Pakistan and China should sign an agreement on division of Kashmir

[saiyan0321]

What form of agreement? a border demarcation? We already have that in the form of 1963 Sino-Pakistan agreement. A treaty where China would recognize Pakistan sovereignty over Kashmir and Pakistan's stand over Kashmir. That has never happened and China has strictly kept itself out of this conflict by not taking a side and asking both sides to pursue dialogue. Its not that we dont want to convince china or we missed an opportunity but the single fact that China has made sure to never enter the dispute. Even in the 1963 agreement China has worded the power of Pakistan to enter the agreement as
" the contiguous areas the defence of which is under the actual control of Pakistan, "

and this wording whether in this form or any other form has always found itself in all the treaties that we have signed with China which concerned Azad Kashmir or Gilgit Baltistan.

If India and China agree to turn the LAC into an international border then it would be a massive shift in Indian policy since that would mean surrendering claims over all of Aksai Chin, something that would not be well received by the people of India. Secondly it would also be harmful to Pakistan since for China to enter into a finalized treaty of dejure recognition of the border would mean that China would recognize India as the sovereign authority over Kashmir since such a treaty, for it to be signed of its legal nature, would have to determine the authority and power of the parties that are signing it and for Deujre demarcation, China would have to specifically state that the region of Ladakh is the rightful territory of India something that would be interpreted legally as declaring that the State of Kashmir and its ascension to India is legal. Doing so would mean that China just recognized India's claim over Kashmir and thus recognized India's claim over Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan, the two areas it is currently building CPEC on and is hold the most strategic importance in its belt and road initiative and if it does such then it will have to uproot all projects that are currently in place since China just recognized Indian sovereignty over that land and now requires Indian permission to build on that land.

It would also throw into chaos the 1963 Treaty since it explicitly states that the treaty will have to be resigned if the sovereign authority over the region would be India so that would mean that it would have to once again demarcate the border.

The other way is to sign a treaty like 1963 one with India but India will never sign such a treaty where it is declared as a non-sovereign authority especially when it is already giving away 33K Kmsq of land.

So you see there is no way China and India will ever sign such a formal treaty that would open such a can of worms and China are not stupid enough to sign something like that. I would at best an agreement that would declare both sides to hold what they have and control the militarization of the LAC along with some agreements on joint patrol and survey marks.

 

[HttpError]

After what happened in Ladakh no one in their right mind would be signing any treaties.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

The latest news is that China and India are now very close to formalizing the LAC as their International border.

Utter hearsay. China doesn't recognise Indian authority in Ladakh, never mind the rest of the disputed territories in question. You're inventing a narrative out of thin air.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Dreaming is free of charge so keep dreaming

 

[fitpOsitive]

Couple of months ago, I made post about an urgent need for Pakistan and China to conclude an agreement on Kashmir.

Pakistan and China should sign an agreement on division of Kashmir

I think the time have come for Pakistan and China to sign an agreement on the division of Indian occupied J&K. Green regions go to Pakistan while the Orange/Yellow regions go to China.

defence.pk

Unfortunately, Pakistan's establishment did not show any interest resulting in China becoming disillusioned with Pakistan and started moving forward with India instead.

The latest news is that China and India are now very close to formalizing the LAC as their International border.

The current negotiations are at an advanced stage of delineating and agreeing on the LAC to reconcile LAC claims and counter claims by both India and China.

Once this agreement is done, China will lose its interest in Kashmir issue and would start focusing on SCS instead.

Once China is out of the picture in Kashmir, India will start focusing all her resources against Pakistan.

I must say that Pakistan's establishment has greatly failed to stop the Sino-Indian detente.

Except for valley and ladakh, China can sign anything. But if for Kashmir, China did any such treaty then we will be amazed that how come China can accept something against her own sovereignty.
So we know what's the eventual outcome, and what we need to do in extreme cases. Mark my words, we will not fire a single bullet, and tables will be turned over night.

 

[HalfMoon]

After what happened in Ladakh no one in their right mind would be signing any treaties.

Let us hope so but hope without any action is recipe for disaster.

 

[HalfMoon]

Utter hearsay. China doesn't recognise Indian authority in Ladakh, never mind the rest of the disputed territories in question. You're inventing a narrative out of thin air.

