OPPORTUNITY - Pentagon suspends weapon deliveries to Iraq, leaving Iraqi F-16 fleet in the air

[Shabi1]

@Hodor @airomerix

In terms of operating differences and cockpit layout and features, how different are M2k compared to the Mirages PAF uses ?

The reason to ask this is, in a hypothetical scenario, where PAF decides to somehow gather up 2 squadron strength of retired Mirage 2000s from others, how much time would it take for us to operate and get used to it as compared to our own Mirages.

So, if there are less differences, time taken will be less and vice versa. However, I don’t see such happening coz some people will go crying to france...

Operating Mirage 2000s is not an issue for PAF as they've out sourced personal to its ME operators so it has experience with the type but its too late now and the ship has sailed for inducting any Mirage 2000s, as alternatives available. Doesn't make sense to spend money on the support infrastructure and weapon packages when PAF could simply buy J-10Cs if it really wanted deltas.

Would be more feasible to spend on induction of used F-16s and sending them through MLUs. PAC KAMRA also has it's hands full as well.

With regards to Iraqi F-16s, they are similar to PAF F-16s (Blk-52s) but lack some AA capability (can't fire Aim-120) which is not to difficult for the manufacturer to rectify.

Pakistan's purchases from US are on hold because Pakistan wants US to finance any purchase from the reimbursements Pakistan is owed from the WOT. The US doesn't want to release those funds and wants Pakistan to pay itself. So if a settlement reached we could see Pakistan buying things from them again, its just a negotiation deadlock. I hope both sides can agree to a compromise eventually if we want to see PAF getting more F-16s.

US will probably keep them in storage and induct them for own use if no alternate buyers found.

 

[hussain0216]

Bro,

I see this matter in the context of protecting own investment and what is good for a state at large. Iraq have invested a great sum in buying these aircraft and creating infrastructure to manage them - in the billions of USD territory.

If Iraq is to buy a new aircraft on par with F-16 Block 50/52 even in theory, it will have to expend additional amount of billions of USD for the needful.

High quality weapons are not cheap - there is no such thing as a Rs.30,000/- gadget being on par with Rs.100,000/- gadget in functions and performance. Never! Not even in the case of "Made in China." Brochure specifications are worthless because a gadget will not show its true capacity until it stressed.

Now Iraqi Shia politicians are telling US to get out because they killed an IRGC commander - Americans are understandably pissed. Bear in mind that Americans have played a vital role in helping Iraq overcome dreadful ISIS movement. ISIS would have eaten Iraqi Shia groups alive if not for American and Iraqi military on the frontlines.

However, Iraqi Shia groups are an incredibly ungrateful lot. They are closet Iranian stooges which is really shameful. They should pay attention to needs of Iraq only.

Iraqi Sunni and Kurd whose homes ISIS ravaged, are understandably pissed as well. They want to make sure that FITNA of ISIS does not return to the region. Entire Iraq should be onboard in this matter.

Imagine a TTP situation in Pakistan wherein a province is indifferent to this menace. Other provinces would be branding this one traitorous or undeclared brothers of TTP.

My point is that Iraq needs to protect its investments and care about its own interests on a national level. Iraqi Shia groups should be ashamed of themselves; they will steer Iraq towards the path of utter RUIN. They are not alone in making decisions for Iraq; they have to work with Iraqi Sunni and Kurd over national issues.

Iraqi Shia groups risk alienating not only USA but Iraqi Sunni and Kurd as well with their utter foolishness. They are utterly deluded if they think that they can bully USA into submission with blessings of Iran. They will prefer to tear the country asunder instead instead of gifting it to Iran on a silver plate, given Iranian motives. A grounded F-16 fleet is the least of worries. Iran is an absolute beneficiary of chaos in Iraq; a strong united Iraq is bad news for Iran.

Now is the right time for Iraq to consolidate its gains over ISIS and build a national consensus over its interests. Now is not the time to bow down to Iran and tell US to pack its bags and leave. There is appropriate time for every decision. Iraq needs a strong military to manage its security in the long-term. Disbanding Iraqi PMUs would be a good start.

Being RATIONAL is the point.

Let's face it, the U.S should maybe have thought of all this prior to committing assassinations on Iraqi soil

The very fact that billions in Iraqi investment is at the point of becoming useless unless they allow the U.S ability to use it's soil for its own nefarious interests

Tells me everything I want to know

Again a great weapons system is worthless if you can't use it

 

[Sine Nomine]

US has officials deputed on PAF bases housing F-16 who are officially responsible for security of technology of F-16 so F-16 transfer will never go un-noticed. By the way, why make it secretive ? Coz USA won't allow transfer? Then negotiate.

Make it public when they land in Pakistan.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

A variant of R-77 has more range than meteor. No kill zone matters.

You probably talking about K77. Yes it has but India doesnt have it now. Meteor is said to have the highest NEZ.

