PAF To Participate in PAS With Block-3

[Rank]

Question also comes down to this as well, if those who are asking for features which we don’t have, why don’t we? Shouldn’t we equip our forces with the best next in line product to get the job done if we building it? If this as @Stealth said is an inside joke what does it do to the morale, flying an inferior plane, I’m sure they wouldn’t be happy wasting time flying this plane then.

My other concern is this jet should have been on par with F-16 to protect our air space. We have a solid platform we should have been able to easily replicate with Chinese tech or something!

Its a good platform according to them with respect to defense but selling such millions and billions dollar thingy to someone else is completely a different ball game. Especially in today's world where every country has defense budget constraints, they are looking for power-packed hardware which full fill their requirements especially when it comes to the "Front Line" defense.

What important for customers with respect to defense equipment? reliability, maintenance, supplies and upgrdation cost whenever needed. For example, India has bought many types of defense-related equipment for Americans in the past 10 years but have you noticed none of their purchase has replaced their FRONT-LINE equipment. It is essential to see is that the vendor is reliable in terms of maintenance, upgrdation, and the most important relation with the respective country (fear of sanctions), how reliable is the source.

When the customer sees that the hardware is in real developed by the someone and the front-end vendor trying to sell you but the country doesn't have such capability to enhance or entertain the requirements without the third party (Chinese) interference, they prefer to go directly to that third party rather negotiating with you if they're really interested. I hope you get the point

We presented this aircraft in every single air show event in past 10 years but haven't got any single order (just think). Something is missing which PAF Won't tell you openly... their marketing strategy is no failed but the problem lies under the product. By looking its a fair aircraft but when the customer wants to enhance inside equipment according to their requirements, or the way you pretend to be a hero everywhere but when customers ask you are you capable to entertain our requirements then we have nothing to offer!

 

[PakFactor]

Why stop at the F-16 when there are other superior aircraft around as well. Why not make it on par to Rafale or Typhoon or the latest F-15? Things don't happen in a vacuum. Pakistan started with almost zero knowledge in design and manufacturing and was able to make something with Chinese help that is leaps and bound ahead of what it is replacing. It will continue to improve it and add capabilities to it as time goes on. The point is, if someone asks to incorporate a specific technology, our answer should always be "Yes, and it will cost you X amounts in dollars and time". Countries, just like consumers pay extra for add-ons, not the manufacturer.

I’m just stating at a minimum it should’ve have been F-16 capable and then push it further beyond that. Chinese are known for reverse engineering they have flankers and other platforms they could have learned know how. My only issue is with Pakistani mind set of doing the minimum.

I agree our marketing sucks from all points of view, I agree with your previous statements in this regard.

Its a good platform according to them with respect to defense but selling to different countries esp when customers looking for something for their front line defense equipment, they are very much concerned about the reliability, maintenance, and upgrdation cost. For example, India has bought many defense equipments for Americans in the past 10 years but have you noticed none of their purchase replace their FRONT-LINE equipment. It is essential for the countries to see which thing is reliable in terms of maintenance, upgrdation, relation with the respective vendor country, how reliable is the source, what about the upgradation cost, etc. There are many things evolved around this. Every country has different requirements and they want a piece of equipment in which they're 101% sure that the vendor can do anything whenever they want whether upgrdation, supplies etc and when the customer sees that the hardware is in real developed by someone and the front end vendor trying to sell you but he doesn't have such capability to enhance without the third party (Chinese) interference, they prefer to go directly to that third party rather negotiate with you. I hope you get the point.

We have taken this aircraft in every single air show event in past 10 years but haven't got any single order (just think). Something is missing which PAF Won't tell you openly... their marketing strategy is no failed but the problem lies under the product. By looking its a fair aircraft but when the customer wants to enhance inside equipment according to their requirements, or the way you pretend to be a hero everywhere but when customers ask you are you capable to entertain our requirements then we have nothing to offer!

Agree but visually if you also look at it, we can’t carry enough armament compared to our other platforms the range is lacking as well and the ground clearance sucks to be honest.

Other issue is with our officers thinking of “minimum deterrence” don’t know where this fucking word they adopted from - this platform should be capable load out wise etc to take the battle to enemy turf for maximum damage. When your attacked the enemy isn’t going to match your “minimum deterrence”.

We will always have the issue of going back to China for any sort of technology input as we don’t have a semi industry or anything to do our own, but being backed by China another growing power should show others the reliability of its up graduation and maintenance etc.

Other issue is as we seen it n Syria the SAMs were fucked due to most likely F-35 EW counter measures what’s our planes capability to do something similar? If our boys able to get in and out, F-16s probably played a role during our Feb 27th strike but what if F-16s weren’t there?


