PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[MKC]

I herd the Indian Rafale hoo haa when I was in diapers. I managed so stop being in diapers and wear pants. Now I got plenty of grey hair,but still no Rafale in IAF.
I will believe when I see it in Indian colours.

What do you think? What was earliest possible date for India to induct Rafales?
As of today it is one of the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world, till date only 150 are built.
Problem for India is not delay in getting Rafales but delay in getting MRCA as many aircrafts are retiring.

The 8 points that you have mentioned do not completely describe the situation. Why?

1) The true picture of how many Rafales are actually being bought is still not known.
2) Where are these Rafales be stationed.
3) The kind of war strategy IAF would device for the Rafales.
4) What other assets would be available along with the Rafales.
5) Will the IN also buy Rafale M's if yes then how many and what kind of battle scenario would that make.

The Role of PAF in the beginning was to have a hard hitting force which would have latest and best equipment. After the 1965 war this has become a dream. The threat of sanctions and non availability of advance weapons and delivery systems really limits the capabilities of deep strike and air supremacy that was attained in 1965.

Looking at present or the 2-4 years that PAF has before considerable number of Rafales enter IAF service we can only see that PAF is only capable of denial of airspace over Pakistan. This conclusion is evident from the limited number of F-16s PAF has as compared to SU-30 MKI.

What should be done?
IMO
1) Increase the number of JF-17 blk 3 ASAP.
2) Ask China to expedite the J-31
3) Join some SAM program and build low, medium, and high altitude locally.
4) Join local production of a decent attack helicopter.
5) Increase the number of fast attack boats for coastal defences.
6) Increase the number of Submarines from the planed 13 to 20.
7) Try to purchase Corvettes from Russia with TOT.
8) Make a wall on the Western Boarder with Afghanistan.
9) Upgrade the radar systems.

@Manticore can you change the topic of the post to:

"Ramifications For Pakistan Against The Indian Dream Of Becoming A Super Power"

I don't know how much capability Rafale will bring in but when INS Vikrant will be commissioned IN would get an additional order ~45 aircrafts those will be at least Mig29K or F/A SH or Rafale M, so that will be bigger concern if Pakistan want to match. I'm 100% sure that can't be delayed as carrier is almost ready.

No 2 is very hard if the program is successful then only can think of expediting. Number 8 is so impractical that I do not know t laugh or cry. Number 6 is financially hard I can under stand maintain 13 but going to 20 without proper Air and support in the waters is looking for trouble not to mention it is economically not practical. 11-15 is optimum number of sub provided 3 -6 have second strike capability.

I don't know why do you want more & more submarines, AIK most of the navies have 2 to 1 if not 3 to 1 ration for surface ships to submarine ratio evn China which have largest submarine force in numbers.
I don't when submarines have to face P8I or ASW helicopters how many ships needed stop them, aircrafts can be intercepted by aircrafts.

 

[Oracle 33]

The game changer is not 36 Rafales (which is more for China) but if India gets the S-400 which will make deep strikes into India more risky for PAF.

 

[Hell hound]

sit tight and keep saving for the fifth gen aircraft as we don't have enough money to invest in 5 gen and a new 4.5 gen fighter.there is no need to go all soviet union here we can't outspend them and there is no need to do it as we have nukes which gives us MAD capability in case of large full scale wars.
its not like that there is no qualitative or quantitative gap between iaf and paf today.they own 272 su 30 mki so 36 rafale make little impact on the power equation between Pakistan and india .that's why i am recommending that we skip 4.5 gen altogether and aim for 5 gen(when available) they will be the true game changer. meanwhile induct some potent mid to long range sams during the 5 gen waiting period.
troll mode on:want to see the Indian reaction when they crash their first rafale .troll mode off

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

From Strictly Financial Side and Minimum B ing perspective:
Going with Mirage route , pick up 200 units and making them Thunder Block 2 standard , is more logical. These planes are available in Abundance with old avionics people don't know how to maintain them. Pakistan Airforce , not only fixes the units it has ability to REMAKE them brand new.

