, at around Mach 1.2.”
The search is now ongoing for an engine, which is likely to include the usual suspects like General Electric (GE), Rolls-Royce and Safran. They all offered options to power the TF, with Rolls-Royce the likeliest to emerge as winner given the keenness of the UK Government to play a part in developing the new fighter.
Overseeing the selection is the newly established domestic company, TR Motor, tasked to design and manufacture Turkey’s military jet engines. Set up by SSM, TR Motor now has its work cut out with the search, development and integration of the powerplants for both the TF and Hurjet projects.
The Hurjet will also call upon Turkish avionics and weapons, and initially act as a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) for the F-16 and maybe the F-35, as well as TF.
Just like the Hurkus, there will also be a light attack variant, known as the Hurjet-C. According to Ozman, it will incorporate all the systems to satisfy the light attack aircraft requirements of the modern warfare, which will include a radar.
According to TAI, the Hurjet-C will have an “extensive payload” capacity of 6,000lbs that will include locally built 250lb, 500lb, 1,000lb conventional and guided munitions.
There is also set to be a conformal gunpod, targeting pod, and within visual range (WVR) and beyond visual range (BVR) missiles.
Aselsan and Havelsan are both set to figure highly in the aircraft’s development.
The new jet trainer was initially being funded by TAI, but the July 2 protocol agreement seems to have changed that. “We are looking for partners and believe there is a big market,” Ozman added
Questioned about Qatar’s possible involvement, given that it has so many fighters on order (36 Rafales, 36 F-15QAs and 24 Eurofighters), Ozman would only say that they have been talking to Qatar about LIFT and a light attack aircraft.
TAI announced at Farnborough that six Anka-S medium altitude long endurance (MALE) systems had been delivered to the Turkish Air Force.
All six systems, handed over in February, March and April, can be controlled simultaneously via satellite. Each has two air vehicles thought to be equipped with the FLIR Systems Star SAFIRE 380HLD payload rather than the Aselsan-developed common aperture targeting system (CATS) planned for the Anka.
Meanwhile, the Anka-B has entered service with Turkish Naval Forces Command (TNFC) at Dalaman Naval Air Base.
TAI is believed to be operating the Anka-B under a lease contract, with the first operational flight over the Aegean Sea taking place on March 27. The gendarmerie and army are also expected to take deliveries of the Anka-B in the future

Source:https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/s...ews&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=news_feed

It's again fake news I never heard about Arabian aerospace? Atak is on track I remember JF-17 time lot rumours about engines but plane is still flying today. Pak is a customer and turkey is supplier they said its on track then why we worry? Plus in this deal special thing is we can take Atak from turkish Army as well u know what I mean?
IK is going turkey in March he gonna sign deal for first 30 badge.

 

[araz]

No they didn't, F-16's procurement came via EDA (excess defense article) and FMS (foreign military sales). Part or full sum of the money for Block-52 Vipers came from the MNNA/USAID ($3 billion per year). Which is why, when Pakistan Air Force was placing an order for 8 more Block-52 Vipers, the Trump administration cut off USAID/FMS/MNNA route for Pakistan. This meant that Pakistan would have had to pay the full $700 million, as opposed to the subsidized $300 million.

As for the Turkish T-129 deal, is was doomed to face problems from the get go. Alas, Pakistan ought to learn from history that the West is not to be trusted at all, they have a notorious and dubious history of going back on deals. Be it the french with the Argentinians, who if had been supplied with more exocet missiles, would have defeated the British in the Las Malvinas Islands War (otherwise known as the Falklands War). Same goes for Pakistan who were hit by sanctions from the US in the 1965 War. Pakistan Military at the time was overwhelmingly equipped with American military hardware and due to the sanctions, was forced to come to the negotiating table. Dependency on western weapons is detrimental to any country which wishes to exercize it's independence in foreign and domestic policy. It is better to go for Russian Ka-52s, Mi-28s PROVIDED the Russians agree to long lead spares and full spectrum MRO facilities.

