Onus of Creating Environment for Talks is on Pakistan, Says Arun Jaitley

[graphican]

Your silliness knows no limitation. You think the world community would sit by with you attacking a ship in international waters? Then you expect the Russians & the Chinese to take your side against Indian retaliation. No one is that stupid or that deluded. excepting your types.

Modi's interest in the China-Pakistan corridor is limited to it cutting though the territory of Kashmir. If you haven't figured out the diplomatic reasoning, there is very little to say.

I count on China for a valid reason for its trading route going through Pakistan. Russia too will have a dependency on Pakistan for the same reason and this is not your delusion "international community", these the countries with their real stakes in Pakistan.

And your band manners doesn't add more weightage to your post. Let this be a warning before you'r frustration is reported.

 

[Bang Galore]

I count on China for a valid reason for its trading route going through Pakistan. Russia too will have a dependency on Pakistan for the same reason and this is not your delusion "international community", these the countries with their real stakes in Pakistan.

All the more reason for them not to take any stupidity from Pakistan lightly. They are all trading nations & understand what the consequences of attacking trade ships will be. Not that India will care if Pakistan attacks one of her ships. Only the absolutely deluded will believe otherwise.

And your band manners doesn't add more weightage to your post. Let this be a warning before you'r frustration is reported.

Have no idea what you are about here but feel free to report anything you wish.

why did india release that colonel Probhit who attack on innocent Pakistanies in Samjotha Express...
Grow up, these kind of ladies talk will get you nothing.. either open your heart of get the grudge out once for all.
we are ready either way~

Err....Lt.Col Purohit had never been charged in the Samjauta case. He remains in jail as of now for the Malegaon blasts case though there is a good possibility of bail since he has been behind bars for nearly 5 years in that case.

 

[graphican]

All the more reason for them not to take any stupidity from Pakistan lightly. They are all trading nations & understand what the consequences of attacking trade ships will be. Not that India will care if Pakistan attacks one of her ships. Only the absolutely deluded will believe otherwise.

Have no idea what you are about here but feel to report anything you wish.

Trading by enemy nations. Even Pakistan and India has trade but doesn't stop us from pulling the guns when needed. Are your strategist deluded when they talk of two-front war whenever there is a war with Pakistan? May be they are less wiser than the guy with have in the form.

In 2001, 2002 border stand-off, India was so pissed because of having no-fly zone over Pakistan that it placed it on the top of items it wanted to ease first. India too had barred Pakistan but we always used Chinese territory to fly instead. India doesn't have this leverage, not over the land and not over the sea and your threats won't stop us if we decide to cut your route short. Now tell me you cannot stop civil flights to fly-over your territory instead.

Discussion is leading no where but we both have heard each other. And its good to note you refrained using personal comments this time. I will surely not refrain from reporting if needed and thanks for encouraging me more.

 

[Bang Galore]

Trading by enemy nations. Even Pakistan and India has trade but doesn't stop us from pulling the guns when needed. Are your strategist deluded when they talk of two-front war whenever there is aware with Pakistan? May be they are less wiser than the guy with have in the form.

In 2001, 2002 border stand-off, India was so pissed because of having no-fly zone over Pakistan that it placed it on the top of items it wanted to ease first. India too had barred Pakistan but we always used Chinese territory to fly instead. India doesn't have this leverage, not over the land and not over the sea and your threats won't stop us if we decide to cut your route short.

Discussion is leading no where but we both have heard each other. And its good to note you refrained using personal comments this time. I will surely not refrain from reporting if needed and thanks for encouraging me more.

Never personal, all comments directed at the post . Kindly go through your own posts before attempting to show anyone a mirror.

As for the rest of your post, that is my point. Fighting is different, no one is about to attack in international shipping corridors as a matter of routine. Period. Any such attempts will be seen as an act of aggression & will be responded to. Pakistan is weakest in any comparison between navies. No one is about to start a act of aggression that they can only lose.