Also we make 90-99% repairs of Mirage platform in Pakistan so it is a Jewel in our Air-force (Under appreciated)
We one of 2 countries that can keep the platform running

• Just needs Next Generation Avionics (Avionics/Radar/ HUD / Helmet / Pod)
• Engineering base is in Pakistan
  
• Put high end Chinese Missile on the platform , it will become potent as any platform

Every thing else on plane we make in Pakistan - ALREADY

Mirage units can be picked up in market for 2% of cost of RAFALE
and we already have every thing for this platform

With new avionics package / BVR missile / radar / HUD & Helmet

Not to mention cheap purchase in market we can enhance the Airforce rather cheap
instead of buying 100 million planes

From Strictly Financial Side Thunders make sense:

• Platform matures block 1 to Block 3 , price wise ideal defense platform potent and sufficient
• 100% correct decision
• Block 3 will be a energy Shot in arm for Airforce

We can always make small upgrades with F16 C/D or seek 4 squadrons of F18
from financial prespective


Otherwise going for Brand new deal or platform is ideal if we have cash
> Sukhoi -35
> J11
>F16 C/D
>F18 etc


Many folks assume Pakistan is Afghanistan or Nepal - they don't really understand the Engineering base in country ^_^

 

[posedion]

Many in PDF are of opinion that SU35 is a best magic bullet against the Rafale what they tend to forget is India will start upgrading 270 odd aircraft from 2018 to Su 35 ++ standard

What answer has PAF

May be investing heavily in SAM is the way and how are u going to counter S400 system other than childish clouding it with drones or whatever

I mean how will ur fighters operate in a 4.5 +++ arena combined with the coverage of S400 system

And trust this gap is just a start what's coming American will just .............

 

[MilSpec]

1--What is PAF's priority [ Land defence,Sea denial, deep attacks with heavy bombs or smart ammunitions ] ?

PAF's priority remains the same, Minimum credible defence against India. This is no different than introduction of Mirage 2000 in the late 80's with Mig29 as a frontline fighter. It is similar with Rafale coming into the equation and it's relevance is even lower because MKI poses a similar operational challenge.

From PAF's perspective and healthy mix of JF17's and F16's combined would be more than enough to mitigate most of air defence challenges with Blk52 and future AESA upgrades to F16 and the JF17 can be more than enough to meet challenges posed by newer IAF platforms

2--Can jf-17 completely meet those demands/doctrine even after aesa/ifr probe/composites /strengthened structure/tweaked engine?

Yes and no. Given the requirements and the operational mandate of the PAF, Jf17 with a F16 combination with upgrades and continuous improvements can mitigate the requirements. It will be a uphill task if the operational mandate of PAF changes from denial of air superiorty to gain partial air superiority in pockets of Indian airspace.

3--If not what are the options and possible numbers? Is the cost of buying/ training/maintenance/spare parts/ years to build strategy/ availability rate worth the hassle?

There are two possible options J31 as popular choice of the forum and the j20 which I think would be game changer.

J31 is the optimal addition if the PAF mandate of denying air superiority to India remains the same.

If the mandate of the PAF changes, which is the aspirations of most Pakistanis where PAF would want to take the fight away from it's airspace into the Indian airspace, then J31 doesn't fit the bill, let me propose the J20 platform would be a more potent albeit slightly more expensive system or a CFT variant of the J31 with extended range.

Engine: The J31's use the same Klimov RD 93 engines as of now on the test bed which may or may not be replaced by a chinese variant. Compare the J31 ranges with the Mig 35/ Mig29 OVT and Mig 29 K which uses the most recent variant of the RD33 series - RD33 MK, similar 17.5 Ton loaded/Gross weight, the ferry range of the Mig 35 is 3100Km with 3 Ext Drop tanks, whereas the J31 is being advertised as a 4000 Km Ferry range.Given that both aircrafts are of similar empty weight around 11-11.5 tons and have a 17.5 ton loaded weight, there is a good chance that both carry similar internal fuel, thus the combat range of the J31 in stealth configuration might not be1200 Km as advertised, rather around 500-600 Kms similar to that of a F16. That would put the idea of deep strike into a pickle.

Airframe: AVIC says that a lot of additive mfg was used in the test bed, and hence could not be dis-assembled during the transportation for testing. As the production models are out to 2019, if any of the RP techniques make it into the production model it will be a nightmare of maintenance and fitment. In addition the airframe was reported to bleed a lot of energy in it's first appearance, hopefully by the production variant those issues might be resolved.

