PAF to induct 188 JF-17 aircrafts including 26 JF-17B & 50 JF-17 Blk3

[araz]

Since you deprive us of your presence. No.

Have a nice day

Bhai. I am around just busy with life and ramadan does the rest. It would have been helpful to have had your thoughts however as you wish.
Regards
A

There is one thing in common with Mastan and Indians, both like being humiliated in public.

Please can I make a friendly request. Leave personalities aside and comment on posts. Mastan Khan remains on my ignore list however I respect his views irrespective. If we came down to mud slinging then we have problems maintaining standards.
Kind regards.
A

I think there is still chance for ex-Egyptian Mirages to come .. that will fulfill the fix delta wing jet problem, and they can replace the Mirage III/V on immediate basis .

Every platform has a life and that would go for the Egyptian M3s as well. They are at best interim solutions in the form of spares and some useable platforms(I have doubts on account of the Egyptian record of poor maintenance however this remains my personal view so feel free to disagree). We will need an interim platform post 2022 to take up tuis slot. Whether we can get by with more 16s or we buy another platform remains to be seen. M2ks in my humble opini9n are now out of the equation altogether.
A

 

[Army research]

Bhai. I am around just busy with life and ramadan does the rest. It would have been helpful to have had your thoughts however as you wish.
Regards
A


Please can I make a friendly request. Leave personalities aside and comment on posts. Mastan Khan remains on my ignore list however I respect his views irrespective. If we came down to mud slinging then we have problems maintaining standards.
Kind regards.
A


Every platform has a life and that would go for the Egyptian M3s as well. They are at best interim solutions in the form of spares and some useable platforms(I have doubts on account of the Egyptian record of poor maintenance however this remains my personal view so feel free to disagree). We will need an interim platform post 2022 to take up tuis slot. Whether we can get by with more 16s or we buy another platform remains to be seen. M2ks in my humble opini9n are now out of the equation altogether.
A

Could it have been the airforce was counting on the economy to improve?
Will it improve ?
Consider if finances remain crunched , it has publicly stated the JF line has a capacity of 25 per year compared to the 16 we make now , instead of a new platform( I myself would like to see a interim medium weight interim air sup fighter ) , we fully utilize the line at 25 per annum For block III , from 2020-2022 That means 18 extra planes , which is ~one squadron, by 2024 that means 36 extra planes, which is what a foreign order would most likely look like ,

 

[MastanKhan]

Could it have been the airforce was counting on the economy to improve?
Will it improve ?
Consider if finances remain crunched , it has publicly stated the JF line has a capacity of 25 per year compared to the 16 we make now , instead of a new platform( I myself would like to see a interim medium weight interim air sup fighter ) , we fully utilize the line at 25 per annum For block III , from 2020-2022 That means 18 extra planes , which is ~one squadron, by 2024 that means 36 extra planes, which is what a foreign order would most likely look like ,

Hi,

From your post it looks like that you have missed the news---. China had stated that it would open the production line in china if Paf needs extra aircraft in a hurry---.

So---the unit count is not the issue---the issue seems to be the Paf---as to how many it can absorb in a certain time frame---.

Second option would be---if the Prime Minister orders it---then the timeline can be expedited---.

Another thing is that there are certain products in the pipeline that the Paf would rather delay the procurement a little but rather than rush it---.

 

[araz]

Could it have been the airforce was counting on the economy to improve?
Will it improve ?
Consider if finances remain crunched , it has publicly stated the JF line has a capacity of 25 per year compared to the 16 we make now , instead of a new platform( I myself would like to see a interim medium weight interim air sup fighter ) , we fully utilize the line at 25 per annum For block III , from 2020-2022 That means 18 extra planes , which is ~one squadron, by 2024 that means 36 extra planes, which is what a foreign order would most likely look like ,

I think with the games being played in the region it is unlikely that the economy will improve in the forseeable future. 2020 is the pivot of these games and we need to see how Pakland fares. So far the picture looks bleak but let us see. There will possibly be more pressure from Indostan cajoled by some snakes with eyes on resources and regional control. The outcome is unlikely to be good. So procurement plans will be kept at bay possibly with some hand me downs but no substantial new buys. This unfortunately is what I see. I think we need to see the financial situation improve before any substantial progress will be made on the defence front.
A

Increase the number of Block 3s. and also replace Block 1s with Block 3s. PAF should try to get its hands on mirage 2000s if possible to fill the gap.

It is the proverbial f word that comes in the way of all of these plans. At this moment water reservoirs in my view are a more urgent need than fighters. However if we dont go bust before 2022 I forsee a purchase by PAF. What depends on what is available at the time.
A

 

[khanasifm]

So b model /block 3 wing span increase by almost a meter confirmed

 

[Ultima Thule]

So b model /block 3 wing span increase by almost a meter confirmed

not wing span but wing area is changed, wing span remain same @khanasifm

 

[ProudPak]

Modern aerial combat requires extensive supporting infrastructure and assets before a fighter jet can even take off. Every jet has strengths and weaknesses, which is why you have hi-lo pairing for example. Even some of the most advanced jets such as F-35 envisage older gen jets making up the tip of the spear.

For Thunder to be truly effective and shine, you need at least an AEWACS.

Ofcourse that's pretty obvious

 

[syed_yusuf]

not wing span but wing area is changed, wing span remain same @khanasifm

How is that possible without changing what wing size

 

[Ultima Thule]

How is that possible without changing what wing size

Wing area is different than wing span, here is the difference between wing area and wing span @syed_yusuf

WING AREA
This slide shows the wing shapes for a variety of aircraft as viewed from above while looking down on the wing--a view called the planform of the wing. For all of the wings shown above, we are looking at only one of the two wings. The Wright Brothers stacked their two wings one on top of the other, while modern aircraft typically have wings on either side of the fuselage.