T
In 2001, 2002 border stand-off, India was so pissed because of having no-fly zone over Pakistan that it placed it on the top of items it wanted to ease first. India too had barred Pakistan but we always used Chinese territory to fly instead.

Overstated. No flights other than those starting from Delhi would fly over Pakistani territory. See a map if you wish. Flights over China is not cheap either, bypassing Pakistan will place only a slight increase in cost for those in the vicinity of Delhi. Would matters absolutely not to anyone else.

 

[graphican]

Never personal, all comments directed at the post . Kindly go through your own posts before attempting to show anyone a mirror.

As for the rest of your post, that is my point. Fighting is different, no one is about to attack in international shipping corridors as a matter of routine. Period. Any such attempts will be seen as an act of aggression & will be responded to. Pakistan is weakest in any comparison between navies. No one is about to start a act of aggression that they can only lose.

Just as stopping the civil aircraft above your territory is seen aggression? None of your civilian aircrafts were attacked but they knew they were barred and they acted accordingly. Instead Pakistan had only taken this measure after India refused Pakistan to fly above its region so onus is on India first.

I am not telling you what is coming ahead but telling you what is India's dependency for its trade through our waters. We don't have to burn your vessels to tell you that they are barred.

Overstated. No flights other than those starting from Delhi would fly over Pakistani territory. See a map if you wish. Flights over China is not cheap either, bypassing Pakistan will place only a slight increase in cost for those in the vicinity of Delhi. Would matters absolutely not to anyone else.

Perhaps you want to refresh your memory about the incident.
"The Indian ambassador in Islamabad was recalled to Delhi, road and rail links were broken off, and flights by Pakistani airlines over Indian territory were disallowed."
Source: THE INDIA-PAKISTAN CONFLICT - TOWARDS THE FAILURE OF NUCLEAR DETERRENCE

As a counter measure, Pakistan too denied India all flights above its territory. Delhi or Islamabad bound flight might have been exception as they were bound to land within the territory. But the "pain" India went though was having no access to Pakistan's airspace for any flights passing above. Your opinion is that it is illegal and you cannot do that but we have seen this happening and we can see this happening and Pakistan has capacity to do that with minimal tools. India doesn't have leverage to offend Pakistan and still expect it would be able to pass through under its nose with no issues and this is where its dependency upon good relationship comes into picture.

Now let me reiterate my original statement, India is dependent on Pakistan for its energy and trade requirements and Pakistan is not dependent upon India for either of those.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

All the more reason for them not to take any stupidity from Pakistan lightly. They are all trading nations & understand what the consequences of attacking trade ships will be. Not that India will care if Pakistan attacks one of her ships. Only the absolutely deluded will believe otherwise.



Have no idea what you are about here but feel free to report anything you wish.




Err....Lt.Col Purohit had never been charged in the Samjauta case. He remains in jail as of now for the Malegaon blasts case though there is a good possibility of bail since he has been behind bars for nearly 5 years in that case.

Its ur law u will never charge hindu over muslims massacrs...we all know what india all about rulling over minorities.
Mr.lakhvi was never charged by court so stop brining him in discussion to prove ur stupid point.

 

[Bang Galore]

Just as stopping the civil aircraft above your territory is seen aggression? None of your civilian aircrafts were attacked but they knew they were barred and they acted accordingly.

That was within territorial boundaries, Indian ships will be in international waters, not yours.

I am not telling you what is coming ahead but telling you what is India's dependency for its trade through our waters. We don't have to burn your vessels to tell you that they are barred.

Not your waters.International waters.

Perhaps you want to refresh your memory about the incident.
"The Indian ambassador in Islamabad was recalled to Delhi, road and rail links were broken off, and flights by Pakistani airlines over Indian territory were disallowed."
Source: THE INDIA-PAKISTAN CONFLICT - TOWARDS THE FAILURE OF NUCLEAR DETERRENCE

As a counter measure, Pakistan too denied India all flights above its territory. Delhi or Islamabad bound flight might have been exception as they were bound to land within the territory. But the "pain" India went though was having no access to Pakistan's airspace for any flights passing above. Your opinion is that it is illegal and you cannot do that but we have seen this happening and we can see this happening and Pakistan has capacity to do that with minimal tools. India doesn't have leverage to offend Pakistan and still expect it would be able to pass through under its nose with no issues and this is where its dependency upon good relationship comes into picture.