4--S300 copies vs introduction of another 4.5 gen fighter

Air defence needs to be pro-active rather than reactive, if Pakistan decides to implement A/D regimes based on developments in the neighborhood, it will forever play catch up rather than be prepared for an contingencies. From the Air defence perspective, it needs a strategic roadmap against not just against india but even worst case scenarios like US too. It needs to understand threat potential and coverages it needs in each sector and needs to develop a comprehensive procurement and development mix based on the resources available to it over the next decade with short and long term gap analysis.

5--Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy another 4.5 gen fighter and develop tactics in the meanwhile

Rather work on the J31 (Pak specific or J20) now, instead of waiting for 10 years.

6--To Indian posters, what would you suggest PAF do OTHER than bolstering economy and admitting that India is a super power

Have a comprehensive strategic plan, which you already do, and keep steadfast on it.

7--Is the replacement of 190 old fighters with a BVR capable light fighter sufficient keeping in view Pakistan's economy?

Yes it absolutely is and in my opinion JF 17 is a freakin magic bullet in that perspective,

Looking at the operating (cap+op) budget of PAF, and the size of the defence budget of Pakistan, what PAF has achieved with the JF17 program is nothing short of brilliant.
One single multirole system to replace 3 platforms (5 variants) Nachang A-5, Mirage III/V, and F7 and F7PG.... If anything the men behind the project should be hailed as National Heroes of Pakistan. At 1/5th of the price, they have successfully done what a 100 million dollar aircraft is struggling to do for the US....

Additionally , JF17 doesn't just replace the aging fleet of dedicated legacy jets, but creates a surprise element within a F16 strike package. One thing we often tend to forget is India-Pakistan border is Huge, looking at the Map we sometimes make the folly of loosing the perspective. A Lo-Lo strike package of JF17 can penetrate Indian defenses along hi-lo F16/Jf17 mix, all IAF forward bases are at risk, now JF 17 much like the F16 lets you use the same platform withn a strike package to be armed with a Air Sup config/ a strike config/ and combination config. That is a game changer, much like what the F16 brought to the table.

Next is ability to tweak open arch com bus and make it read Link 16 tags, JF17 gives pakistan open architecture mission computers, which can be immensly helpful to integrate both Western/Russian/indigenous munitions. You can do whatever you want to do with the systems and know that your on engineers can fix it without any issues. The system provides to capability to serve as test bed for engineering projects, improvement projects, having control over the Bill of material structure, you can change, optimize, re-engineer and validate different materials, different actuators/servos/valves/MFD's/control systems/mission comps/cooling systems/radar/flirs/ EW suite/maws/rwr's, on the component level you can qualify different suppliers to make the aircraft more reliable, cheaper, have lesser down time/ easier maintenance, change local suppliers/ increase local content and more...Which other system in the history of Pakistan has provided such options to Pakistan?

8--J10 and JF-17 may have similar capability but they DONT have SAME capability. Are the J-10 an ideal replacement for the mirage squadrons?

No they are not, and PAF brass has already selected J17 as a replacement for the mirage 3/5, There is no whatsoever reason to second guess one of the most potent airforce's in the world.

9--Is there any chance of getting reliable subsystems for jft from the French?

Depends, first of - is there a pressing need for french sub-systems, are Chinese russian, italian , american lacking capabilities? Right tool for the right job, irrespective of branding.

10--Other than numbers, what capability rafale brings to IAF, which they wont exploit in the su30 including its naval role

Electronic low observability,
Low level penetration,
Low operational cost,
AESA capable radar,
Multi-warhead BVRAAM
High speed Maneuverability,

11-- Importance of loiter time in war

Well lasting longer in Air or otherwise is always a plus.

12--Are destroyers, submarines, helicopters, s300 derivatives and cruise missiles the answer?

No they aren't, but surely they will help in a conflict.

@Oscar @Manticore @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @MastanKhan

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Manticore
Sir,

beyond what @MilSpec Sir said, i would add

If its about a defensive doctrine then

• More JF17s with constant upgradation plan/newer Blocks
• Sophisticated radar network to cover all kind of ingress particularly low altitude ones (a specialty of Rafale)
• Quick Reaction SAM network with focus on indigenous efforts to bolster the seeker technology.
• MRSAM network with Range upto 70 km for all aerial targets with higher probability of kill along with acceptable ECCM capability.
• Focus on NG Jamming network and increase the EW aspect,
• diversifying into more air fields in various locations for better coverage and survival benefits.
• Focus on shield aspect.