Dreaming is free of charge so keep dreaming

Brothers, this is not hearsay and dreaming.

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Wang Wenbin's Regular Press Conference on September 30, 2020


Beijing Youth Daily: China and India are reportedly engaging with each other for the 19th meeting of the Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on China-India Border Affairs. The Indian delegation will be headed by Shri Naveen Srivastava, Joint Secretary (East Asia) of the Indian Ministry of External Affairs, and the head of the Chinese delegation will be Director-General Hong Liang of the MFA's Department of Boundary and Ocean Affairs. Can you confirm this? If so, what will the two sides discuss?

Wang Wenbin: China and India are currently holding the 19th meeting of the Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on China-India Border Affairs. They will focus on the implementation of the five-point consensus reached by the two foreign ministers in Moscow, settlement of the remaining issues on the ground, and de-escalation in the China-India border area.

系统维护_中华人民共和国外交部

www.fmprc.gov.cn

 

[HalfMoon]

Except for valley and ladakh, China can sign anything. But if for Kashmir, China did any such treaty then we will be amazed that how come China can accept something against her own sovereignty.
So we know what's the eventual outcome, and what we need to do in extreme cases. Mark my words, we will not fire a single bullet, and tables will be turned over night.

Brother, China and India will sign agreement on Sino-India border which effectively demarcates and formalize the division of Ladakh between China and India. I fail to understand How will this be against Chinese sovereignty?

 

[HalfMoon]

What form of agreement? a border demarcation? We already have that in the form of 1963 Sino-Pakistan agreement. A treaty where China would recognize Pakistan sovereignty over Kashmir and Pakistan's stand over Kashmir. That has never happened and China has strictly kept itself out of this conflict by not taking a side and asking both sides to pursue dialogue. Its not that we dont want to convince china or we missed an opportunity but the single fact that China has made sure to never enter the dispute. Even in the 1963 agreement China has worded the power of Pakistan to enter the agreement as
" the contiguous areas the defence of which is under the actual control of Pakistan, "

and this wording whether in this form or any other form has always found itself in all the treaties that we have signed with China which concerned Azad Kashmir or Gilgit Baltistan.

If India and China agree to turn the LAC into an international border then it would be a massive shift in Indian policy since that would mean surrendering claims over all of Aksai Chin, something that would not be well received by the people of India. Secondly it would also be harmful to Pakistan since for China to enter into a finalized treaty of dejure recognition of the border would mean that China would recognize India as the sovereign authority over Kashmir since such a treaty, for it to be signed of its legal nature, would have to determine the authority and power of the parties that are signing it and for Deujre demarcation, China would have to specifically state that the region of Ladakh is the rightful territory of India something that would be interpreted legally as declaring that the State of Kashmir and its ascension to India is legal. Doing so would mean that China just recognized India's claim over Kashmir and thus recognized India's claim over Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan, the two areas it is currently building CPEC on and is hold the most strategic importance in its belt and road initiative and if it does such then it will have to uproot all projects that are currently in place since China just recognized Indian sovereignty over that land and now requires Indian permission to build on that land.

It would also throw into chaos the 1963 Treaty since it explicitly states that the treaty will have to be resigned if the sovereign authority over the region would be India so that would mean that it would have to once again demarcate the border.

The other way is to sign a treaty like 1963 one with India but India will never sign such a treaty where it is declared as a non-sovereign authority especially when it is already giving away 33K Kmsq of land.

So you see there is no way China and India will ever sign such a formal treaty that would open such a can of worms and China are not stupid enough to sign something like that. I would at best an agreement that would declare both sides to hold what they have and control the militarization of the LAC along with some agreements on joint patrol and survey marks.

Brother, the Sino-Pakistan agreement of 1963 was not conclusive. It left the final agreement to the future generations.

China which has declined to share with India since 2008 any maps of Chinese claims in Ladakh has now publicly offered to convert 1959 LAC as international border. This is no small step.

We Pakistanis can burying our heads in the sand and keep hoping that India will not accept this Chinese offer.

Will China show the same resolve and interest in bringing and supporting Kashmir issue at UN once the Sino-Indian border agreement is done? certainly not.