Search and let me know too. i would be happy if JF-17 can fire Ra ád.

According to @airomerix Thunders can

 

[StormBreaker]

Mirage 2000 comes in picture between the time frame of retiring Mirage III and operating the aircraft that is delivered out of Azm. That time frame needs to be addressed with good capability, not a handicap.

Hoping that Azm has catered for Ra ád

Bhaijan, thanks for the reply.

Just a general knowledge question for myself.

What edge does deltas like Mirages have over normal wing config like F-16/Thunders.?

I know it has got to do with altitude and Low profile as well as better operability and maneuvering.

Could you explain me all this in bold and their differences in delta and normal wings with hor stabs.

Also, the reason was, the general doctrine or way PAF operates with regards to Cross border A2G missions as well as mountainous regions and how Mirage 2000 would fit better than J-10 (canard delta).

Also, why does canard delta not fit in all this? (Not referencing J-10 or M2K but just a general question)

Sorry for too many questions but can’t find the answers to all these since good posts are buried deep in random threads so no where to learn this.

 

[Nasr]

I am amazed at the Pakistani mentality when it comes to the poisonous F-16s. The way Pakistanis leap up in their seats at the first sign of F-16s becoming available, leads me to believe that we are either habitually bound to stupidity or something else. People tend to forget that Pakistan was sanctioned for decades by Zionist-America because Pakistan chose to become a Nuclear Power. Pakistan Air Force's F-16s were canabalized to keep the fleet air worthy, sometimes even not flying at all. During Kargil, Pakistan Air Force deliberately did not engage the indian runts, simply because we had no spare parts for the fabled fighter-jets. People also forget that Pakistan had "paid in full" for a further 28 Vipers, but were refused delivery and ended up languishing in the American so-called "Boneyard."

Pakistanis, more so, than Pakistan Air Force, need to get off the Viper drug-induced comatose state.

Unless Pakistan Air Force, Intelligence Services or other in the Pakistan Military establishment have managed to find a way to accumulate large cache of Viper parts. Thumping your chests about Vipers in Pakistan Air Force is beyond stupidity, it is buffoonery.

 

[AMRAAM]

I am amazed at the Pakistani mentality when it comes to the poisonous F-16s. The way Pakistanis leap up in their seats at the first sign of F-16s becoming available, leads me to believe that we are either habitually bound to stupidity or something else. People tend to forget that Pakistan was sanctioned for decades by Zionist-America because Pakistan chose to become a Nuclear Power. Pakistan Air Force's F-16s were canabalized to keep the fleet air worthy, sometimes even not flying at all. During Kargil, Pakistan Air Force deliberately did not engage the indian runts, simply because we had no spare parts for the fabled fighter-jets. People also forget that Pakistan had "paid in full" for a further 28 Vipers, but were refused delivery and ended up languishing in the American so-called "Boneyard."

Pakistanis, more so, than Pakistan Air Force, need to get off the Viper drug-induced comatose state.

Unless Pakistan Air Force, Intelligence Services or other in the Pakistan Military establishment have managed to find a way to accumulate large cache of Viper parts. Thumping your chests about Vipers in Pakistan Air Force is beyond stupidity, it is buffoonery.

You cannot understand this feeling. F-16 is a love. The most beautiful fighter jet ever produced.

 

[PakFactor]

You cannot understand this feeling. F-16 is a love. The most beautiful fighter jet ever produced.

Beauty doesn't win the fight when it can't fly under sanctions.

We really need to diversify away from Western sanctions prone equipment.

Ramp up JF-17 BLKIII, couple of J-10s and stop gap like FC-31 until AZAM materializes. But also keep battery testing and hammering our planes to find any flaws and upgrades that need to be done.

I am amazed at the Pakistani mentality when it comes to the poisonous F-16s. The way Pakistanis leap up in their seats at the first sign of F-16s becoming available, leads me to believe that we are either habitually bound to stupidity or something else. People tend to forget that Pakistan was sanctioned for decades by Zionist-America because Pakistan chose to become a Nuclear Power. Pakistan Air Force's F-16s were canabalized to keep the fleet air worthy, sometimes even not flying at all. During Kargil, Pakistan Air Force deliberately did not engage the indian runts, simply because we had no spare parts for the fabled fighter-jets. People also forget that Pakistan had "paid in full" for a further 28 Vipers, but were refused delivery and ended up languishing in the American so-called "Boneyard."

Pakistanis, more so, than Pakistan Air Force, need to get off the Viper drug-induced comatose state.

Unless Pakistan Air Force, Intelligence Services or other in the Pakistan Military establishment have managed to find a way to accumulate large cache of Viper parts. Thumping your chests about Vipers in Pakistan Air Force is beyond stupidity, it is buffoonery.

My feeling is the same -- right now the F-16 pilots might be wearing glasses and showing off but when sanctions bite they'll all be stuck in the cafe room.