if its about offensive doctrine then

• Stop over relying on F16s.. They are good but changing times states they are just above average especially when they go against the likes of Super MKI of 35 standard and Rafales. and newer block upgrades beyond Blk 52 will not be easy to access nor USA is any body's friend to permanently depend upon.
• JF17 blocks needs expediting and more resource allocation. Technology off the shelf needs focus. Round them up quickly.
• in any event of conflict, AWACS, AAR and major Radar sites, aerial fields and stationed combat jets would be first casualty. so,
  • more airfields, runways and make more targets to employ survivability aspect
  • the radar sites gone, AwACS gone implies, you require some of your jets to act as Mini AWACS which the present setup cannot as all would be engaged and nothing to spare to act in this formation along with defensive measures around such missions.
  • Dont depent on satellite, consider also ASAT capabilities of India.
  • AAR gone implies loitering and mission time decrease, so a medium/heavy category need is a must.
• Defensive doctrine focus should remain prudently.
• A longer range stand off missile for taking out Indian AWACS is a must. The present capability in term of precision, range and speed is not enough.

A case to wonder about is suppose we rule out the following jets

• More F16s
• Su35s or Russian jets
• New Chinese 5th Gen Jet

In such a scenario, whats the back up plan?
A wise and long term decision would be to join Turkey 5th gen program TAI FX now itself and contribute with smaller funding but more technical staff to work out a deal for future.

Another could be Pakistan herself launches a new 4.5th/5th Gen program.. You can design your plane and try and seek the maximum off the shelf stuff..An example is Gripen program where most stuff are non indigenous and from the market. Utilise the RD-33/93 family and build your own medium/heavy plane. It will give a big boost to your own MIC. Its a long term plan but its doable. You can part finance it with getting some funding from partners in various forum who may like to be eventual customers. The plan should be that its complementary to Turkey TAI FX program.


The dependency on either the American jets like F16 and Chinese Jets for future may not be the best path. Perhaps its a god sent opportunity where Pakistan can start their own program for a good domestic jet of medium/heavy category.It may take long time but then its the best choice for the country, its MIC and its doctrine.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well our Mirage platform only became stagnant, since we started the JF17 thunder platform
It became stagnant becasue we ourselves choose it to become as such

A plane can continuously evolve
Example :

• F15 Became F-15SE
  
• F16 evolved into F16 C/D or F16 UAE
• Gripen evolved into Gripen NG

However , the engineering base we have for Mirage is on par with Thunder. Why should the Engineering base for MRF should be lost ? When the same engineers can help bring in another 200 planes from open market. Let us use their knowledge

It makes 100% logical sense. We just need to match the Technology improvements with platform, if we are missing 2-5% air-frame items , just manufacture it with collaboration

No major Engineering Training would be needed or minimal

Engineering base > any 1 single plane even if it is F-35

Between 2000 and 2016, obviously the Avionics market has boomed in China / Pakistan world wide, and also new technologies have emerged.

Biggest factor , Mirage units (Old , lets call it Block 1) are undeniably available , as people don't have understanding to maintain them or keep them flying. We have that "Engineering base"

• 1%-2% Cost compared to 100 Million Rafael , for procurement cost , then obviously the upgrades we will do will be done locally Made in Pakistan initiative (Already proven)

Cost of RAFALE :

• 100 Million

Cost of Mirage NG project :

• 200k-500k (Initial Purchase even more cheaper)
• 12 Million (Next Gen Radar / Avionics/ HUD / Helmet)
• 2 Million (Targeting POD)
• MLU'ed at Mirage Rebuild Factory servicing and QA check (1 Million)

• 3 Billion investment will give us 360 Mirage Modern New Generation fleet vs odd 8 planes we get here and there

[The cost of radar or avionics would be less now that we have done bulk of research already with Thunder platform]

• Next Gen BVR missiles can be procured in abundance with new Radar with Large Range , which should effectively increase potency of the jet

Keep our DELTA wing flying, if Air-frame is old , rebuild brand new one locally we paid for old frame, it is just metal work , we already have the structural copy in hand. Put a local tender for company to make it in Pakistan

> We have 160 Mirages
> Purchase 200 Units in Open market (DIRT DIRT DIRT Cheap)
> Launch a Next Generation Avionics & Radar Initiative in Pakistan , PUT THE DAMN
MONEY HERE, local R&D
> Add in BVR from China Top of Line - get rid of low range shit use it some where
> Get Pods from Turkey /China / France
> Retro fit the Helmet technology we are making from Thunder in to Mirage