As I said, it only affects the flights that take off from Delhi & Punjab. No flights from Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad or Chennai fly into Pakistani airspace. I never said that barring flights were illegal, attacking ships in international waters is undoubtedly so.

Now let me reiterate my original statement, India is dependent on Pakistan for its energy and trade requirements and Pakistan is not dependent upon India for either of those.

Nope. India is not dependent on Pakistan for anything concerning trade & energy. How on earth do you think India is functioning if we are dependent on Pakistan?

This was you bringing in military action as a means to deter trade. I explained why that won't happen without sever consequences for Pakistan.

Its ur law u will never charge hindu over muslims massacrs...we all know what india all about rulling over minorities.

You made an patently false assertion that I refuted. As for the rest, read up.

Mr.lakhvi was never charged by court so stop brining him in discussion to prove ur stupid point.

Of course he was charged. Even if you seem to know nothing about it. Why do you think he was in jail?

 

[notorious_eagle]

Yeah like there was a lot of peace during the non-RSS Manmohan Singh's time.....

A peace accord was almost reached between Musharraf and Manmohan, but the Indians were hesitant to sign it. Later on when the PPP formed the Government, the Indians wanted the exact same deal but the PPP Government refused to entertain it. History, read up on it please.

Give it a rest, no one is buying that argument. India-Pakistan relations were bad long before Modi got into the picture, if anything, events like 26/11 propelled Modi to the centre stage.

Good, and Indian belligerence and support for terrorism inside Pakistan has convinced even the most die hard Indian lover Nawaz Sharif that peace with India simply cannot be achieved.

Modi does not need to do anything, you don't seem to understand the discussion topic. Modi is doing just that - nothing.

Not really, he has increased funding for terrorist groups operating inside Pakistan. I hardly call that doing nothing, and off course increased sabre rattling through his statements and also that of his Ministers.

Pakistan is not on his bucket list of things to do, it is in the much shorter list of things to manage.

That is why he does not let an opportunity pass to try and put down Pakistan. Count how many statements has he given against Pakistan compared to NS. His obsession with Pakistan is quite evident with the sheer number of statements he and his Ministers have given against Pakistan. Actions speak louder than words.

Ramzan wishes are just that, there is almost no appetite in India for talks with Pakistan.

Fine

That is not just in the political environment alone, most Indians seem to have less & less interest in a possible better relationship with Pakistan, a point alluded to by the former NSA Shivshankar Menon who said that outside of a small section of Punjabis, there is no real interest among Indians for attempting better relationship with Pakistan. He pointed out that this was primarily the outcome from 26/11.

Fine.

Pakistan can live without India and thrive. As things are heading in the right direction, i can see that the Indian Strategic Planners and Indian Media are having a panic attack.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

That was within territorial boundaries, Indian ships will be in international waters, not yours.



Not your waters.International waters.





As I said, it only affects the flights that take off from Delhi & Punjab. No flights from Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad or Chennai fly into Pakistani airspace. I never said that barring flights were illegal, attacking ships in international waters is undoubtedly so.



Nope. India is not dependent on Pakistan for anything concerning trade & energy. How on earth do you think India is functioning if we are dependent on Pakistan?

This was you bringing in military action as a means to deter trade. I explained why that won't happen without sever consequences for Pakistan.



You made an patently false assertion that I refuted. As for the rest, read up.



Of course he was charged. Even if you seem to know nothing about it. Why do you think he was in jail?

He was in jail cuz india was crying but failed to produce evidence... other than Pakistani ciggrette bud tooth paste and stuff..
We dont expect any good from u neither u have anything good to say...
Keep up the denial mood..

