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PAF To Participate in PAS With Block-3

I hope Tejas is there too. Would love to see the competition. U hearing me @Tejas Spokesman ?


We shud atleast had see the development in J 10C and shud had upgraded our Block 3s according to it. Block 3s major share will be Chineese Equipments
My response is in relation to your second part of the post. What parameters should we have looked at from J10C? Secondly why do you think the Chinese will allow us unbridled access into their premier fighter jet? Please consider in your analysis that we REMAIN A CUSTOMER of CATIC. We will only be allowed access to tech that the Chinese are willing to sell to us.
Secondly please also consider that the PAF opted to have an in house development of AESA rather than going all Chinese. Now as a neutral analyst who knows nothing of the Pak China equation I would venture the following observations.
A. The Chinese product does not meet our standards.
B. The cost is too high and they are not haggling over price anymore.
C. They are not releasing source codes which makes life difficult for us if we want to integrate products from other providers.
D. Other providers have issues with us using the Chinese radars and are not releasing the source codes for us to integrate their weapons on to our platform.
Irrespective of where the truth lies we can conclude that there are issues which need resolution and our answer is a indigenous product.
This also makes sense if we are to develop from where we are into a potent and viable aviation provider.
A

Good answer

I guess my post comes from frustration since we so closely follow the project and feel very strongly about it
We all share the same frustrations and anxieties. News is( if any news is to be believed!) that the product is ready and undergoing trials but PAF is keeping very quiet about it. It is a state of total lockdown this time so we may not hear anything till we are required to.
 
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We are already at least 3 years late for block 3

Before that---we are 5 + years behind on the JF17 BLK 1 & 2---.

From a civilian point of view---it look good to have the right aircraft so delay is fine---.

But tactically and strategically military wise---these delays are a disaster and have proven to be a disaster---.

Our enemy has taken many a liberties in the meantime because of our very weak air power---.

Military is a NUMBERS GAME---and due to our low numbers the enemy has beaten us down on the world forum thru its proxies---our image has been shattered world wide and we jump from the brink of one disaster to the brink of another disaster which is being controlled by the enemy---.

Building your own aircraft if fine and well and good---but in the end---your or mine dying child's life does not care if the antibiotic is made in the USA/Sweden/France/European union or china---it would need it immediately.

And if the dosage was 4 shots and you only found 2 from one source---would you be saying that I will not get the other 2 because they don't bring anything new to the table---even if the child's life depended on it---.

That is what has happened to pakistan's defense and integrity---.

This drama of the Paf of " building our own aircraft " has been catastrophic for the integrity of pakistan---.
 
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Before that---we are 5 + years behind on the JF17 BLK 1 & 2---.

From a civilian point of view---it look good to have the right aircraft so delay is fine---.

But tactically and strategically military wise---these delays are a disaster and have proven to be a disaster---.

Our enemy has taken many a liberties in the meantime because of our very weak air power---.

Military is a NUMBERS GAME---and due to our low numbers the enemy has beaten us down on the world forum thru its proxies---our image has been shattered world wide and we jump from the brink of one disaster to the brink of another disaster which is being controlled by the enemy---.

Building your own aircraft if fine and well and good---but in the end---your or mine dying child's life does not care if the antibiotic is made in the USA/Sweden/France/European union or china---it would need it immediately.

And if the dosage was 4 shots and you only found 2 from one source---would you be saying that I will not get the other 2 because they don't bring anything new to the table---even if the child's life depended on it---.

That is what has happened to pakistan's defense and integrity---.

This drama of the Paf of " building our own aircraft " has been catastrophic for the integrity of pakistan---.
Also JF 17 would had attracted the market more had there been AESA+PL 15 and increase Hardpoint(s)
 
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Also JF 17 would had attracted the market more had there been AESA+PL 15 and increase Hardpoint(s)

Hard points and PL 15 have nothing to do with the sale---.

Egypt got the F16 without the aim 120---.

Pakistan has a lower tiered aim 120---.

Many other F16 operators have lower tiered aim 120---

JF17 has enough hard points for the size of the aircraft---.

The lack of sale is due to NO dual seater right from the gitgo---and pressure from US---.

If the Paf had come up a dual seater from the begining alongwith the single seater---the sale projections would be different---.

Paf was CLUELESS how to market this aircraft first of all---. Secondly---no designated engine and EW package from the begining was a major setback as well---as well as the second seat---.

Time delay is the biggest enemy in a sale---. By the time the final product reached the market---the JF17 marketing had become STALE---.
 