I will only comment on the British engagement in Malvinas Island. My understanding was that the British blackmailed the French into giving them source codes for their equipment which invalidated the advantage for Argentina. If the UK had failed they would have Nuked Argentina and that was the threat Maggie Thatcher used to extract the information from the Ferench. However if you have more authentic sources for your claims I will happily cede to your version. Generally UN sanctions are automatically applied to sections of the world where there is a war or ongoing war and no country is supposed to supply arms to the region. We all know the reality can be a different bird altogether when it suits the country's national interests.
A

 

[Tank131]

I will only comment on the British engagement in Malvinas Island. My understanding was that the British blackmailed the French into giving them source codes for their equipment which invalidated the advantage for Argentina. If the UK had failed they would have Nuked Argentina and that was the threat Maggie Thatcher used to extract the information from the Ferench. However if you have more authentic sources for your claims I will happily cede to your version. Generally UN sanctions are automatically applied to sections of the world where there is a war or ongoing war and no country is supposed to supply arms to the region. We all know the reality can be a different bird altogether when it suits the country's national interests.
A

Im not aware that the UK used nuclear blackmail to extract source codes, but the common held view is they pressured the French to halt the supply of exocets to the Argentine (which subsequently ran out of the weapon all together). There are no reports I have found that they the british were able to neutralize the exocet in any significant or meaningful way. The french had delivered only 5 exocets at the start of the conflict and a few more were delivered in short order before the embargo went into effect. The french had not yet even completed integration of the missile into the Super Etendards which the argentines (and a covert french technical team did after the start of the conflict).

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17256975

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Im not aware that the UK used nuclear blackmail to extract source codes, but the common held view is they pressured the French to halt the supply of exocets to the Argentine (which subsequently ran out of the weapon all together). There are no reports I have found that they the british were able to neutralize the exocet in any significant or meaningful way. The french had delivered only 5 exocets at the start of the conflict and a few more were delivered in short order before the embargo went into effect. The french had not yet even completed integration of the missile into the Super Etendards which the argentines (and a covert french technical team did after the start of the conflict).

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17256975

hi
@araz
both
I actually saw a BBC program on this war where British Naval officer who was part of the task force actually praised the French for helping with the source code.

the program also detailed how the Brits used the method of fake sellers selling the said missile to waste Argentinian money and deny them from other third parties
there was no suggestion of nuclear blackmail or coercion of french who might have said f off and nuke Argentina for all we care. (there might have been some secret negotiation etc but both are neighbors and NATO partners so I dont think it would have been that hard).

the French cooperation and help re Falklands war is usually brought up as a proof that they are allies (e.h while discussing the impact of Brexit).

 

[Nasr]

I will only comment on the British engagement in Malvinas Island. My understanding was that the British blackmailed the French into giving them source codes for their equipment which invalidated the advantage for Argentina. If the UK had failed they would have Nuked Argentina and that was the threat Maggie Thatcher used to extract the information from the Ferench. However if you have more authentic sources for your claims I will happily cede to your version. Generally UN sanctions are automatically applied to sections of the world where there is a war or ongoing war and no country is supposed to supply arms to the region. We all know the reality can be a different bird altogether when it suits the country's national interests.

My friend, I don't know where you got that information from, but I will be honest with you, in that it sounds like horse-shit. If you've read history long enough, in particular British history like I have. Then you would know that the only ones who can manage to keep a straight face and bullshit all day long, are Imperial Brits.

French and British animosity aside, being part of NATO aside as well, no country would really give up source codes of its missile systems. Particularly when it isn't the country threatened to be nuked. Besides, Brits didn't even wield that sort of power or authority. Britain lost its great power status when Egypt declared the nationalization of the Suez Canal. The British threatened to go to war against Egypt, but then the Americans intervened and put Britain in its place. Britain doesn't even have its own delivery system for its nukes. They're American Trident nuclear ballistic missiles with British nuke warheads.

Why the French cooperated with the British when it came to not selling anymore Exocet missiles to Argentina. The only logical explanation is NATO, whereby if any NATO member is attacked, other member states are obligated to come to the other's aid. Aside from that, there isn't any other rational explanation.

 

[araz]

My friend, I don't know where you got that information from, but I will be honest with you, in that it sounds like horse-shit. If you've read history long enough, in particular British history like I have. Then you would know that the only ones who can manage to keep a straight face and bullshit all day long, are Imperial Brits.

French and British animosity aside, being part of NATO aside as well, no country would really give up source codes of its missile systems. Particularly when it isn't the country threatened to be nuked. Besides, Brits didn't even wield that sort of power or authority. Britain lost its great power status when Egypt declared the nationalization of the Suez Canal. The British threatened to go to war against Egypt, but then the Americans intervened and put Britain in its place. Britain doesn't even have its own delivery system for its nukes. They're American Trident nuclear ballistic missiles with British nuke warheads.

Why the French cooperated with the British when it came to not selling anymore Exocet missiles to Argentina. The only logical explanation is NATO, whereby if any NATO member is attacked, other member states are obligated to come to the other's aid. Aside from that, there isn't any other rational explanation.