 

[Bang Galore]

A peace accord was almost reached between Musharraf and Manmohan, but the Indians were hesitant to sign it. Later on when the PPP formed the Government, the Indians wanted the exact same deal but the PPP Government refused to entertain it. History, read up on it please.

I have read enough about it & it all comes down to Musharraf losing his way with the lawyers agitation. The very fact that the PPP government backtracked proved right what many in India doubted, whether Pakistan would simply resile from its position once Musharraf was no more in the seat. The deal was to be between India & Pakistan, no point if someone repudiated Musharraf's agreement as being of no consequence.

Good, and Indian belligerence and support for terrorism inside Pakistan has convinced even the most die hard Indian lover Nawaz Sharif that peace with India simply cannot be achieved.

Likewise.

Not really, he has increased funding for terrorist groups operating inside Pakistan. I hardly call that doing nothing, and off course increased sabre rattling through his statements and also that of his Ministers.

Evidence for any increase or even funding is not available except in the very fertile imaginations of some. As for Sabre rattling, that is not much of an issue. Your politicians & army chiefs have been doing it for years on Kashmir.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I have read enough about it & it all comes down to Musharraf losing his way with the lawyers agitation.

Indeed, but before the movement when Musharraf as the at peak of his power the peace deal could have been signed with the full backing of the Establishment. India was the one which hesitated, not Pakistan. Another example of how Pakistan wants to achieve peace but India with its mindset of 'perpetual hatred' is not ready to come to peace terms with Pakistan.

The very fact that the PPP government backtracked proved right what many in India doubted, whether Pakistan would simply resile from its position once Musharraf was no more in the seat.

Not really, if India would have signed the deal it would have been with the State of Pakistan, thus PPP Government would have no choice but to accept it. A similar comparison could be made with the Economic Corridor with China, no matter which political party is in the Federal Government, they have to honour that agreement.

The only reason why the PPP Government backed out is because they did not want to give Musharraf any credit and were hell bent on destroying any legacy Musharraf left. I guess those many doubters in India predicted wrong and continued on with their policy of 'perpetual hatred'.

The deal was to be between India & Pakistan, no point if someone repudiated Musharraf's agreement as being of no consequence.

If it would have been signed than yes, it was between the States and not any political entity.

Evidence for any increase or even funding is not available except in the very fertile imaginations of some.

I don't think you know how the world of espionage works, there is never any hard evidence left unless there is a major fu** up. This is why India is yet to furnish any credible evidence linking any terrorist attacks within India with the State of Pakistan. There is a reason why the US Government has set a bounty of $10 million to solicit evidence against HS, they themselves don't have a smoking gun. Your hired guns are singing like birds and revealing everything during interrogation, those consulates are not there to give visas to poor Afghans.

As for Sabre rattling, that is not much of an issue. Your politicians & army chiefs have been doing it for years on Kashmir.

There was not any sabre rattling from the Pakistani side, it began from India and than answered by Pakistan. I can tell you one thing that there was genuine interest from the Pakistani side whether the Army or the Political Leadership to achieve peace with India. This is why NS went to India for Modi's inauguration and a follow up visit, but with the way he was treated in India has left a really sour taste especially on NS mouth who could have been considered at the time a genuine Indian Lover.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Your hired guns are singing like birds and revealing everything during interrogation, those consulates are not there to give visas to poor Afghans.

So why is Pakistan not making transcripts or interrogation videos of theses hired guns available to the public?

India has provided interrogation of Kasab and Headly to the public.

 

[Luca1]

Doesn't get more silly than that. What do you think India's response will be to that provocation?

Use Brahmos to shoot does Pakistani planes?

 

[Bang Galore]

Indeed, but before the movement when Musharraf as the at peak of his power the peace deal could have been signed with the full backing of the Establishment. India was the one which hesitated, not Pakistan. Another example of how Pakistan wants to achieve peace but India with its mindset of 'perpetual hatred' is not ready to come to peace terms with Pakistan.