I might be over reacting but I feel we’ve missed a lot of opportunities in the past and catching up is like rabbit and turtle race - from Allah we were never blessed with good leaders just Patwaris with no vision.

But alas we can just wish for the best.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

We should try something more daring with Blk3 like Solo Turk

A Little Birdie Tells me that PAF/PAC skipped participating this year with JF-17s in DAS as it's gearing up to introduce JF-17 Block-3 at next year's Paris Air Show. The Block-3 is keenly awaited by several potential customers and it's maiden flight is imminent.....while some sources say it's already under trials.

View attachment 591261

 

[MastanKhan]

A Little Birdie Tells me that PAF/PAC skipped participating this year with JF-17s in DAS as it's gearing up to introduce JF-17 Block-3 at next year's Paris Air Show. The Block-3 is keenly awaited by several potential customers and it's maiden flight is imminent.....while some sources say it's already under trials.

View attachment 591261

Hi,

There was no reason to go to Dubai air show---. Tactically it was not worth the trouble---.

Paf needs to focus on completing the BLK3 with aesa---and launch it with full fanfare at Farnborough air show if it can---because that is the PRIMO---then Paris and then china---.

Hold on for displaying it at Dubai---unless there is high demand for displaying it---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

This is a surprise---. So many seasoned members are looking at the clear picture of the JF17.

I stated it over a decade ago---the moment Paf got the chance of getting the J10---the JF17 project should have been stopped and Paf moved onto to the J10.

At least the failures and mistakes would nt be put on the Paf / pakistan----the chinese will take care and spend their money to fix the problems---which they did when they were pointed out---.

A nation like Israel---which had been sanctioned many a times---stopped the production of Lavi once it was assured of the F16's---.

To go for a lower tiered aircraft than the F16 was tactically a sabotage over the integrity of defense of pakistan by the Paf---.

The BLK3 JF17 would not be deployable for another 3-4 years and fully integrated in around 6-8 years from now---possibly---.

For the J10---we would have had a fully integrated aesa equipped J10 possible 1-2 years ago---.

Paf had no brains to comprehend that the western nations would never let it steal their fighter aircraft market---.

Building an indutrial aircraft complex at Kamra means that the enemy can destroy that facility thru air strikes---.

Building them in china meant that our supply line would not be effected-.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Stealth I am glad that you guys have seen thru the facade---.

Even though the JF17 is way ahead of what it is replacing---major weapons systems are not replaced on those basis---. The are replaced in relation to what the enemy has----.

 

[airomerix]

I dont know who wants to hear this. But PAF is 120% satisfied with JF-17 and its performance metrics in all the 3 roles of A2A, A2G, A2Sea.

It is complete BS that pilots consider it a joke or PAF's leadership did not have confidence in JF-17s ability on Feb 27. In fact on the contrary, Apart from Mirages, JF-17s were the only interceptors which actually violated Indian airspace that day. JF-17s have practically replaced F-16s from CAP's along the eastern and western borders. Which means PAF has now the time and the assets to further explore F-16s under the ambit of TDS/ACEs.

Last but not least, the systems of JF-17 are still unknown to IAF. They have trouble identifying its radar emissions since IAF has been exercising with F-16s for decades. KLJ-7 is something which is unknown to the world. And in this business of air combat, surprise plays a pivotal role.

Hence, all those members who are speculating regarding JF-17s inferior performance vis a vis PAF's actual requirements are either making it up or they are talking to the wrong people/officers.

As far as exports are concerned. It has been rightly pointed out that Sweds have had challenges with Gripen, Pakistan is still a kid in the global fighter industry. Before investing billions in JF-17s, any country would think twice. Plus it has happened multiple times that Pakistan has approached countries operating F-5s, F-7s, Mig 21s for the potential sale of JF-17s, the US intervenes and offer them used F-16 Block 40/42s with CCIP upgrade and 8000 additional hours on the airframe. Still a good deal.

The Myanmar deal was secured by PAC itself. It was due to Burma killings that Pakistan had to distance itself from Myanmar and proceed without marketing the handing over/taking over the jets at Kamra.

Lets get real for once please.

 

[AsifIjaz]

Thunders are appreciated and liked by all pilots except the ones flying vipers. F6, f7, F7pg and older mirages are no match for thunder and that was the exact notion for going on this route.
PAF was clear from day 1 that it wanted 100 plus vipers and they have been trying for that albeit with an empty pocket and a highly active indian lobby. Americans want to milk us to max due to the general opinion in congress, indian lobby and the fact that LM knows that the next order wud probably be the last one for new vipers or slep/mlu.
The statements that thunder is better than block 15 or 30s vipers and close to block 52 is partly rt and partly an eyewash. Block 52, no way. Honorable member rghtly pointed towards this a post above.