Openly reported on BBC by BA defence reporters of the time. So if the press specifically BBC and the BA got it wrong then I am indeed guilty of spewing out horse shit. You dont know Maggie Thatcher when she asked for something she got it and the French relented. You may have read it but I lived it and was in university at the time and used to read avidly. If you read my posts you will know I never comment on things I dont know about.

A

hi
@araz
both
I actually saw a BBC program on this war where British Naval officer who was part of the task force actually praised the French for helping with the source code.

the program also detailed how the Brits used the method of fake sellers selling the said missile to waste Argentinian money and deny them from other third parties
there was no suggestion of nuclear blackmail or coercion of french who might have said f off and nuke Argentina for all we care. (there might have been some secret negotiation etc but both are neighbors and NATO partners so I dont think it would have been that hard).

the French cooperation and help re Falklands war is usually brought up as a proof that they are allies (e.h while discussing the impact of Brexit).

My brother I specifically remember the programme and the threat that Maggie Thatcher used to Nuke Argentina. However the point is mute as I am relying on my brain with nothing but my memory to back me up that too from a programme nearly 20yrs ago. But let us move on.
A

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Openly reported on BBC by BA defence reporters of the time. So if the press specifically BBC and the BA got it wrong then I am indeed guilty of spewing out horse shit. You dont know Maggie Thatcher when she asked for something she got it and the French relented. You may have read it but I lived it and was in university at the time and used to read avidly. If you read my posts you will know I never comment on things I dont know about.

A


My brother I specifically remember the programme and the threat that Maggie Thatcher used to Nuke Argentina. However the point is mute as I am relying on my brain with nothing but my memory to back me up that too from a programme nearly 20yrs ago. But let us move on.
A

Americans have put a spanner in our T-129 deal. their technology partnership is far reaching and the way their law is structured even a third party user cant sell their subsystems to a country they have sanctions on.
it will be a shame that we have to give up at this capable platform and chose Chinese gunships purely for the reason that we cant have American powered T-129

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

If we dont get em now. We will most likely end up getting em with Turkish indigenous engine.

 

[Nasr]

Openly reported on BBC by BA defence reporters of the time. So if the press specifically BBC and the BA got it wrong then I am indeed guilty of spewing out horse shit. You dont know Maggie Thatcher when she asked for something she got it and the French relented. You may have read it but I lived it and was in university at the time and used to read avidly. If you read my posts you will know I never comment on things I dont know about.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post, so in the spirit of clarity and having meaningful discussion, I will explain it in better words. I didn't imply that what you said was "horse-shit," rather the information source is dubious, unreliable and excuse my french ... full of shit. The BBC is a master at churning out twisted and deceptive misinformation. They have a history to prove their sparkling accolades for deceiving the world.

Britain had no power at the time to unilaterally nuke Argentina. For starters, America wouldn't have allowed it. As bruised as their egos might get, that is a fact and there is no arguing it. Also, france wouldn't give it's missile codings based on some threat britain makes at Argentina. The story doesn't fit, has no basis to add up and is yet another ridiculous web of lies if in fact the BBC or British PM said so.

We as Muslims, Pakistanis really ought to start looking at information through the lense of reality. Britain ain't a saint, never was, never will be. It's history is a testament to this fact. Believing their stories is an insult to our intelligence. Please be more critical of the information. France had no dog in this fight, nor did it have any benefit to gain from saving the Argentinians from being nuked. They aren't as benevolent as the British story portrays the french to be. For eight years 1946-1954, the french attempted to recover it's colonization of Vietnam. Colonialists are all the same, period.

The claim by brits that their PM threatened to nuke Argentina is bullshit. Only two superpowers existed at the time, United States and Soviet Union. No other country had the balls to unilaterally nuke another country besides USA & USSR.

If we dont get em now. We will most likely end up getting em with Turkish indigenous engine.

Does Turkey own any western or domestic engine design bureau or engine manufacturing plants where they build the whole engine on their own? As far as I recall, the LHTEC T8004A engines are joint development export variant engine, which includes american Honeywell, british Rolls-Royce and some italian firm. The $1.5 billion deal for 30 T129 helos is in jeopardy, as turks face american wrath for buying S-400s and fight against american backed Syrian Kurds. Pakistan may also be targeted in the turk-american spate, since Pakistan has not been listening american's request of doing more against Haqqani Group. Last news I heard was the poles and french were offering to fill the engine void created by american pull out.