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My response in in relation to your second part of the post. What parameters should we have looked at from J10C? Secondly why do you think the Chinese will allow us unbridled access into their premier? Please consider in your analysis that we REMAIN A CUSTOMER of CATIC. We will only be allowed access to tech that the Chinese are willing to sell to us.
Secondly please also consider that the PAF opted to have an in house development of AESA rather than going all Chinese. Now as a neutral analyst who knows nothing of the Pak China equation I would venture the following observations.
A. The Chinese product does not meet our standards.
B. The cost is too high and they are not haggling over price anymore.
C. They are not releasing source codes which makes life difficult for us if we want to integrate products from other providers.
D. Other providers have issues with us using the Chinese radars and are not releasing the source codes for us to integrate their weapons on to our platform.
Irrespective of where the truth lies we can conclude that there are issues which need resolution and our answer is a indigenous product.
This also makes sense if we are to develop from where we are into a potent and viable aviation provider.
A


We all share the same frustrations and anxieties. News is( id any news is to be believed!) that the product is ready and undergoing trials but PAF is keeping very quiet about it. It is a state of total lockdown this time so we may not hear anything till we are required to.
I agree. The alternative to JF-17 was not simply buying J-10s, but actually putting our hard cash down and becoming a partner in the J-10 program.

Basically, we ride it and sink with the ship if it fails, but if it succeeds (and it did), we bear the fruits by claiming a right to configure it at will, and co-manufacture it.

This was a calculated risk for the PAF, but at that time, the PAF went with a lower risk option in the JF-17 (and probably saw the J-10A as a back up, but as an off-the-shelf buy with no fruits).

The 'mistake' the PAF made was not having enough trust or confidence in the Chinese to pull off the J-10 (which was raised by @MastanKhan years earlier).

My guess is that the PAF understood this in hindsight, and with Project Azm, decided to go balls to the wall by going for a high-cost, high-complexity FGFA program instead of a side-project export-only fighter like FC-31 (which is how the JF-17 started out).
 
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Don't judge me but Tejas looks like a real solid Aircraft judging from the videos. Its tail is absolutely gorgeous. However, I don't know how it stacks up against the Jf17 when it comes to technical aspects such as RCS,turnrate,avionics etc.
B3 will be on equal terms with it. Older blocks espacially B1 will be decimated.
 
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Technically PAF is still clueless on how to market the JF-17.

Quite frankly I am fed up with this aircraft and this Jf17 mantra especially how we mislead our and international community after 27 Feb that we have used JF17... too low even blind can tell you what we have done with India was completely based on Fsola... that's what I am saying since day ONE and look at what we have done recently. Not a single name of JF17 in the entire Op Swift presentation in the PAF museum.

This aircraft is a joke for me... BlK1 Blk 2 Blk3 is now raptor killer shit soon Blk4 V might target B2, Raptor, F35 single-handedly I mean... too much... Have you seen the two-seater? clearly evident some dumb **** who doesn't have any idea about the aesthetic of aerodynamic & design just based on the requirement like we have to make a Suzuki Mehran for 10 people just extended the length of the car without using brain.. the two-seater of JF17 looks like a bulky pregnant shit. I hate this aircraft more than anyone else now. BS marketing strategy ...

This is a highly sophistcated, complex and competitive market. Every single country knows that the aircraft is Chinese and without China, Pakistan not even capable to sell it. The engine is another issue. Sweden after such strong backing with Euro tagged still failed to sell Gripen.
 
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Quite frankly I am fed up with this aircraft and this Jf17 mantra especially how we mislead our and international community after 27 Feb that we have used JF17... too low even blind can tell you what we have done with India was completely based on Fsola... that's what I am saying since day ONE and look what we have did recently. Not a single name of JF17 in the entire Op Swift presentation in PAF museum.

This aircraft is a joke for me... BlK1 Blk 2 Blk3 is now raptor killer shit soon Blk4 V might target B2, Raptor, F35 single-handedly I mean... too much... Have you seen the two-seater? clearly evident some dumb **** who doesn't have any idea about the aesthetic of aerodynamic & design just based on the requirement like we have to make a Suzuki Mehran for 10 people just extended the length of the car without using brain.. the two-seater of JF17 looks like a bulky pregnant shit. I hate this aircraft more than anyone else now. BS marketing strategy ...

I'm almost in agreement with you -- it's surprising why no JF-17 was used in the operation probably the higher ups didn't have confidence in the air craft to perform the task that was needed? If this so it doesn't play well into the marketing of this jet as well.

Another poster above you posted our BLK 1 wouldn't stand up to Teja which isn't even in production doesn't bode well either, and have to rely on the BLK 3; I really have to question the reliability of this craft. The J-10 would have overall been the better aircraft to invest money in.
 