You can see that wings come in many different planforms: rectangular, triangular, trapezoidal, or even in complex combinations like the Space Shuttle. To figure out how much lift a wing will generate, you must be able to calculate the area of any of these shapes--a skill learned in high school and used every day by design engineers. For the rectangular wing the area is equal to the span (s) times the chord (c);

A = s * c

For a trapezoidal wing, we need to know the semi-span (s), which is the distance from the root to the wing tip, and the chord length at the root (cr) and at the tip (ct). Then from the equation for a trapezoid, the area is one half the sum of the tip and root chords times the semi-span;

A = .5 * [ ct + cr ] * s

For the triangular planform the area is equal to one half of the root chord times the semi-span;

A = .5 * cr * s

For a compound configuration like the Space Shuttle, you have to break up the wing into simple shapes which you can compute.


wingspan
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/VirtualAero/BottleRocket/airplane/area.html

The wingspan (or just span) of a bird or an airplaneis the distance from one wingtip to the other wingtip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingspan
​

@syed_yusuf

 

[GriffinsRule]

OK people.
Now in the last adress to airmen by the last Air chief he said PAF wants a fleet of 350 to 375 aircrafts. Assuming 185 JFTs and 75(roughly) 16s give us 260 platforms. So we are short by 90.Iam assuming PGs will go by 2022 if not sooner, but how long can the M3/5s last? Certainly not longer than 2025.
The option would therefore be:
A. Extra 16s if we can get them.
B. An interim Delta platform to replace the M3/5 Roles.
C. A twin seater to extend PAF air power over the Sea and provide cover to platforms plus for their longer loitering time.
D. Extend number of JFTs.
The priorities can be changed on account of availability and finances and requirements but this is what should be debated further.
The finances are even with the best of intentions not going to imrove in the next 3-5years. Tuere are multifaceted problems and the system revamp that is needed is beyond the present lot odf people at the helm of affairs. Assuming that the economy stabilizes in 2022/-25(a big IF IMHO), what options are open to us around 2022?
Another pivot in this conundrum is the J31. Where is it going to be around that time? Chosen or dumped? If chosen by PLAAN then the best platform to go for would be J31 60 in numbers. So we have it established in service by 2027. If not then we may revert to the 4 options above. This is how I perceive it. Azm is for post 2030 so I have not included it in my assesment. I suspect PAF will opt for 30 additional JFTS but again it all depends on how varrious things progress.
A

Here is how I see the near term acquisitions of the PAF.

A. Plausible but only if the US-Pakistan relations warm up. If we see the Cobras coming to Pakistan, only then I would consider the possibility of any additional used F-16s to be acquired.

B. Would love to see Qatari or UAEAF Mirages in PAF, however all indicators point to Iraq getting its hand on these birds (at least the Qatari ones in the short term)

C. No new twin-seater besides JF-17 anytime soon.

D. Only realistic option, however, its numbered are also dependent on the fiscal outlay. If the AF is looking to acquire any LIFT platforms, they will eat into the budget for producing more Thunders.

Now, as pointed out, PAC is on record stating their full capacity has not been utilized just yet, and its due to fiscal issues primarily but also related issues such as the ability to absorb new aircraft and on top, maximizing the use of platforms with still plenty of life in them, as in the case of F-7PGs.

Now, your time frames for retirement of the older types are way too optimistic. As a guide using PAF's latest acquisition, PAF started negotiations after US Congress approval for F-16s in 2005. Wasnt until Nov 2006 that a contract was finally signed and then the first aircraft rolled out around Oct 2009. So if we are to assume a new acquisition and induction of a fighter by 2025, it would have to be ordered this year or next and given our fiscal situation, I dont see it happening. So the only prudent path forward for us is to keep on churning out JF-17s for local and foreign orders.

 

[PakShaheen79]

188 is NOT the final count of JFT. It is just what PAF is looking at in the next PHASE. What lies beyond that point when we will complete induction of 50 Block IIIs is yet to be revealed. Anything about that time is purely a guess work. People have mentioned finances multiple times here, Yes the situation is not good. But, it was with similar economic weakness, we ordered 8 Subs, multiple Frigates, smaller boats etc. for Navy. CPEC and Gwadar raised the demand and State had to appreciate the water-bound threats to these projects and responded to those threats despite difficult economic situation. Now, after Feb 26-27th, I am certain that security managers will reevaluate the threats and a response plan will be executed accordingly. For JFT, as long as program is running smoothly, there is no need of panic, we never know, PAC might be preparing data-recording sheets to access Block-III performance on its arrival to prepare data for input into Block-IVs. (Just a thought)

 

[Aasimkhan]

Some of the JF-17Bs should be given the role of Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) while some should be given the strike role with H weapons & Raad missiles.

Dont forget the role of dedicated jammers

 

[ProudPak]

Guys why are we behaving like PAF are run by 10 year olds. They know what is better and what should be our first piriorty. We should just state our guesses about their future actions instead of telling them what to do...

We you have emailed it. People here think they are experts and as usual have strong opinions such as engine of jf17 is poor. Thrust to weight ratio is bad bla bla bla. What they forget is PAF laid the foundations of this jet and not having the manufacturing capabilities employed Chinas help
Today 58 percent I believe we manufacture. The men and airforce that designed this aircraft have to fly it and fight in it. They risk their life in it yet armchair engineers know better.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

I think, PAF will try to procure some used F16s and MK2005 from UAE.

 

[NA71]

DarGuzar, Muafi, Sabar , Isteqaamat....Lessons of Ramadan.