Paf cud not have learned this much from j10s, they wud not be embarking on an ambitious project like azm had they gone with j10s and at max we wud be stuck with a couple or more squadrens of J10bs if not j10as. The storyline for j10s starts at j10b and not with j10a.
The path to azm now involves possibly one intermediate project whether it is redesigning jf17 to jf18 (highly unlikely), upgrading rather overhauling mirages like cheetas in house (unlikely) or participating with turks (i hope so) or chinese (highly unlikely) remains to be seen. Block 2 has given us some insight into an avionics industry that was beyond us a decade ago, block 3 and the aesa will give us more hands on knowledge and experience into something few countries are willing to offer, its like getting 6 to 7 yrs experience in 2 yrs.

To conclude, all in all jf17 might not be the best option for paf vis-a-vis j10b/c but it was and it is the right way for pac. Cooperation with turks, italy and in some areas possibly with spain too is the way forward. Chinese option should also be explored albeit with a grain of salt.

 

[HAIDER]

bad boy

 

[Shabi1]

Yes Alan Warnes confirms it too.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1197359861417283584

 

[airomerix]

I only wish someone could explain the ins and outs of the fighter jet trade to these here wannabe analysts of PDF. dumbells need to be told that about 80% of the world people can do nothing without US blessing. no one other than very very poor and crazy (or very strong) is gonna disobey the NATO powered USA.

@ others:
it's not because it's a bad jet but it is because USA keeps scarring away the potential buyers!

That is right.

Military contracts and deals are only partially made on 'capability' of the system itself.

For instance, even if we agree that LCA is superior on paper to JF-17. Malaysians will still choose JF-17 to avoid 'looking bad' in the Islamic world or it can go the other way round only due to economic considerations of huge Indian imports from Malaysia. The question of capability goes out of the window here.

Furthermore, in military contracts, there are complex offsets involved. Countries want to manufacture a few things themselves and minus its cost from the cost of the aircraft. Even worse, barter deals are made. You buy X amount of minerals from us and minus its cost from the deal. Pakistan is in no position to navigate these deals.

We are slow but we are steady. JF-17s industrial base is hardly 10 to 15 years old. Yet the guys here want to take on developed nations with 70+ years of rich experience of wins and failures.

 

[Raider 21]

It's also emerged that while DAS is now a world class event, however it seems to draw more interest in a civilian charter from rich Arabs and others from around the globe. What's the purpose of UAEAF flying it's Block-60 or Mirage-2000 in the show apart from providing entertainment to the audiences.

What about the other military jets that flew. They had easily more military aircraft than what the Paris air show had.

Hi,

The 2 seater has entered service a little too late---it has effected the sale of the single seater as well as its own sale---.

Pakistan should just focus on maximizing the capabilities of the single and the twin seaters for its own use---go a to a selective few shows Farnborough - Paris - China.

If they are aggressive in their marketing.

 

[Gryphon]

Some members have developed the habit of always complaining about PAF & JF-17. Thanks @airomerix for debunking their stories.

 

[Shah_Deu]

Can someone tell me what are our contingency plans if IAF tries to take out the PAC Kamra facility with cruise missiles for example? Its the one and only facility that all our aviation relation programs are rooted in. Cant we just distribute the facilities all over the country especially in western and southern balochistan so in case of an attack , we dont lose everything! The current setup is like a one room house where the enemy knows where to find you each time!

 

[Signalian]

I dont know who wants to hear this. But PAF is 120% satisfied with JF-17 and its performance metrics in all the 3 roles of A2A, A2G, A2Sea.

Agreed, been saying that too, although F-16 is a different story, but another new aircraft, not really.

 

[Xerxes1]

I have full confidence in jf17 ,block 3 us going to shut many mouths foreign and in pakistan ,block 3 would be better than f16 nd j10 c ,stop comparing jf17 with f16 as blth belong from different categories,jf 17 being light weight and f16 being medium weight,we didnt opt for j10 in the first place because we have different requirements and we wanted a different design,we own jf17 and we can mould it tge way we want wepons avionics its all our choice we wouldn't have this prievelage with j10 , mark my words jf 17 3 will give any indian aircraft run for its money including Rafale ,on 28 feb jf17 did get lock on su 30 multiple times ,p,s pl15 would be a game changer