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I agree. The alternative to JF-17 was not simply buying J-10s, but actually putting our hard cash down and becoming a partner in the J-10 program.

Basically, we ride it and sink with the ship if it fails, but if it succeeds (and it did), we bear the fruits by claiming a right to configure it at will, and co-manufacture it.

This was a calculated risk for the PAF, but at that time, the PAF went with a lower risk option in the JF-17 (and probably saw the J-10A as a back up, but as an off-the-shelf buy with no fruits).

The 'mistake' the PAF made was not having enough trust or confidence in the Chinese to pull off the J-10 (which was raised by @MastanKhan years earlier).

My guess is that the PAF understood this in hindsight, and with Project Azm, decided to go balls to the wall by going for a high-cost, high-complexity FGFA program instead of a side-project export-only fighter like FC-31 (which is how the JF-17 started out).
I dont think we were given insight into J10 at the time we were putting our eggs in the JFT basket. J10 was a lot more riskier project and PAF did not want to indulge/ burn its hands there as well. Subsequently proven to be correct as after a couple of accidents the J10 was on the drawing board again in the late 90s.
The most interesting in sight I have had into the J10 vs JFT was by a PAF officer who said that he felt the upgrade potential of JFT was a lot more than J10. My major mistake was not asking him to elaborate and most of our current PAF professional write in short hand rather than explain things.
Our need was also urgent so a readily available programme which is low risk easily manageable and upgradeable was probably a better choice. It is only now that the J10C has matured so what would we have done in the interim.
I also think the Chinese would not have allowed us to tinker with the J10 the way we have tinkered with the JFT.
All in all it was strategically a much better decision to go along with the JFTS. From the point of view of setting up an aviation industry around the JFT was also not possible if we had gone along with the J10.
A
 
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Quite frankly I am fed up with this aircraft and this Jf17 mantra especially how we mislead our and international community after 27 Feb that we have used JF17... too low even blind can tell you what we have done with India was completely based on Fsola... that's what I am saying since day ONE and look at what we have done recently. Not a single name of JF17 in the entire Op Swift presentation in the PAF museum.

This aircraft is a joke for me... BlK1 Blk 2 Blk3 is now raptor killer shit soon Blk4 V might target B2, Raptor, F35 single-handedly I mean... too much... Have you seen the two-seater? clearly evident some dumb **** who doesn't have any idea about the aesthetic of aerodynamic & design just based on the requirement like we have to make a Suzuki Mehran for 10 people just extended the length of the car without using brain.. the two-seater of JF17 looks like a bulky pregnant shit. I hate this aircraft more than anyone else now. BS marketing strategy ...

This is a highly sophistcated, complex and competitive market. Every single country knows that the aircraft is Chinese and without China, Pakistan not even capable to sell it. The engine is another issue. Sweden after such strong backing with Euro tagged still failed to sell Gripen.

You can feel about that if you want, its not the aircraft's fault, which is fine as it is. The fault is in the poor marketing of the aircraft and the general Pakistani mentality of doing the bare minimum. And to set the record straight, the JF-17 was used in the Operation Swift Retort, along with Mirages and F-16s in both AG roles as well as providing top cover. The only person who initially hinted that the kills were from JF-17 was a retired PAF officer, not the best source of information. Even then, plenty of people were skeptical of the claim including another retired PAF officer and people on this forum even. Anyways, that is not the aircrafts fault. F-16s happened to get both kills, and regardless, PAF came on top.

The part where the marketing fails is in the promotion of the aircraft, that includes taking the aircraft to more than just 1 show per year, materials that PAF/PAC puts out (second rate brochures with terrible layouts and even fake pictures of the aircraft, almost no pictures or videos of smart munitions being carried or released so show off its capabilities. Heck you can even find Dassault's very well done documentaries on Rafale, Tiger and even their aircraft carrier and nuclear subs on Amazon Prime Video. Thats marketing 101. Here however we have people trying to photoshop out serial numbers as if thats some state secret.

Take the most recent Dubai Airshow, what did we see of the JF-17 except an outdated and crappy pamphlet to show case our most expensive and sophisticated weapon system? A misspelled banner? Which btw is not the first time that has happened. Says a lot if you cant even get the spelling right, how will you assure customers about your quality control. The other thing that has ALWAYS irked me is that everyone ever interviewed about the JF-17 in the last 10 years, without fail, always mentions how "cheap" the aircraft is. Get that word out of your vocabulary. A $30MM jet is not cheap by any standard and that is also not a quality to describe anything you are selling, unless its to a kabariya.