Collective force of 360 Units should keep Teja in check

Thunder's Growth:

• This is already going at its own designated pace and mile stone 100% correct decision
  
• Block 3 promises to be awesome
  
• Getting all the necessary updates we planed 20 years ago
• Grow it as per our need 150 , 250 , 300 , 500 as needed

**Make sure the 360 Delta Wing (Next GEN Mirage) & 150-500 Thunders
(Can talk to Chinese AWAC and share data) - Chinese AWAC platform is
here to stay. And he 360 Units should help maintain any Air defense needs



However if we are filthy rich $$$$$$$$$ , I mean really filthy rich $$$$$$

> By all means get the troubled F-35
> Sukhoi -35
> Typhoon
> Rafale
> F18
> F16 etc


2-3 planes or 8 planes is not going to cut it

I would rather have 360 Mirage (Next Gen Upgrade) , plus 150-200 Thunder (Block 2-3) in air
with BVR (Classified Range)

• Then fly 4-5 purchased planes with the most amazing video game like display

 

[sathya]

From Strictly Financial Side and Minimum B ing perspective:
Going with Mirage route , pick up 200 units and making them Thunder Block 2 standard , is more logical. These planes are available in Abundance with old avionics people don't know how to maintain them. Pakistan Airforce , not only fixes the units it has ability to REMAKE them brand new.

Also we make 90-99% repairs of Mirage platform in Pakistan so it is a Jewel in our Air-force (Under appreciated)
We one of 2 countries that can keep the platform running

• Just needs Next Generation Avionics (Avionics/Radar/ HUD / Helmet / Pod)
• Engineering base is in Pakistan
  
• Put high end Chinese Missile on the platform , it will become potent as any platform

Every thing else on plane we make in Pakistan - ALREADY

Mirage units can be picked up in market for 2% of cost of RAFALE
and we already have every thing for this platform

With new avionics package / BVR missile / radar / HUD & Helmet

Not to mention cheap purchase in market we can enhance the Airforce rather cheap
instead of buying 100 million planes

From Strictly Financial Side Thunders make sense:

• Platform matures block 1 to Block 3 , price wise ideal defense platform potent and sufficient
• 100% correct decision
• Block 3 will be a energy Shot in arm for Airforce

We can always make small upgrades with F16 C/D or seek 4 squadrons of F18
from financial prespective


Otherwise going for Brand new deal or platform is ideal if we have cash
> Sukhoi -35
> J11
>F16 C/D
>F18 etc


Many folks assume Pakistan is Afghanistan or Nepal - they don't really understand the Engineering base in country ^_^

Thinking to get French weapons at dirt cheap cost ?
.. It will be the opposite.

This scenario is just like India against china..
You can't match it, better to make peace..

Other than that, increase the number of missiles
Increase the nukes , as dangerous it may be. Still a deterrent .

Replace your older squads of fighter with new generations, more net centric .
Increase your surveillance systems and anti air batteries.

Rafale until now it's only 36 ordered, 18 in east and 18 in west
So by 2019 Pakistan will be facing only 18 Rafales.. And probably 2-3 less of older squads because of retirement .

India will be facing shortage of fighter numbers.
Pakistan will be facing quality of fighters.

Rafale may sound as big success, for me it just trading money
180 Rafales for 40 billion$ means , we losing out money to develop our country..

That's the other side of this deal.
That's the burden , you also will have face, if you want matching it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The paf has BLUNDERED thru for the last 26 plus years blindly having no sense of urgency or direction.

Sadly their position has been strenghtened by their apologists on this forum and in pakistan who are in milions and millions.

Instead of putting the air chief in the hot seat in front of the TV----every one wantsa to apologize that the paf has no money----and these kids and adults are clueless at how much money the paf has squandered away.

It is just like someone raped your daughter----and before the criminal answers to the inquisitor---you start to justify why he raped you daughter---.

So---to all the members on this board---who have an excuses think again---let men in Blue talk and make their excuses on their own---.


It is very thoughtless to state that the JF 17 is equal to the J10----. The aesa / IRST equipped J10C is more potent that the BLK52 that we have.

And our drama queen the JF17---which was supposedly to be like 80% of the f16 BLK52 has yet to reach the 80% status even with the BLK2---.