 

[Samlee]

A Better Opportunity Would Be To Offer JF 17 Thunder To Iraq

 

[925boy]

The opportunity lies in selling them JF-17 once their F-16s become non-operational soon.

Buying the F-16s was the initial mistake IRaq made. Why would Iraq do something so stupid, especially with a country(US) the IRaqi govt knew from day 1 was responsible for the disaster Iraq is today?? makes no sense- put alot of trust(national seceurity)in the hand of the traitor(US).

IF i was in teh Iraqi govt, i would not buy strategic military systems from the US, because of things like this. Buy from reliable partners (Russia, China) who will keep selling, maintaining and upgrading your weapon systems..smfh

Apparently Iraqis will always choose US over Iran.
Iraqi Anti-gov't Protesters Rally Against Iran Strike

Only you can believe this even though its irrelevant and false(reality wise). LOOOL. "Choice" does not exist for you if you dont have leverage/are disadvantaged in the situation. nuff said.

Yes, can get your point. However it's also because Iran has alot of influence over them, so some Iraqi's shia's officials in the government and many of their militias are more loyal to Tehran, so obviously they often try to push the US out of Iraq since their patrons in Tehran demand just that.
However there are also many in Iraq who are also deeply anti Iran and would rather have closer ties with the U.S . So Iraq is caught between two sides hence the conflict and destabilisation when these two camps clash and fight for influence.

In the long term, there is NO chance US will dominate or influence Iraq more than Iran. that day is never coming, but its ok to dream and think of it.

I already believe Iran has accessed those Iraqi F-16s.

What imminent threats does iraq have except for those residing inside which require just A2G role ?

US govt? i'm amazed you didnt think of this already because the US govt will be in retaliation mode after getting kicked out of Iraq. even Iraqi parliament has said it knows US can/will "reboot" ISIS after leaving Iraq.

Considering the threat they still face from Daesh

which the US military wasnt really helping Iraqi govt eradicate(and definitely not completely,cuz that was the US"s excuse for staying in Iraq).

(as well as defending their sovereignty from Iran),

and what about resentful US? US will get kicked out of Iraq and will want to retaliate. you're biased bro!

Also, if you believe Iraq can effectively "defend its sovereignty from Iran", then that tells me you are living in the old days. that day is never coming. From now till when we die, Iran is in Iraq for good.

 

[SQ8]

US did sell us F-16 support equipment which was previously destined for Iraq back in the early 80s.

But Iraq giving us something against US interest is not going to happen.

Equipment was for Iran in the 80’s and we bought from them as well.

The Iraqis will still need approval to sell to us and we would not be served by vipers with AMRAAM use hardware locked out.

 

[Old School]

Iraq is a banana republic as well as a failed state. Let us partition Iraq and move on. The question is if the partition will take place with or without bloodbath. Same applies to Afghanistan.

 

[Nasr]

You cannot understand this feeling. F-16 is a love. The most beautiful fighter jet ever produced.

Beauty doesn't win wars, not does it attest to a country's right to exercise it's free will.

 

[aliyusuf]

What edge does deltas like Mirages have over normal wing config like F-16/Thunders.?

Mirage-3/5 Delta-Wing family are widely regarded as very stable weapons platform with a good payload for it's era. But being a conventional tailless delta it is restricted in medium to slow speed maneuverability (the usual speed domain for WVR dogfights).

The whole design is emphasized to attain the highest Mach number at the Tropopause. It has proved excellent, however, as a Ground Attack aircraft.

The Mirage-3/5 family owe their success greatly to the mastery of the Pakistani and Israeli pilots ... that made this type world famous ... also it was a very futuristic looking design for it's time.

The Mirage-F1 was a much better design with better maneuverability at all flight envelopes than the Mirage-3/5 family.

The Mirage-2000 is a modern relaxed stability CCV-FBW evolution of the older Mirages. This dramatically improves the maneuverability of the traditional tailless delta and it's canard like intake strakes help spread flow vortices that further enhance that maneuverability.

The introduction of the full fledged canards, like in the EuroFighter, Rafale and J-10 ... further enhances the flow vortices based response.

The most superb dedicated strike fighter i.e. Tornado was not a delta wing design but a swing wing one. Which gave excellent low level and high level ride performance. The low level smoothness of flight at tansonic speeds (vital for strike missions) of Tornado, is unsurpassed to this day.

 

[925boy]

Let's face it, the U.S should maybe have thought of all this prior to committing assassinations on Iraqi soil

The very fact that billions in Iraqi investment is at the point of becoming useless unless they allow the U.S ability to use it's soil for its own nefarious interests

Tells me everything I want to know

Again a great weapons system is worthless if you can't use it

Bro, your posts in this thread a 100% on point. Cheers!

You cannot understand this feeling. F-16 is a love. The most beautiful fighter jet ever produced.

But you cant mistake this "FEELING" you're going to get when US halts supply of parts or weapons for Pakistan's F-16s. US can yank that at anytime..just saying...