Finally, though people have been talking about the failure to produce a 2-seat version early on for some time, and I agree it was a big oversight, its not insurmountable. If Lockheed can come to an event with a flight simulator to show off the capabilities of its 40 year old fighter that almost everyone in the world already knows about, why don't we have the ability to take one with us every time we go to a huge exhibit like Dubai or Paris Airshow or even one in China. I can bet people would be lining up to see the simulator and trying to get a few minutes of virtual flight time in it. That would be completely acceptable in lieu of having a twin-seater jet there and a lot less expensive as well.

I hope PAC/PAF takes note of the glaring errors they have been making so far. It takes the same amount of money to design and print a shitty looking pamphlet as it does a nice looking one. Every picture of the JF-17 should be of a fully loaded aircraft with different weapons it can carry for the different roles, including A-A, A-G (with REK, LGBs, LDP), ASMs, and ARMs. Also every picture should display the refueling probe. These are pretty simple and common sense things. Pick up any aviation magazine and you will see how the competition displays its products. Even LIFT trainers showcase more capabilities in a single picture than we do with our jet.

Also, if you are going to display models, show a cutaway with a mockup AESA radar instead. We have seen plenty of simple models by now over the last 10 years and as has everyone else. Need to up the game here guys.
 
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I dont think we were given insight into J10 at the time we were putting our eggs in the JFT basket. J10 was a lot more riskier project and PAF did not want to indulge/ burn its hands there as well. Subsequently proven to be correct as after a couple of accidents the J10 was on the drawing board again in the late 90s.
The most interesting in sight I have had into the J10 vs JFT was by a PAF officer who said that he felt the upgrade potential of JFT was a lot more than J10. My major mistake was not asking him to elaborate and most of our current PAF professional write in short hand rather than explain things.
Our need was also urgent so a readily available programme which is low risk easily manageable and upgradeable was probably a better choice. It is only now that the J10C has matured so what would we have don in the interim.
I also think the Chinese would not have allowed us to tinker with the J10 the way we have tinkered with the JFT.
All in all it was strategically a much better decision to go along with the JFTS. From the point of view of setting up an aviation industry around the JFT was also not possible if we had gone along with the J10.
A

Two of my friends are currently flying BLK52. One was the part of Red Flag exercise including with Chinese in China. I have asked both of them multiple times about the JF17, its performance with the competitors and the comparison btw JF17 with F16 and every time both of them are not much interested to talk about in detail. But the way they explained a little bit of information, anyone can easily get an idea about the JFT is not even in the league. They're not happy with the JF17 with respect to so called state of the art thingy or the way PAF presenting this into the international market. Once he said "bhai ye gari nahi jo bik jayegi market bohat competitive aur demanding hey, koi adhi cheez koi nahe kareedta aglay presentation letay hi 300 ki list pakra detay hain ye ye features ismay hain yaa nahe or agar add hongay tu per unit cost aur kitna karcha hoga additional modules ka aur ye karayga koon aur kitnay waqt may aur istarhan ki 1000 sawaal aur jiska jawab hamari administration kay paas nahe... kyonkay ham uthna he karsakhtay hain jitne okaat hey... agar kise nay roo pit kay utha b lya market say tu uskay liye bhi hamko pehlay acha khasa demand features ka entertain karna parayga jiske abhe hamaray paas capability b nahe again China ki achi khasi input required hey.... Americans Euro aur France ka game hey woh aap ki demand bhi pori karsakhtay hain aur aap ko aap kay 300 kay bajaye 30000 sawaaloon ka jawab b daysakhtay hain aap ki hey itne capability? Bilkul b nahe... its a billion dollars of game"

He said It is just a second or secondary car inside the roof, nothing special about it. The comparison btw F16 V JF17 is like a joke for us (for Pilots) whenever we see our legends busy in doing comparisons on the TV channels... for us theyre misleading everyone....
 