Hardly logical. If there was perpetual hatred, they would never have come close to an agreement in the first place. I prefer to stick with the version I said which has not been repudiated by anyone in the know.

Not really, if India would have signed the deal it would have been with the State of Pakistan, thus PPP Government would have no choice but to accept it. A similar comparison could be made with the Economic Corridor with China, no matter which political party is in the Federal Government, they have to honour that agreement.

Undermining such an agreement would have been very easy with the use of non-state actors. It was not just the PPP government but the Pakistani army that pulled back its support for the agreement after Musharraf's exit. The stated reason by Gen. Kayani was that he did not want to offend the Islamists. Fat chance that the agreement would have stood.

The only reason why the PPP Government backed out is because they did not want to give Musharraf any credit and were hell bent on destroying any legacy Musharraf left. I guess those many doubters in India predicted wrong and continued on with their policy of 'perpetual hatred'.

Not really, there were two reasons apart from what you suggest . The first was the army's withdrawal of support & the second was that there were protests in Kashmir during that summer & the PPP government thought that they could push for more. (there is a television discussion between Musharraf & Indian opposition leader Jaswant Singh moderated by Tim Sebastian where there is a clear mention b y Jaswant Singh & Musharraf acknowledging that Pakistan was resiling from its positions). The doubters were not wrong in India. If however you wish to see every action as "perpetual hatred", that is your choice. There remains tremendous appreciation in India towards Musharraf for his role in this matter.

I don't think you know how the world of espionage works, there is never any hard evidence left unless there is a major fu** up. This is why India is yet to furnish any credible evidence linking any terrorist attacks within India with the State of Pakistan. There is a reason why the US Government has set a bounty of $10 million to solicit evidence against HS, they themselves don't have a smoking gun. Your hired guns are singing like birds and revealing everything during interrogation, those consulates are not there to give visas to poor Afghans.

So you say. Only you say.....

There was not any sabre rattling from the Pakistani side, it began from India and than answered by Pakistan. I can tell you one thing that there was genuine interest from the Pakistani side whether the Army or the Political Leadership to achieve peace with India. This is why NS went to India for Modi's inauguration and a follow up visit, but with the way he was treated in India has left a really sour taste especially on NS mouth who could have been considered at the time a genuine Indian Lover.

Nawaz Sharif didn't just go on his own, he was invited as a gesture of friendship by Mr.Modi. While politically brave of NS to go, understand that the movement was on both sides.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Hardly logical. If there was perpetual hatred, they would never have come close to an agreement in the first place. I prefer to stick with the version I said which has not been repudiated by anyone in the know.

Agreements are signed between States, not Political Governments. Read up on that

Undermining such an agreement would have been very easy with the use of non-state actors. It was not just the PPP government but the Pakistani army that pulled back its support for the agreement after Musharraf's exit. The stated reason by Gen. Kayani was that he did not want to offend the Islamists. Fat chance that the agreement would have stood.

Looks like you have been hallucinating

Not really, there were two reasons apart from what you suggest . The first was the army's withdrawal of support & the second was that there were protests in Kashmir during that summer & the PPP government thought that they could push for more. (there is a television discussion between Musharraf & Indian opposition leader Jaswant Singh moderated by Tim Sebastian where there is a clear mention b y Jaswant Singh & Musharraf acknowledging that Pakistan was resiling from its positions). The doubters were not wrong in India. If however you wish to see every action as "perpetual hatred", that is your choice. There remains tremendous appreciation in India towards Musharraf for his role in this matter.

Good, but you can spin however you can like it, facts are that both countries missed a golden opportunity to achieve peace. Read up on the interview of Khursheed Kasuri

So you say. Only you say.....

Just like you say, you say

Nawaz Sharif didn't just go on his own, he was invited as a gesture of friendship by Mr.Modi. While politically brave of NS to go, understand that the movement was on both sides.

It was a very calculated diplomatic move by Modi, invite him because either or NS had to accept and than humiliate him. I am glad Modi put NS in his place as NS has the intelligence of a turtle.