This means Pakistan would have the fight with India on Kashmir and Kargil on our own in future.

People still do not understand the gravity of the situation.

 

[Silverblaze]

I dont think any agreement will be reached.

India has actually punched above its weight and the problem is it cannot be seen to step back. if it does, it will be devastating for its standing with the west.

 

[HalfMoon]

I dont think any agreement will be reached.

India has actually punched above its weight and the problem is it cannot be seen to step back. if it does, it will be devastating for its standing with the west.

West does not care about Ladakh or Tibet. There is no trade happening through Ladakh or Tibet.

Their primary focus is in controlling the Oceans/Seas which are vital for the trade.

Settling Sino-Indian land border with India allows China to focus all her resources and attention on the Ocean/Sea lanes.

 

[Silverblaze]

West does not care about Ladakh or Tibet. There is no trade happening through Ladakh or Tibet.

Their primary focus is in controlling the Oceans/Seas which are vital for the trade.

Settling Sino-Indian land border with India allows China to focus all her resources and attention on the Ocean/Sea lanes.

The west is very interested in Tibet and Xinjiang. Anything bothering China attracts the West.

I dont think the agreement will take place. China wants india to go back to 1959 claim line which india cannot do.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Brother, China and India will sign agreement on Sino-India border which effectively demarcates and formalize the division of Ladakh between China and India. I fail to understand How will this be against Chinese sovereignty?

See, again, anything beyond Kashmir and ladakh, not our problem. May be even ladakh we can let go, but not Kashmir.
At the moment, Pakistan is facing a lot of pressure from West, just because of OBOR. On the other hand, India is really enjoying the situation. Normalizing terms with China is not feasible for India. Similarly, if India retreats from Aksai Chin, then again some Godse will kill Modi.
My point is, China will not retreat from Aksai Chin, and India as well. If some how, they come on a term on that, will China also accept Indian occupation of GB and Kashmir? I don't think so. Because, for Pakistan, changing game in one night, is pretty much easy and possible.
If we are standing for someone with great sincerety, we expect same in return. For Pakistan, it's very easy to let go our instance on my issues and join the axis of evil. And I think our Chinese friends also appreciate that very fact.
So that's why, we Pakistanis are calm, and quite.

 

[HalfMoon]

The west is very interested in Tibet and Xinjiang. Anything bothering China attracts the West.

Yes. Xinjiang has strategic value like the Indo-Pacific as BRI's land and sea routes pass through them but Tibet has no strategic value. No BRI routes go through Tibet. Tibet and Ladakh have some nuisance value to create some human rights headlines but there simply isn't any strategic value.

I dont think the agreement will take place. China wants india to go back to 1959 claim line which india cannot do.

That's exactly the issue for us. China has now put forwarded a formal and concrete proposal to India to make 1959 LAC as the border. This has not happened in decades. We can hope that India will not accept it but that is wishful thinking. What are Pakistan's options if India accepts it?

 

[HalfMoon]

See, again, anything beyond Kashmir and ladakh, not our problem. May be even ladakh we can let go, but not Kashmir.
At the moment, Pakistan is facing a lot of pressure from West, just because of OBOR. On the other hand, India is really enjoying the situation. Normalizing terms with China is not feasible for India. Similarly, if India retreats from Aksai Chin, then again some Godse will kill Modi.
My point is, China will not retreat from Aksai Chin, and India as well. If some how, they come on a term on that, will China also accept Indian occupation of GB and Kashmir? I don't think so. Because, for Pakistan, changing game in one night, is pretty much easy and possible.
If we are standing for someone with great sincerety, we expect same in return. For Pakistan, it's very easy to let go our instance on my issues and join the axis of evil. And I think our Chinese friends also appreciate that very fact.
So that's why, we Pakistanis are calm, and quite.

Brother, I agree our interests are limited to Kashmir and Kargil but we are committing a great blunder by allowing Sino-Indian detente to happen, Once Sino-India LAC/border has been settled in Ladakh, China will no longer care for Kashmir or Kargil. China will still care for GB as CPEC goes through GB, but we also need to understand that China has hedged herself against failure of CPEC with the Sino-Iran deal.