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Two of my friends are currently flying BLK52. One was the part of Red Flag exercise including with Chinese in China. I have asked both of them multiple times about the JF17, its performance with the competitors and the comparison btw JF17 with F16 and every time both of them were not much interested to talk about in detail. But the way they explained a little bit of information, anyone can easily get an idea about the JFT is not even in the league. They're not happy with the JF17 with respect to so called state of the art thingy or the way PAF presenting this into the international market. Once he said "bhai ye gari nahi jo bik jayegi market bohat competitive aur demanding hey, koi adhi cheez koi nahe kareedta aglay presentation letay hi 300 ki list pakra detay hain ye ye features ismay hain yaa nahe or agar add hongay tu per unit cost aur kitna karcha hoga additional modules ka aur ye karayga koon aur kitnay waqt may aur istarhan ki 1000 sawaal aur jiska jawab hamari administration kay paas nahe... kyonkay ham uthna he karsakhtay hain jitne okaat hey... agar kise nay roo pit kay utha b lya market say tu uskay liye bhi hamko pehlay acha khasa demand features ka entertain karna parayga jiske abhe hamaray paas capability b nahe again China ki achi khasi input required hey.... Americans Euro aur France ka game hey woh aap ki demand bhi pori karsakhtay hain aur aap ko aap kay 300 kay bajaye 30000 sawaaloon ka jawab b daysakhtay hain aap ki hey itne capability? Bilkul b nahe... its a billion dollars of game"

He said It is just a second or secondary car inside the roof, nothing special about it. The comparison btw F16 V JF17 is like a joke for us (for Pilots) whenever we see our legends busy in doing comparisons on the TV channels... for us theyre misleading everyone....

No one but fan boys here think JF-17 can replace the F-16, so in agreement with the pilots as well. Of course, if you ask the pilots that flew the A-5s, F-6s and F-7s and compare those to the JF-17, the quantum jump in capabilities is much higher than the difference between JF-17 and F-16.

Where I disagree with these pilots, is again marketing. Has PAF not been a customer before? Don't we evaluate the shit out of every weapon system we are buying, be it aircraft, attack helicopters, tanks, rifles etc? Why would we think or assume it would be any different when selling a high tech product that is worth millions or dollars? The fact that they are talking about missing features and customers asking for this or that, shows that your friends might be good pilots but will make shitty salesmen. Its not their job after all. That is why in my earlier post, I vented about PAF using the word cheap and making it synonymous with the JF-17. Most idiotic thing when trying to sell a hightech product.

There are plenty of precedents of countries selling higher tech versions of jets to other countries that are custom built to their requirements. UAEAFs F-16s are a prime example of that, as well as the new Gripen E/F and even the Saab 2000 or Bombardier based AWACS are more advanced then what the Swedes use.
 
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No one but fan boys here think JF-17 can replace the F-16, so in agreement with the pilots as well. Of course, if you ask the pilots that flew the A-5s, F-6s and F-7s and compare those to the JF-17, the quantum jump in capabilities is much higher than the difference between JF-17 and F-16.

Where I disagree with these pilots, is again marketing. Has PAF not been a customer before? Don't we evaluate the shit out of every weapon system we are buying, be it aircraft, attack helicopters, tanks, rifles etc? Why would we think or assume it would be any different when selling a high tech product that is worth millions or dollars? The fact that they are talking about missing features and customers asking for this or that, shows that your friends might be good pilots but will make shitty salesmen. Its not their job after all. That is why in my earlier post, I vented about PAF using the word cheap and making it synonymous with the JF-17. Most idiotic thing when trying to sell a hightech product.

There are plenty of precedents of countries selling higher tech versions of jets to other countries that are custom built to their requirements. UAEAFs F-16s are a prime example of that, as well as the new Gripen E/F and even the Saab 2000 or Bombardier based AWACS are more advanced then what the Swedes use.

Question also comes down to this as well, if those who are asking for features which we don’t have, why don’t we? Shouldn’t we equip our forces with the best next in line product to get the job done if we building it? If this as @Stealth said is an inside joke what does it do to the morale, flying an inferior plane, I’m sure they wouldn’t be happy wasting time flying this plane then.

My other concern is this jet should have been on par with F-16 to protect our air space. We have a solid platform we should have been able to easily replicate with Chinese tech or something!
 
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Question also comes down to this as well, if those who are asking for features which we don’t have, why don’t we? Shouldn’t we equip our forces with the best next in line product to get the job done if we building it? If this as @Stealth said is an inside joke what does it do to the morale, flying an inferior plane, I’m sure they wouldn’t be happy wasting time flying this plane then.

My other concern is this jet should have been on par with F-16 to protect our air space. We have a solid platform we should have been able to easily replicate with Chinese tech or something!
Why stop at the F-16 when there are other superior aircraft around as well. Why not make it on par to Rafale or Typhoon or the latest F-15? Things don't happen in a vacuum. Pakistan started with almost zero knowledge in design and manufacturing and was able to make something with Chinese help that is leaps and bound ahead of what it is replacing. It will continue to improve it and add capabilities to it as time goes on. The point is, if someone asks to incorporate a specific technology, our answer should always be "Yes, and it will cost you X amounts in dollars and time". Countries, just like consumers pay extra for add-ons, not the manufacturer.
 
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