A honda civic will always be inferior to a Honda Accord---and same with a Toyota Corolla to a Toyota Camry---.

It has almost been 5 years since the delay to mmrca started----. If the J10's had been procured at that time---paf would have had some serious power positioning and effectiveness to show as well.

Posters who talk about getting the J31---do not understand that the J31 cannot be operated successfully without a complimentary heavy side kick.

The utility of the stealth is as such----they will fly and get close to the enemy as much as they can without their presence being felt and will have control over the missiles being carried by their assets----. The stealth aircraft would control the missile launch without locking the target in the general direction and as the missile gets real close---the missile lock will be initiated---.

Similiarly it will have the ability to launch other assets of the complimentary aircraft.

This complimentary aircraft will have to carry enough resource / load to make good use of the opportunity----that would be provided thru a very narrow window----.

Just an example---you have 30 seconds window to break a door---what would you rather have---a 40 Kg hammer or a 100Kg hammer.

Now---you need to ask the same question----why does the army sticks to the .308----rather than the 5.56----.

The JF17 is the 5.56 of the aircraft----. So---if on one hand---in our arena---we are using the .308 and we know that it works and 5.56 is too small---then why in the other arena---facing similar enemy we are using a 5.56!

Well our Mirage platform only became stagnant, since we started the JF17 thunder platform
It became stagnant becasue we ourselves choose it to become as such

A plane can continuously evolve
Example :

• F15 Became F-15SE
  
• F16 evolved into F16 C/D or F16 UAE
• Gripen evolved into Gripen NG

However , the engineering base we have for Mirage is on par with Thunder. Why should the Engineering base for MRF should be lost ? When the same engineers can help bring in another 200 planes from open market. Let us use their knowledge

It makes 100% logical sense. We just need to match the Technology improvements with platform, if we are missing 2-5% air-frame items , just manufacture it with collaboration

No major Engineering Training would be needed or minimal

Engineering base > any 1 single plane even if it is F-35

Between 2000 and 2016, obviously the Avionics market has boomed in China / Pakistan world wide, and also new technologies have emerged.

Biggest factor , Mirage units (Old , lets call it Block 1) are undeniably available , as people don't have understanding to maintain them or keep them flying. We have that "Engineering base"

• 1%-2% Cost compared to 100 Million Rafael , for procurement cost , then obviously the upgrades we will do will be done locally Made in Pakistan initiative (Already proven)

Cost of RAFALE :

• 100 Million

Cost of Mirage NG project :

• 200k-500k (Initial Purchase)
• 12 Million (Next Gen Radar / Avionics/ HUD / Helmet)
• 2 Million (Targeting POD)
• MLU'ed at Mirage Rebuild Factory servicing and QA check (1 Million)

[The cost of radar or avionics would be less now that we have done bulk of research already with Thunder platform]

• Next Gen BVR missiles can be procured in abundance with new Radar with Large Range , which should effectively increase potency of the jet

Keep our DELTA wing flying, if Air-frame is old , rebuild brand new one locally we paid for old frame, it is just metal work , we already have the structural copy in hand. Put a local tender for company to make it in Pakistan

> We have 160 Mirages
> Purchase 200 Units in Open market (DIRT DIRT DIRT Cheap)
> Launch a Next Generation Avionics & Radar Initiative in Pakistan , PUT THE DAMN
MONEY HERE, local R&D
> Add in BVR from China Top of Line - get rid of low range shit use it some where
> Get Pods from Turkey /China / France
> Retro fit the Helmet technology we are making from Thunder in to Mirage

Collective force of 360 Units should keep Teja in check

Thunder's Growth:

• This is already going at its own designated pace and mile stone 100% correct decision
  
• Block 3 promises to be awesome
  
• Getting all the necessary updates we planed 20 years ago
• Grow it as per our need 150 , 250 , 300 , 500 as needed

**Make sure the 360 Delta Wing (Next GEN Mirage) & 150-500 Thunders
(Can talk to Chinese AWAC and share data) - Chinese AWAC platform is
here to stay. And he 360 Units should help maintain any Air defense needs



However if we are filthy rich $$$$$$$$$ , I mean really filthy rich $$$$$$

> By all means get the troubled F-35
> Sukhoi -35
> Typhoon
> Rafale
> F18
> F16 etc


2-3 planes or 8 planes is not going to cut it

I would rather have 360 Mirage (Next Gen Upgrade) , plus 150-200 Thunder (Block 2-3) in air
with BVR (Classified Range)

• Then fly 4-5 purchased planes with the most amazing video game like display

Hi,

The days of the mirage 3 and 5 are long gone----their frames did not have ability to be modified----.

OTOH---the JF17 does----that is why I have stated many a times----if paf cannot get anything and it hates the J10---then it needs to make the JF17 around 10-20 % larger---to be of appropriate utility---.

Appropriate utility size of the aircraft is to carry 6 BVr's and 4 wvr---or 2 AShM's like the CM400AKG and 2 two to three fuel tanks----or carry a load around 6500---8500KG's---or be able to carry 2 Hatf ALCM's---and have the ability of a combat radius of 1250 km---refuelling capabilites and aesa and irst equipped.

So---with all the man power that is available to paf and at chengdu----this is not a momentous task---. The good thing is that they do not need to modify the fuselage for the engine.

As I have mentioned before---the Gripen has provided a simple solution for a physical upgrade that can be performed in less than a year at a nominal cost.

Move the wheels out---install taller wheels---increase the size of the wing a tad bit and strengthen the frame---allow fuel storing capability along the side of the fuselage---change the desing of the fuel tanks by making them squarish to carry more fuel----and there is no need for conformal tanks---.

 

[Zain Malik]

herd
həːd/
noun

1. 1.
   a large group of animals,

Hahahaha well this is over strictness......

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

@MastanKhan

Well I beg to differ I believe that you can always keep a machine in Top shape provided you have a crew that knows what they are doing (Engineering) - we live in the age of 3D imaging and Industrial innovation to create a structural clone, a clone with lighter composite

There is no difference between delta wing new planes , vs what a Mirage (delta design itself) can become once it gets a Next Generation Upgrade , if we go to pick up Squadrons and squadrons of Mirage. The market is saturated . No one wants these planes

We are the only nation apart from France that knows how to "Work on these" and not only work on it we actually can build it if we wanted

Our competitive Advantage is the Mirage Rebuilt Factory (We operated it for 15-20 years)

• We need to MLU our 160 Mirage fleet with (Next Generation Standard)
• Purhase 200 units in open market (DIRT CHEAP) and apply the same MLU / Next Generation Standard upgrade
• Get the old Avionics out , Get rid of ROSE , PURPLE, SCARLET what ever bring in Next Generation Standard.

Next Generation Standard:

• High quality Radar (China )
  
• Higher quality Avionics then Block 3 Thunder or comparable (China/Pakistan)
  
• Get in Helmet based targeting Tech integrated (Pakistan/China)
  
• BVR missile of Enhanced classified range(China)
• Targeting POD (Turkey / China / France)

> 360 MLU'ed Mirage should keep the TEJA in Check
> F16 C/D / Thunder Block 3 Can focus on other roles, can focus on Air-Air role


Delta Design is a delta design but one the key areas we can certain improve is the Technological strength of "What we have"

For us it makes sense to keep Mirage flying , with a Quality MLU upgrade on plane considering we have a factory for MLU which we do have , and the Technology partners (Which we have)

• Fully Serviced (160 old , 200 purchased) - Technologically Enhanced for just 2.5 to 3 billion for 360 Lethal birds

A) Add best radar (Available in market)
B) Add best BVR missile (CHINA)
C) Full integration to work with AWACs that we have
D) Enhanced targeting pod / Helmet targeting technology
E) Data share with other planes in Air-force

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

People in this thread are suggesting a very expensive shopping list of latest weapons. They should also try to keep in mind the budget with which we have to manage our defence expenditures.

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

Forget J10 bcoz both J 10 and F 16 fall in same category. to be honest, Su 35and j 10 cant counter Rafael. Both JF17 and Gripen NG also falls in same category ( I mean after future upgrades it will become equal to Gripen). 5th Gen aircraft will take lot of time. Keeping in view current scenario and PAF requirements, the only aircraft which is on par Rafael and also suits PAF needs is EF TYPHON . PAF should induct EFT in small numbers to counter Rafael. if we join hands with Saudis, then money will be no issue.

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

don't ruin their sand castles

It doesn't cost a dime to dream!

Well said. Every body needs a dose of reality once in a while to keep the feet firmly on the ground.